Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[1ofthem]

The consequences negate freewill ... he was able to rebel against God's will and that is what he did.

If he had freewill Adam would have chosen to sin but not die ... that was the deception the devil perpetrated on him.

Human freewill is that deception

Human freewill pretty much boils down to self will. It is not a super power in anyway. We can chose to follow God or not, but we have no choice in the consequences or judgment of God that follows that decision. He already said Believe upon Jesus or Perish. There is no way to change that outcome.

Self will is found in the soul realm of man. There are three components of the soul of man; self will, intellect (thoughts or mind), and emotions. Self will says I want, I don't want, I will or I won't. It has no other power but choice. In order to be saved we have to put our trust in Jesus and submit that self will to the Spirit. If we don't then we will reap the consequences.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, lights up the way, and leads (draws) us to JESUS. It is our choice whether to submit our self will to the Spirit and trust in Jesus or not. In order to be born again we have to repent, turn and submit our self will to the Lord. After doing that, the spirit within us is regenerated (born again). The spirit comes back to life, all sin is forgiven. There is no more separation between us and God. We are then able to have direct communion with God and walk with the HIM in the Spirit .

 

[1ofthem]

It's pretty straight forward in scripture. Romans 10 is clear.

We have to believe and obey the gospel through faith. Jesus said deny yourself and take up your cross and follow me.

Deny yourself = submitting your self will to God putting all faith in Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The debate about free will is so frivolous as to be laughable at times. You, and I, and he, and she, and all others know very well that any one of us can choose and have a will that is able to choose.

Of course!

Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. It never has been, and never will be, by "faith alone".

Eph 2:8 is clear: we are saved by GRACE, through faith. Sad that so many people want to add works to the equation.

You take grace out of the equation, or you take Jesus out of the equation, and you will not have salvation.

Eph 2:8 is obviously about Jesus.

Salvation is not by "faith alone." (Unless there is a Scripture that states so?!)

Here's the issue. There are NO verses that include anything OTHER THAN faith. So it is alone. And it's all GRACE.

Saved "regardless of what follows"? One is saved when one believes in Jesus Christ.

What I said is supported by Scripture.

Rom 8-
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The blue words clearly indicate that there is NOTHING in the future that can result in being separated from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.

The person who is not believing in Jesus Christ is not saved -- period!

You are assuming that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved. What Scripture says that? None whatsoever.

Instead we have these verses:
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

These 2 verses are clear. Condemnation (lake of fire) is for those who "have not believed", meaning NEVER believed.

No believing in Jesus = no salvation.

If a person dies without having ever believed in Christ, they ARE condemned.

Those who HAVE believed in Christ will NEVER be condemned.

There is no way to believe in the man-made doctrine of eternal security without taking away free choice from the Christian.

What does eternal security have to do with free choice??

You call eternal security a "man-made doctrine". You are only half right.

Jesus said this: "I give them (believers) eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." John 10:28

But your comments reveal that you do not believe this at all.

Jesus is truly human. And He is also truly God.

You should believe what Jesus said. When He gives eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

So, when does He give the gift of eternal life?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The word "has" shows that from the moment of believing in Christ, the believer HAS eternal life.

So Jesus' promise in John 10:28 is from the moment of believing.

 

[Chester]

Of course!


Eph 2:8 is clear: we are saved by GRACE, through faith. Sad that so many people want to add works to the equation.


Eph 2:8 is obviously about Jesus.


Here's the issue. There are NO verses that include anything OTHER THAN faith. So it is alone. And it's all GRACE.


What I said is supported by Scripture.

Rom 8-
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The blue words clearly indicate that there is NOTHING in the future that can result in being separated from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.


You are assuming that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved. What Scripture says that? None whatsoever.

Instead we have these verses:
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

These 2 verses are clear. Condemnation (lake of fire) is for those who "have not believed", meaning NEVER believed.


If a person dies without having ever believed in Christ, they ARE condemned.

Those who HAVE believed in Christ will NEVER be condemned.


What does eternal security have to do with free choice??

You call eternal security a "man-made doctrine". You are only half right.

Jesus said this: "I give them (believers) eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." John 10:28

But your comments reveal that you do not believe this at all.

Jesus is truly human. And He is also truly God.

You should believe what Jesus said. When He gives eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

So, when does He give the gift of eternal life?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The word "has" shows that from the moment of believing in Christ, the believer HAS eternal life.

So Jesus' promise in John 10:28 is from the moment of believing.

LOL! You may believe what you want based on your interpretation and putting together of Scripture and definitions. That is your prerogative and right.

I will simply rest my faith in Jesus finished work at Calvary and live my life for His honor and glory! PTL for His grace and honor and the assurance of salvation that comes from believing in Him today.

 

[FreeGrace2]

LOL! You may believe what you want based on your interpretation and putting together of Scripture and definitions. That is your prerogative and right.

Tell ya what. Since you disagree with my "putting together of Scripture and definitions", how about addressing those points that you think I got wrong. Explain how they are wrong and correct me please. I would appreciate it.

I will simply rest my faith in Jesus finished work at Calvary and live my life for His honor and glory! PTL for His grace and honor and the assurance of salvation that comes from believing in Him today.

But since it seems clear that you believe that those who, for a variety of reasons, cease to believe, are no longer saved and will end up in the lake of fire.

And that, my friend, shows that you do NOT believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.

What He said disallows your belief. That is your perogative and right. Which I strongly disagree with.

Please explain to me how Rom 8:38 and the words "and things future" cannot include what happened to the second soil, who "believed for a while, but in time of testing/temptation fell away".

Thanks.

 

[OIC1965]

Good post by Brother Gregg Jackson on the subject of Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security'

"Calvinists all claim to believe in eternal security (OSAS) & teach you can't lose your salvation IF you "truly believed" which of course is (according to them) determined by your fruit, works, how much you sin, habitual sins etc...

CALVINIST Eternal Security is FAR different from BIBLICAL Eternal Security which GUARANTEES every born again believer is Eternally Saved, Sealed, Sanctified & Secure the INSTANT they trust in Christ alone as savior (by believing The Gospel) regardless of how they may live SUBSEQUENT to being born again.

A born again believer SHOULD live lives (as empowered by The Holy Spirit) that are holy, righteous and set apart unto The Lord.
But it is neither a REQUIREMENT for salvation nor EVIDENCE of "genuine salvation."
Many works salvationists (Calvinist/Lordshippers & Arminians) call this (as a pejorative) "easy believism," "greasy grace" and "giving people a license to sin."

But it's what The Bible says is true...
Salvation is either a FREE GIFT procured and realized by faith ALONE in Jesus Christ ALONE the very NANOSECOND a person believes or it's not.
Period..."

Salvation is a gift and by Grace alone. But justification is not the only part of salvation that God has graced us with. It’s the door of entry, but God desires that we walk the breadth and the width and the heights of His wonderful gift to us

 

[Evmur]

The debate about free will is so frivolous as to be laughable at times. You, and I, and he, and she, and all others know very well that any one of us can choose and have a will that is able to choose.

Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. It never has been, and never will be, by "faith alone". You take grace out of the equation, or you take Jesus out of the equation, and you will not have salvation. Salvation is not by "faith alone." (Unless there is a Scripture that states so?!)

Saved "regardless of what follows"? One is saved when one believes in Jesus Christ. The person who is not believing in Jesus Christ is not saved -- period! No believing in Jesus = no salvation. There is no way to believe in the man-made doctrine of eternal security without taking away free choice from the Christian.

It is the most important argument in the church. Which is why we who reject the doctrine of human freewill are ridiculed and howled at.

What you describe is the human will which I do not deny, what I deny is that is free. If we are doing our will, even if we serve God after "our own freewill" then because the human will is in bondage we will be led further and further into bondage and out of God's will for our lives, even though we are saved.

When we are saved we SUBMIT our will to God, this is what receiving Christ as Lord means.

To go back to doing our own will is to backslide. The church which by and large believes and preaches human freewill is in a backslidden condition ... we ought to be doing God's good and perfect will.

 

[Evmur]

Turning "the thing inside out"? -- No, I am actually just stating what I have learned and seen by experience. Belief in the man-made doctrine of "eternal security" militates against assurance of salvation. If you don't do enough good works, or if you do some bad works, then people will wonder if you are really saved! Better work harder, brother, to prove you really got saved!

Now how am I depending on my "external actions for proof"? My assurance is based 100% upon my belief in Jesus Christ and his all-sufficient atonement and resurrection. (But note that I am not depending on my decision - new birth - of 30 years ago: I am depending simply on the fact that today I am believing in Jesus Christ)

And amen that the grace of God does an actual work in the heart! PTL! The grace of God brings about a beauty, a relationship, and a love that is "out of this world" - Yes and amen!! PTL!

eternal life = eternal security

 

[Evmur]

The only proof possible would be Scripture stating this. And there isn't any. You want to claim God is the cause of man believing, but you have no proof. And you hide behind your very faulty understanding (misunderstanding, actually) of what free will even is.


Don't use this garbage as an excuse to deny free will. The only issue regarding salvation is whether the person put their faith alone in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, as the Son of God. If that occurs, they ARE saved, regardless of what follows.

gobbledegook

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is the most important argument in the church. Which is why we who reject the doctrine of human freewill are ridiculed and howled at.

There is no logic in your arguments.

What you describe is the human will which I do not deny, what I deny is that is free.

And we howl at your total lack of understanding of what free will even is. You guys like to describe FW as having some kind of power to do things. Why can't you understand that free will means ONLY the freedom to choose? Why is that so hard to digest or accept?

If we are doing our will, even if we serve God after "our own freewill" then because the human will is in bondage we will be led further and further into bondage and out of God's will for our lives, even though we are saved.

You continue to misunderstand that man, both saved and unsaved, are free to make decisions.

Please answer this: if you aren't free to make decisions, who is making yours?

If you claim that you make your own decisions, please welcome free will to your life.

When we are saved we SUBMIT our will to God, this is what receiving Christ as Lord means.

No, we are supposed to. We ought to. And that is a decision every believer makes.

To go back to doing our own will is to backslide.

Correct. And that is a decision. A choice. And it is a free choice. (free will)

The church which by and large believes and preaches human freewill is in a backslidden condition ... we ought to be doing God's good and perfect will.

Right. We OUGHT TO BE doing God's will. The very word "ought" proves a choice is involved.

So, if we don't have free will, we CAN'T make that choice.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The only proof possible would be Scripture stating this. And there isn't any. You want to claim God is the cause of man believing, but you have no proof. And you hide behind your very faulty understanding (misunderstanding, actually) of what free will even is.

gobbledegook

Are you having a problem reading plain English?

Where do you think your comprehension problem stems from?

 

[phil36]

free will means ONLY the freedom to choose?

There's a couple of things to note with regards to freewill. When we talk about freewill within the context of salvation we are referring to man's moral will. We all make voluntary choices every single day. When you say free will, what are you saying you ''will'' is free from?

Miriam-webster dictionary says this about freewill:

Definition of free will (Entry 2 of 2)

1: voluntary choice or decisionI do this of my own free will

2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention


No 1 is very true we make voluntary choice every single day in fact just reaching out to lift your coffee cup is a voluntary action.

No2. Now here is where things get a little tougher. Because in the discussion of freewill as concerning salvation we are referring to moral will, or man's moral ability to choose faith. Not whether he can choose when to lift his coffee cup to his mouth and drunk, or what colour he wants his new shirt to be.

If you say man can freely choose morally from his own dead in sin state without any intervention from God or a prior cause (God), then you have fallen into the pelagian heresy.

So the question is what do you mean by freewill.. what is man's will in his sinful nature free from (morally).

Also remember that when men/woman are not yet in Christ their wills are in bondage to sin/enslaved by sin.. all their 'moral' choices made will be inline with their moral state - sinful... Unpleasing to God.

Be very careful, if you say that man can come to faith without Divine intervention, this is unbiblical.

 

[Chester]

eternal life = eternal security

eternal life = just that - it is eternal life

"eternal security" is a man-made statement of doctrine based on man's interpretation of Scripture

 

[FreeGrace2]

There's a couple of things to note with regards to freewill. When we talk about freewill within the context of salvation we are referring to man's moral will. We all make voluntary choices every single day. When you say free will, what are you saying you ''will'' is free from?

I don't say the "will" is free FROM anything. I say the will is free to choose from among options.

Miriam-webster dictionary says this about freewill:

Definition of free will (Entry 2 of 2)

1: voluntary choice or decisionI do this of my own free will
2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

No 1 is very true we make voluntary choice every single day in fact just reaching out to lift your coffee cup is a voluntary action.

I agree with all this.

No2. Now here is where things get a little tougher. Because in the discussion of freewill as concerning salvation we are referring to moral will, or man's moral ability to choose faith. Not whether he can choose when to lift his coffee cup to his mouth and drunk, or what colour he wants his new shirt to be.

I don't see any issue with what the choice concerns. Why would one need to add "moral" to will concerning salvation? When the offer of salvation through faith is presented to a person, they are faced with a choice; to believe what God says or not. It's that simple. It's not "a little tougher" as you say.

If you say man can freely choose morally from his own dead in sin state without any intervention from God or a prior cause (God), then you have fallen into the pelagian heresy.

We can chuck ol' pelagian heresy away. The reality is that God created man with a conscience with which to recognize right and wrong. Romans 2:14,15 says so.

So, why would God create man with a conscience that understands right from wrong but not give man ability to choose between right and wrong? I don't see how that makes sense.

So the question is what do you mean by freewill.. what is man's will in his sinful nature free from (morally).

Since God created man with a conscience, and Paul wasn't speaking of Adam, but Gentiles in Rom 2, it is obvious that Paul was speaking about humans beings, not just Adam.

So, yes, unbelieving and unregenerate man CAN believe the gospel message.

Also remember that when men/woman are not yet in Christ their wills are in bondage to sin/enslaved by sin.. all their 'moral' choices made will be inline with their moral state - sinful... Unpleasing to God.

This does not mean or prove that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel.

Be very careful, if you say that man can come to faith without Divine intervention, this is unbiblical.

Let me be clear. God has ALREADY "intervened" as you call it.

How so?

1. Rom 1:19-21 says that God has revealed Himself to humanity through creation, revealing His divine nature and attributes, so that man has NO excuse for NOT recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him.
2. God created man with a conscience in order to recognize right and wrong.

What else do you think God "must do" before man is able to believe?

 

[FreeGrace2]

eternal life = just that - it is eternal life

"eternal security" is a man-made statement of doctrine based on man's interpretation of Scripture

Could you then explain what Jesus was saying in John 10:28? Thanks.

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

Jesus is fully man and fully God. So saying "eternal security" is a "man-made statement" you would be half right. It's also a God-made statement.

But, I'm interested in how you understand what Jesus said.

His words are clear. What do they mean?

 

[Kidron]

The only proof possible would be Scripture stating this. And there isn't any. You want to claim God is the cause of man believing, but you have no proof. And you hide behind your very faulty understanding (misunderstanding, actually) of what free will even is.


Don't use this garbage as an excuse to deny free will. The only issue regarding salvation is whether the person put their faith alone in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, as the Son of God. If that occurs, they ARE saved, regardless of what follows.

Its as you say.....

As........How could God ask us to BELIEVE, if we have no free will to do it?
How could there be this damnation.....John 3:36, if BELIEVING was not FREE WILL?

Thomas the Apostle said....."""""Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not BELIEVE.”"""""

So that is a disciple who is with God for 3 yrs, talking about BELIEVING..
What does that mean?
It means that if Thomas was "predestined and ordained as the ELECT", Then when God Showed up, and Thomas knelt and said...."my Lord and my GOD"......then God would have said......."no prob, you are the elect, i was going to make you believe"/...... "free will does not exist"......

 

[phil36]

Miriam-webster dictionary says this about freewill:

Definition of free will (Entry 2 of 2)

1: voluntary choice or decisionI do this of my own free will

2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

I agree with all this.

I would say that the biblical teaching is that God has to intervene for man to be saved.. both Arminian and Reformed theology affirms this.

Pelagianism would agree with the miriam-webster dictionary definition...which you say you agree with.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would say that the biblical teaching is that God has to intervene for man to be saved.. both Arminian and Reformed theology affirms this.

I'm not impressed with either theology.

I already explained how God has already "intervened" so that man CAN believe.

Pelagianism would agree with the miriam-webster dictionary definition...which you say you agree with.

Except I don't agree with point #2. God has already made it possible for man to believe.

All that's left is for man to receive the gift of salvation through faith.

 

[phil36]

I'm not impressed with either theology.

I already explained how God has already "intervened" so that man CAN believe.


Except I don't agree with point #2. God has already made it possible for man to believe.

All that's left is for man to receive the gift of salvation through faith.

Pelagianism would agree with you as well.

 

[Chester]

Could you then explain what Jesus was saying in John 10:28? Thanks.

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

Jesus is fully man and fully God. So saying "eternal security" is a "man-made statement" you would be half right. It's also a God-made statement.

But, I'm interested in how you understand what Jesus said.

His words are clear. What do they mean?

Exactly right: the words are Jesus are clear and they simply mean what they say.

John 10:27,28: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The sheep hear Jesus' voice, He knows them, and they are following Him. And he gives to them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no man can take them out of God's hand . . .

Very wonderful promise to all who are His sheep! PTL!