Could the tribulation start this year?
- Thread starter Blain
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1 Kings 4:29-34:
"And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding beyond measure, and breadth of mind like the sand on the seashore, so that Solomon’s wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the people of the east and all the wisdom of Egypt. For he was wiser than all other men, wiser than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, Calcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol, and his fame was in all the surrounding nations. He also spoke 3,000 proverbs, and his songs were 1,005. He spoke of trees, from the cedar that is in Lebanon to the hyssop that grows out of the wall. He spoke also of beasts, and of birds, and of reptiles, and of fish. And people of all nations came to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and from all the kings of the earth, who had heard of his wisdom."
"And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding beyond measure, and breadth of mind like the sand on the seashore, so that Solomon’s wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the people of the east and all the wisdom of Egypt. For he was wiser than all other men, wiser than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, Calcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol, and his fame was in all the surrounding nations. He also spoke 3,000 proverbs, and his songs were 1,005. He spoke of trees, from the cedar that is in Lebanon to the hyssop that grows out of the wall. He spoke also of beasts, and of birds, and of reptiles, and of fish. And people of all nations came to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and from all the kings of the earth, who had heard of his wisdom."
Covenant Theology seems to be part and parcel with Amillennialism, and so does not reflect a future salvation for the nation Israel. I share with Dispensationalism the hope of a future national Israel.
Where Dispensationalism goes wrong is in its strict differentiation between ages of Israel and the Church. I believe that both are part of the same NT dispensation. And the future Millennial Dispensation likewise will include both Israel and the Christian nations. Israel will be Christian at that time.
Today Israel is in a period of punishment. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have access to grace. On the contrary, the Church was started by a remnant in Israel that accepted grace.
This is usually based on the notion that Antichrist will take his seat in God's temple. 2 Thes 2. 4. Paul knew that the temple was about to be destroyed, and so, he could not have been referring to Herod's temple.
Was he referring to a future Jewish temple that is yet to be built that Antichrist will inhabit? I don't think so. Jewish temple's are not inhabited by kings. And the teaching of Hebrews precludes the resuscitation of another Jewish temple.
Paul could've been saying that Antichrist will position himself as God in heaven, in the same way Antiochus tried to replace the true worship of God with Hellenistic religion in his time.
At any rate, every building of the temple in the past was accompanied by explicit biblical prophecy with some depth and detail. None of this exists with respect to a 3rd temple. On the contrary, Christ is portrayed as the fulfillment of the entire OT temple worship!
Where Dispensationalism goes wrong is in its strict differentiation between ages of Israel and the Church. I believe that both are part of the same NT dispensation. And the future Millennial Dispensation likewise will include both Israel and the Christian nations. Israel will be Christian at that time.
Today Israel is in a period of punishment. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have access to grace. On the contrary, the Church was started by a remnant in Israel that accepted grace.
This is usually based on the notion that Antichrist will take his seat in God's temple. 2 Thes 2. 4. Paul knew that the temple was about to be destroyed, and so, he could not have been referring to Herod's temple.
Was he referring to a future Jewish temple that is yet to be built that Antichrist will inhabit? I don't think so. Jewish temple's are not inhabited by kings. And the teaching of Hebrews precludes the resuscitation of another Jewish temple.
Paul could've been saying that Antichrist will position himself as God in heaven, in the same way Antiochus tried to replace the true worship of God with Hellenistic religion in his time.
At any rate, every building of the temple in the past was accompanied by explicit biblical prophecy with some depth and detail. None of this exists with respect to a 3rd temple. On the contrary, Christ is portrayed as the fulfillment of the entire OT temple worship!
That's my take of CT as well..
OK. I think the age of Israel ended and the Church began after Christ's ascension, which was after He gave the GC to the 11 apostles.
But I do believe that salvation has from Adam's day been faith in the promised Messiah.
My understanding has been that there really won't be Jew or Gentile in the Millennium. Based on Paul's writing:
GAl 3:11 - Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
We know there will be a Jewish temple during the Trib. In fact, it's been reported for several (at least) decades that the Israel has collected all the materials for building a temple, and what is holding them back from starting construction is the question of where to build it.
I think so.
I don't believe God will put His stamp of approval on any future temple. Such a temple will simply be an attempt by Jews to "get back to their roots" by having another temple. But it is obvious that Jesus' sacrifice removed any need or reason for another temple.
One reason could be that this possible 3rd temple is at the very end of life on earth as we know it. So there is no need for more prophesy. It's already been revealed in Revelation.
Right.
Thanks for the explanation.
OK. I think the age of Israel ended and the Church began after Christ's ascension, which was after He gave the GC to the 11 apostles.
But I do believe that salvation has from Adam's day been faith in the promised Messiah.
My understanding has been that there really won't be Jew or Gentile in the Millennium. Based on Paul's writing:
GAl 3:11 - Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
We know there will be a Jewish temple during the Trib. In fact, it's been reported for several (at least) decades that the Israel has collected all the materials for building a temple, and what is holding them back from starting construction is the question of where to build it.
I think so.
I don't believe God will put His stamp of approval on any future temple. Such a temple will simply be an attempt by Jews to "get back to their roots" by having another temple. But it is obvious that Jesus' sacrifice removed any need or reason for another temple.
One reason could be that this possible 3rd temple is at the very end of life on earth as we know it. So there is no need for more prophesy. It's already been revealed in Revelation.
Right.
Thanks for the explanation.
What does it mean to say "the age of Israel ended?" Sure, Israel as a nation is under punishment, but a remnant of Israel remains, and Israel exists as a people, and now as a nation again, just as many nations exist in the present era.
This is why I don't agree with distinguishing the Dispensation of Israel from the Dispensation of the Church. There is little difference between Israel and the other nations in the present age. Some of them convert to be Christians, and the majority end up rejecting Christianity.
There will be a time when Israel returns to being a nation of God, but that is not in the present age. Current Dispensationalist teaching has the age of Israel as beginning in the last 7 years of the present age, with Israel still not yet a Christian nation!
Therefore, I only see a single age, the NT age, during the present time. Israel has entered into an age of punishment, but likewise, other former nations of God have also entered into a time of punishment, such as the Russian nation. They have not, like Israel, gone into dispersion. But they have fallen to an atheistic system that suppresses Christianity, just as the ancient Babylonians suppressed Hebrew worship during their Captivity.
Israel is simply the 1st nation of God to go through extensive punishment in this age. Other former Christian nations have followed suit.
I think Paul here is simply stating that there are no racial qualifications for getting Christian Salvation. He is obviously not stating that there were no longer racial distinctions or national distinctions. And he clearly wasn't speaking of the Millennial Age.
No, I don't think we *know* there will be a future Jewish temple. I'm well aware that Jews have been wanting to restore some kind of temple worship. I've been hearing this for many years, but it's never happened. Why is it even significant? Again, if it is to be a temple built in the proper way, it isn't designed to have a king figure enter into it like a throne room. The temple is designed only for God's presence--not for a ruler to set his throne there. Thus, Antichrist cannot take up any position there, claiming to be God. But it's arguable--this is just my position.
Right, that's my whole point. There's no value in seeing a new temple built, just so that Antichrist can say he's God there! But again, it's arguable.
This is why I don't agree with distinguishing the Dispensation of Israel from the Dispensation of the Church. There is little difference between Israel and the other nations in the present age. Some of them convert to be Christians, and the majority end up rejecting Christianity.
There will be a time when Israel returns to being a nation of God, but that is not in the present age. Current Dispensationalist teaching has the age of Israel as beginning in the last 7 years of the present age, with Israel still not yet a Christian nation!
Therefore, I only see a single age, the NT age, during the present time. Israel has entered into an age of punishment, but likewise, other former nations of God have also entered into a time of punishment, such as the Russian nation. They have not, like Israel, gone into dispersion. But they have fallen to an atheistic system that suppresses Christianity, just as the ancient Babylonians suppressed Hebrew worship during their Captivity.
Israel is simply the 1st nation of God to go through extensive punishment in this age. Other former Christian nations have followed suit.
I think Paul here is simply stating that there are no racial qualifications for getting Christian Salvation. He is obviously not stating that there were no longer racial distinctions or national distinctions. And he clearly wasn't speaking of the Millennial Age.
No, I don't think we *know* there will be a future Jewish temple. I'm well aware that Jews have been wanting to restore some kind of temple worship. I've been hearing this for many years, but it's never happened. Why is it even significant? Again, if it is to be a temple built in the proper way, it isn't designed to have a king figure enter into it like a throne room. The temple is designed only for God's presence--not for a ruler to set his throne there. Thus, Antichrist cannot take up any position there, claiming to be God. But it's arguable--this is just my position.
Right, that's my whole point. There's no value in seeing a new temple built, just so that Antichrist can say he's God there! But again, it's arguable.
I don't believe in Pretrib but I do believe the chruch will be taken out before the wrath is outpoured starting in Rev 6 (end of chapter and starting in Rev 7) They call this in books the PreWrath position somewhat different then PreTrib. I believe in my own study God showed me this around 1979 actually before books started to be written about it and I do get it....many make such claims God told them this or that and no I don't expect someone just to believe God did but just that's what I feel. Tribulation happens IMO between Rev6 but the wrath starts in Rev 7. Many have thought Rev 6 all of it....the seals are the wrath of God...can't be. The fifth seal is persecutions against God's people....why would God bring wrath upon his people. So tribulation is persecution upon the saints....that's not God or his wrath. It's even defined when the wrath of God begins at the start of Rev 7.
Quite frankly I believe there's some of that in scripture as in the number 40 change. ..but biblical numerology I think is a great stretch for me to take too seriously. One needs I think to be careful.
But you are aware correct that a lot of people before 1988 said the generation would be 40 years? The teaching then was Israel became a nation 1948 add 40....1988 Thus the book came out in Christian bookstores, "88 Reasons Why Jesus Will Come Back Before 1988" Then some changed that to say maybe it was from 1967 when Israel took position of Jerusalem ....so add 40....2007. Then well maybe the generation is the 70-80 years.....and some are also saying now 120 years......meaning the ultimate long life God would give to some. Gen 6:3 . I don't know Blain....we'll see. Just don't get too dogmatic about your charts of whatever just know that Jesus is coming back sometime. I would agree with you though....I believe it's in our lifetime.
Quite frankly I believe there's some of that in scripture as in the number 40 change. ..but biblical numerology I think is a great stretch for me to take too seriously. One needs I think to be careful.
But you are aware correct that a lot of people before 1988 said the generation would be 40 years? The teaching then was Israel became a nation 1948 add 40....1988 Thus the book came out in Christian bookstores, "88 Reasons Why Jesus Will Come Back Before 1988" Then some changed that to say maybe it was from 1967 when Israel took position of Jerusalem ....so add 40....2007. Then well maybe the generation is the 70-80 years.....and some are also saying now 120 years......meaning the ultimate long life God would give to some. Gen 6:3 . I don't know Blain....we'll see. Just don't get too dogmatic about your charts of whatever just know that Jesus is coming back sometime. I would agree with you though....I believe it's in our lifetime.
O
I agree with much of the accessment Free Grace 2 said about the temple. The temple will be rebuilt. The coming antichrist will be the one to arrange it with multiple neighbors and Israel. The Tribulation will start the moment this antichrist makes the covenant with many. This antichrist will protect the jews, bring the jews home to Israel, He will be christlike till he enters the temple and claim to ne Almighty God in middle of the tribulation. Israel will be prosperous like the days of Noah and Lot untill the peace and security is taken away. The antichrist will reign in the second half of the Tribulation during the bowl judgements.
The clock started ticking on the day of Pentecost as we entered the age and ministry of the Holy Spirit.
I see a total of three resurrections based on three times all men were to show up at Jerusalem on the feast days. One has already happened at Passover, next one will be Pentecost, and third one will be at end of the millennium reign. The transfiguration is also speaking of the resurrection, Pentecost will be after 6 days, Feast of Tabernacles at the end millenium will be about 8 days.
The Day of the Lord and Daniel's Blessed Day which happens on the 1335th day inside the tribulation is all about the resurrection. Think Peter on the day of Pentecost speaking of the Day of the Lord was without reason. It is the day we assembly to meet the Lord.
The clock started ticking on the day of Pentecost as we entered the age and ministry of the Holy Spirit.
I see a total of three resurrections based on three times all men were to show up at Jerusalem on the feast days. One has already happened at Passover, next one will be Pentecost, and third one will be at end of the millennium reign. The transfiguration is also speaking of the resurrection, Pentecost will be after 6 days, Feast of Tabernacles at the end millenium will be about 8 days.
The Day of the Lord and Daniel's Blessed Day which happens on the 1335th day inside the tribulation is all about the resurrection. Think Peter on the day of Pentecost speaking of the Day of the Lord was without reason. It is the day we assembly to meet the Lord.
I was speaking in the sense of God's plan for human history. There was a time that God dealt with mankind through Israel, His chosen people, who were tasked to preserve and present the gospel to the other nations. They failed. Now that task has been given to Gentiles. That doesn't mean that Israel is "off the map", but God's plan is no longer through them.
Jesus will return at the 2nd Advent in Israel. Obviously He will set up His Millennial kingdom in Israel. Can't imagine anywhere else.
I think there are clear differences, as I indicated above.
Correct. But that will certainly change when Christ returns.
I disagree with those dispensationalists. I think Christ's Millennial kingdom centered IN Israel will have Israel in the spotlight then. I do not consider this to be another "age of Israel", though. All of that was pointing TO Christ. Now that Christ is here, the age of Israel's function is obsolete.
I do believe Paul was removing racial distinctions in his writings. The Jews were extremely biased (racists) towards Gentiles. Paul intended to remove that bias.
In Christ, all believers have the same standing before God. That was hard for Jews to grasp.
As I noted before about the fact that all the building materials for another temple are already in place! They surely expect to build another temple. I think they are waiting for some special "sign" or something. I've heard about a "red heifer" and when they have one, they'll start building. The other issue is where to build. Dome of the Rock is where they want to, but of course, they will need permission from the Arabs.
Since the beast, aka a/c, will be indwelt by Satan himself, who has the biggest God-complex of any creature in the universe, of course it makes sense that this beast would claim to be God himself and enter the temple to make that announcement. I don't care that Antiochus IV did that in 70 AD. I makes total sense to me that the beast will do the same.
I don't think he would take up any position in a temple. He would just use the temple to make his big announcement.
Recall that he and the second beast, false prophet, will have supernatural powers. Claiming to be God will certainly sway many people. Which is exactly what Satan does.
Been fun discussing this with you.
Jesus will return at the 2nd Advent in Israel. Obviously He will set up His Millennial kingdom in Israel. Can't imagine anywhere else.
I think there are clear differences, as I indicated above.
Correct. But that will certainly change when Christ returns.
I disagree with those dispensationalists. I think Christ's Millennial kingdom centered IN Israel will have Israel in the spotlight then. I do not consider this to be another "age of Israel", though. All of that was pointing TO Christ. Now that Christ is here, the age of Israel's function is obsolete.
I do believe Paul was removing racial distinctions in his writings. The Jews were extremely biased (racists) towards Gentiles. Paul intended to remove that bias.
In Christ, all believers have the same standing before God. That was hard for Jews to grasp.
As I noted before about the fact that all the building materials for another temple are already in place! They surely expect to build another temple. I think they are waiting for some special "sign" or something. I've heard about a "red heifer" and when they have one, they'll start building. The other issue is where to build. Dome of the Rock is where they want to, but of course, they will need permission from the Arabs.
Since the beast, aka a/c, will be indwelt by Satan himself, who has the biggest God-complex of any creature in the universe, of course it makes sense that this beast would claim to be God himself and enter the temple to make that announcement. I don't care that Antiochus IV did that in 70 AD. I makes total sense to me that the beast will do the same.
I don't think he would take up any position in a temple. He would just use the temple to make his big announcement.
Recall that he and the second beast, false prophet, will have supernatural powers. Claiming to be God will certainly sway many people. Which is exactly what Satan does.
Been fun discussing this with you.What he said.
I can only find ONE resurrection of the saved, and ONE of the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. {note the singular for EACH resurrection} iow, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Concerning the resurrection of the saved:
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Here we see the only biblical support for a "phased" resurrection. The first phase is Christ's, as the firstfruits. And the, "those who belong to Him", which would include every saved person from Adam forward. And all of that will occur "when He comes", that being the Second Advent.
This is directly supported in Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Red words refer to tribulational martyrs. Blue words indicate their resurrection is when Christ comes back at the 2nd Advent, and they reign with Christ during the Millennium. The green words label this resurrection as the FIRST one.
All these verses taken together show that ALL believers from Adam forward will be resurrected/raptured when Christ returns at the end of the Trib to set up His Millennial kingdom.
I can only find ONE resurrection of the saved, and ONE of the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. {note the singular for EACH resurrection} iow, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Concerning the resurrection of the saved:
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Here we see the only biblical support for a "phased" resurrection. The first phase is Christ's, as the firstfruits. And the, "those who belong to Him", which would include every saved person from Adam forward. And all of that will occur "when He comes", that being the Second Advent.
This is directly supported in Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Red words refer to tribulational martyrs. Blue words indicate their resurrection is when Christ comes back at the 2nd Advent, and they reign with Christ during the Millennium. The green words label this resurrection as the FIRST one.
All these verses taken together show that ALL believers from Adam forward will be resurrected/raptured when Christ returns at the end of the Trib to set up His Millennial kingdom.
This guy can claim to have studied "for years" and hold up a very thick notebook (I think) to show all his study, but it seems he missed several very important verses.
Here are the problems with his view of the world being "left behind".
1. no verses show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
2. the Bible says there are TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. {this proves there are only TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.}
Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
{Bolded words prove these are tribulation martyrs. Red words refer to believer resurrection, and blue words clearly state this resurrection is the FIRST one.}
3. 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
{this verse discusses the FIRST resurrection and shows TWO "phases" or parts. The first one is Christ Himself, the FIRST human being to be resurrected. The blue words refer to every believer from Adam on, since ALL believers from Adam on "belong to Him". To try to narrow this down to just the "Bride of Christ" or NT believers is futile. The green words tell us WHEN the FIRST resurrection of the saved will occur: "then, when He comes". There are NO verses in the Bible that prophesy that Jesus will come before the trib.
4. There is a verse that clearly states WHEN the rapture occurs. It is at the "coming of our Lord".
2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Red words indicate the Second Advent, at the end of the Trib. Blue words indicate the FIRST resurrection and rapture. The green words refer to the FIRST DAY of the time period called "the Day of the Lord". It begins at the end of the Trib when Christ comes back to earth as King of kings and ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His 1,000 year reign. The purple words refer to the Trib and the beast, aka antichrist. The words are clear. The Trib and a/c will occur BEFORE the Second Advent and rapture.
Here are the problems with his view of the world being "left behind".
1. no verses show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
2. the Bible says there are TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. {this proves there are only TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.}
Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
{Bolded words prove these are tribulation martyrs. Red words refer to believer resurrection, and blue words clearly state this resurrection is the FIRST one.}
3. 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
{this verse discusses the FIRST resurrection and shows TWO "phases" or parts. The first one is Christ Himself, the FIRST human being to be resurrected. The blue words refer to every believer from Adam on, since ALL believers from Adam on "belong to Him". To try to narrow this down to just the "Bride of Christ" or NT believers is futile. The green words tell us WHEN the FIRST resurrection of the saved will occur: "then, when He comes". There are NO verses in the Bible that prophesy that Jesus will come before the trib.
4. There is a verse that clearly states WHEN the rapture occurs. It is at the "coming of our Lord".
2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Red words indicate the Second Advent, at the end of the Trib. Blue words indicate the FIRST resurrection and rapture. The green words refer to the FIRST DAY of the time period called "the Day of the Lord". It begins at the end of the Trib when Christ comes back to earth as King of kings and ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His 1,000 year reign. The purple words refer to the Trib and the beast, aka antichrist. The words are clear. The Trib and a/c will occur BEFORE the Second Advent and rapture.
O
Well ZNP, I think you are closer than most and you study diligently.
Consider that the timeline for the antichrist is not the same as the Lord's timetable. The timeline for the antichrist is a full seven years. but the Lord's timeline I see ending 1335th day into the tribulation on Pentecost also called the Blessed day spoken by Daniel. This would be the beginning of the Day of the Lord and the1000 year reign after 6000 years.
At the end of the tribulation those left alive would be judged at sheep/goat judgement.
Consider that the timeline for the antichrist is not the same as the Lord's timetable. The timeline for the antichrist is a full seven years. but the Lord's timeline I see ending 1335th day into the tribulation on Pentecost also called the Blessed day spoken by Daniel. This would be the beginning of the Day of the Lord and the1000 year reign after 6000 years.
At the end of the tribulation those left alive would be judged at sheep/goat judgement.
