predestination vs freewill

[rogerg]

To the hyper calvinists....... who can't prove that God chose you.....

You dont believe you have freewill?

You hate God's Grace ?...... or just feel the carnal compulsion to teach that Grace isn't for everyone, which God hates that you teach?

You believe that God causes all the Evil in the world as if the Devil does not exist. ?

You dont believe that John 3:16 is true. ?

You believe that The Cross is not for the world, its only for the "elect"?

You believe that God left heaven to come down here and die for ......some ?

When you read ..."i would have ALL to be saved"? you dont believe that ALL means All?

When you read. "as many as received Jesus, God gave them power to become the Sons of God".... you think that "as many", means "only the elect"?

When you read "For God so loved the world", you think this means, "for God only chose the elect"?

WHen you read that Jesus said......>"if i be lifted up....(on the Cross), i will draw ALL men to me"......you believe the "all" means only some?

When Jesus said........."Father not my WILL........but your WILL be done", that this isn't free will ???

= Wake up

It almost denies reason that you could have made so many claims and yet have been so wrong in all
of them. Had I not viewed it first-hand, I wouldn't have thought it possible.

Suggestion: before you read the Bible again, please familiarize yourself with the rules and principles it sets forth for
correct biblical interpretation.

 

[rogerg]

The doctrine these people teach, is Blasphemy and its Satanic.

No, believing and trusting in our own works for salvation, instead of trusting in Christ's finished works for
salvation, is what is truly satanic. Readers, please, believe that.

 

[awelight]

Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other apostles in the age to come.



So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Predestined doesn’t somehow mean we are automatically saved and can never become lost.

Each person must choose to obey (follow) Christ.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9






JPT

You come in here, making accusations about the post with points having nothing to do with the post. I am surprised you don't edit the posts like Kidron - then make accusations about things I didn't even say. Comments without context. You guys should work for the liberal media.

But I will give answer to what you have posted and keep it within your post.

You said:
Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other apostles in the age to come.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Quite honestly - I really don't know exactly what to say about this claim because I don't believe I am hearing it being said.

You believe Judas is one of the Elect? You believe Judas was a true believer? You believe Judas obtained Salvation? UNBELIEVABLE !!!!

Judas was chosen, in time, by the Lord to carry out a Predestined Purpose of God. Hear what Scripture says:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 Now he spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for it was he that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Judas was a follower of Christ out of the energy of the flesh. Not out of a true regenerative experience. The same could be said for many church goers. Also, Judas was condemned for his actions - with one of the strongest condemnations of Scripture.... "Woe"

Mat_26:24 The Son of man is going as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Act 1:16 Brethren, it was needful that the scripture should be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was guide to them that took Jesus.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be made desolate, And let no man dwell therein: and, His office let another take.

In Matthew 19:28 - Sitting on the twelve thrones of the twelve tribes of Israel is a promise to the OT Saints, all of the Old Testament Saints, not just to the men Christ was speaking too. This promise, spoken of on Jewish ground, says nothing about Salvation. It simply states that the twelve were present at the time it was spoken. The "following me", is in reference to the ones who will be faithful until death. This Jewish promise has nothing to do with "The Church" which Christ is building. Our future, is to be as a "Priesthood".

Judas was not even present when the Lord instituted the Lord's Super. Why? Because no unsaved person can partake of the Lord's Super. The Lord knows His own and is not going to allow Judas to be present. As such, Judas was "excommunicated" from the assembly, by the High Priest, before it began. In the church today, unsaved people can partake of the Lord's Super but not in a worthy fashion. Again what sayeth the Scriptures about this timing:

Mat 26:23-25 And he answered and said, He that dipped his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. The Son of man goeth, even as it is written of him: but woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had not been born. And Judas, who betrayed him, answered and said, Is it I, Rabbi? He saith unto him, Thou hast said.

According to John's Account, Judas left immediately after the action of Matthew 26:23-25.

John 13:30 He then having received the sop went out straightway: and it was night.

Then and only then, did our Lord bless and say those well known words:

Mat 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.

This established an ordinance for all time, practiced in each local assembly. (1 Cor. 11:23-29)
Note again, please, the words of our Lord's Limited Atonement work - highlighted in red.

As for the rest, please read again the post you were commenting on. The answer is there before you.

Mat 19:25 And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Reader,

let me show you just how crazy, Theological crazy can become......... when its a devil led deceived cultist.

Now, you are on a Thread where several of these are trying to teach that YOU, reader, might be one of the "designed reprobates" who God caused to exist, so that you can burn in the Lake of Fire, simply because you are born.
And you have no way to keep from burning in the Lake of Fire, as you are BORN TO BURN, according to these devil led people.

See that Crazy?........That is their Theological Insanity.

These people, these deceivers are teaching that you, me, your mother, your kids, your Pastor, may not be of the "elect", so that means you and your group were BORN TO BURN IN THE LAKE OF FIRE., and God chose this for you., and you can't stop it.
That is their Theology. That is their Religion. That is their Devil led lie. That is their CULT.

And, its gets worse....
IF you ask these reprobates .....>"what about YOUR MOTHER......what about YOUR Father.....What about YOUR KIDS, YOUR Friends">"your Church".....
These deceived liars will tell you........"oh YES, all my family is "elect", all my Church is the Elect".... "all my kids are the Elect'.

So, ... do you see how these mind blinded deceivers think?
Look at the depth of their Satanic Deception.....
Not only do they teach the lie that God chooses some to BURN... simply because you are BORN........which can be you and your family......but worst of all, is that these Satanic Liars will tell you that all their family is the "elect", and their Church is all the elect, etc.

The doctrine these people teach, is Blasphemy and its Satanic.

The unbiblical antinomians like @Kidron, claim that you can go on sinning and not have to confess your sins, that you can reject what Jesus plainly said: "only those who do the will of my Father will see the kindgom", and that you don't have to be obedient to Christ's commands because God's hypergrace allows you to live in sinful disobedience. Those are your heretics that have infected the body of Christ and are leading people astray.

If you are saved, born again from above, then God has given you the gift of salvation and the gift of persevering faith. You are the elect and God will finish the good work HE began in you. But if you are like @Kidron and believe your freewill alone caused you to believe, then you are living on a teetering board as your freewill alone will cause you to fall away. It is bad doctrine that the hypergrace antinomian preachers teachers push, and it's evident that they are not saved by the number of preachers and teachers that have come out publicly denouncing their faith in Jesus.

The plain fact is this: the hypergrace and antinomiamism that @Kidron pushes are lies, BIG LIES, and too many are following those lies. The blind leading the blind.

We, the saved, will obey God's word, not to be saved but because we are saved, and we do so for the glory of God only.

I pray, brothers and sisters, don't follow the likes of the antinomian and hypergrace preachers and teachers, it is false doctrine. They reject Jesus's command to repent and be obedient, and they reject Jesus's command to do the will of the Father. Don't be fooled.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other apostles in the age to come.

Precious friend, you do know that Matthias {[UNbelieving *] Judas' [Believing] successor}, was among those "you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones" (Acts 1:15-26 KJB!), Especially:

Act 1:21 "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that The Lord Jesus went in and out among us" Wasn't it Matthias that was predestinated to reign?

* Will Judas be among these That "JESUS NEVER Knew" (Matthew 7: 21-23 KJB!)?:
So how is it that an UNbeliever, JESUS NEVER Knew, is "predestined to reign with Christ"? Impossible, Correct?

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

 

[mrsjones]

God gave us all free will. GOD IS FAIR AND KIND. He does not want robots loving Him in Jesus Perfect Name amen

So if one does not receive God it won't ever be Gods fault

 

[rogerg]

God gave us all free will. GOD IS FAIR AND KIND. He does not want robots loving Him in Jesus Perfect Name amen

So if one does not receive God it won't ever be Gods fault

Adam's (and Eve's) transgression caused it, and by it, were we all sold under sin. Until, and unless, God imparts spiritual life (becoming born again from above) to someone, they are unable to truly hear (with spiritual ears), and perceive (with a renewed mind) , the Gospel. That can only come about as a gift from God, given completely by Him.


[Rom 7:14 KJV] 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

[Jhn 6:43-45 KJV]
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[Jhn 6:64-66 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[awelight]

God gave us all free will. GOD IS FAIR AND KIND. He does not want robots loving Him in Jesus Perfect Name amen

So if one does not receive God it won't ever be Gods fault

I know there are a lot of posts here in this discussion, so you might want to read the following posts - in this order - to get the gist of what many of us are saying. Most f these are my posts.

post # 254, 469, 598 and 624.

Mat 19:25 And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[justpassinthrough]

You believe Judas is one of the Elect? You believe Judas was a true believer? You believe Judas obtained Salvation? UNBELIEVABLE !!!!

Here is what I stated.

Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other apostles in the age to come.



So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Predestined doesn’t somehow mean we are automatically saved and can never become lost.

Each person must choose to obey (follow) Christ.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,Hebrews 5:9





JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Precious friend, you do know that Matthias {[UNbelieving *] Judas' [Believing] successor}, was among those "you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones" (Acts 1:15-26 KJB!), Especially:

Act 1:21 "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that The Lord Jesus went in and out among us" Wasn't it Matthias that was predestinated to reign?

* Will Judas be among these That "JESUS NEVER Knew" (Matthew 7: 21-23 KJB!)?:
So how is it that an UNbeliever, JESUS NEVER Knew, is "predestined to reign with Christ"? Impossible, Correct?

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

Sorry bro, but this had already taken place.


And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” John 6:65-67


The other disciples had turned away from following Him at that time.



So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28



Jesus was speaking to His twelve disciples as He plainly referenced ”twelve” thrones.



Here is more context. —



When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:25-30





JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

"And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? "
"could not believe"

Please quote scripture and context, and make your point.



Presdestination refers to purpose not salvation.


When Paul uses the word “elect” he is referring to the Jews.


Elect refers to purpose, not people “elected” to be saved.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10





JPT

 

[rogerg]

[

Please quote scripture and context, and make your point.
Presdestination refers to purpose not salvation.
When Paul uses the word “elect” he is referring to the Jews.
Elect refers to purpose, not people “elected” to be saved.
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

"Please quote scripture and context, and make your point."

My point was the Gospel has to first be revealed, not just physically heard, by its recipient to be understood and embraced by them.
Those to whom it hasn't been revealed, will never/can never understand, believe, embrace the Gospel

"Presdestination refers to purpose not salvation."

It doesn't ? It does by being predestinated for salvation:

[Eph 1:5, 11 KJV]
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"When Paul uses the word “elect” he is referring to the Jews."
Really? The true, spiritual Jews. Those chosen by God for salvation

[1Pe 1:1-3 KJV]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

"Elect refers to purpose, not people “elected” to be saved."

I don't know where you derived your understanding from, but I don't think is the Bible

[Tit 1:1 KJV]
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

[Mar 13:27 KJV]
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

[Luk 18:7 KJV]
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

[Rom 8:33 KJV]
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

"
"Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10[/QUOTE]"

It says "for the sake of the elect. "for sake the sake of " means it that it was intended for certain specific people.

 

[fredoheaven]

Sorry dude, you ain't talking about me then. I have been translating the Nestle Greek text into English for years. Why - because I don't trust completely - any translation. One thing I can say for sure is - the newer the Translation the further from a true translation it is. Most newer Bibles - since the 1970's. are more commentary that they are translations. Way too many words added in that are not in the Greek text.

Umm, this could be off-topic but what have you said bout not trusting completely any translation but you are doing one then you are in honesty that you have the edge of understanding the word? I know one other guy who has claimed of what you are doing. Basically, you are stating that it is "you" that is the authority and no longer the scripture. Too bad.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones,

So, you STILL believe {UNsaved} Judas, NOT {Saved} Matthias, will be reigning with the twelve?
methinks UNbelievable And Impossible

 

[Adstar]

Show me someone is scripture who ever boasted that they chose Christ of their own freewill. And Jesus said we did not choose Him but He chose us. Always the scripture runs Blessed be God who by His great mercy hath chosen us.

Joshua choosing the LORD and asking all the Jewish people to make their own free willed choice on Whom they will serve::

(Joshua 24:14-15) "¶ Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. {15} And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Again show me someone who was ever born again by their own will. The scripture says we are born again not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God.

I have never claimed that anyone is born again by their own will.. It takes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be born again and that is the action of the Holy Spirit in transforming the receiver..

Non christians believe either that Christians are better than they could ever be or else they despise christians for believing they are better than everyone else. You heard the the same gospel that they heard, you got saved but they didn't ... therefore you must be better than they are. You must be wiser, more righteous.

No.. Some people respond to conviction with pride and anger.. Some people respond to conviction with remorse and humility.. It has nothing to do with being intelligent or being less of a sinner.. Indeed some of the worst sinners are saved because they cannot escape the reality of their own unworthiness and they desperate Need for the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ to cover their sins..

 

[Adstar]

Romans 7 is for those who know the law ... how it works and describes how the affects the person under it.

Paul as apostle was not under the law.

You cannot believe that Paul as apostle was unable to do the good he intended to do but instead did evil he hated.

Romans 7 was Not written in past tense.. It was written in present tense and was Paul revealing His current state, Not His former state.. If you disregard this then it is your ideology taking precedence over what is clearly written before you in the scripture..

Paul also said And declared it to be a saying that ALL Christians should accept::

(1 Timothy 1:15) "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

He never said ""I was chief"" as in past tense.. He said ""I am chief"" which was the state of affairs at the time of writing the verse when He was a saved Christian..

 

[Adstar]

Because God is sovereign and does what He wants without having to justify His actions to anyone, He can reveal what He wants to reveal, and hide what He wants to hide;

And all Praise Glory and thanks be to the LORD who chose to reveal things to me..

 

[OIC1965]

Umm, this could be off-topic but what have you said bout not trusting completely any translation but you are doing one then you are in honesty that you have the edge of understanding the word? I know one other guy who has claimed of what you are doing. Basically, you are stating that it is "you" that is the authority and no longer the scripture. Too bad.

There are nuances in the Greek text that cannot be fully translated into English.

 

[justpassinthrough]

So, you STILL believe {UNsaved} Judas, NOT {Saved} Matthias, will be reigning with the twelve?
methinks UNbelievable And Impossible

I don’t believe Judas, who was destined to reign with Christ and the other eleven apostles, will be reigning with the Lord. Most likely Paul got that place.





JPT

 

[Evmur]

Romans 7 was Not written in past tense.. It was written in present tense and was Paul revealing His current state, Not His former state.. If you disregard this then it is your ideology taking precedence over what is clearly written before you in the scripture..

Paul also said And declared it to be a saying that ALL Christians should accept::

(1 Timothy 1:15) "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

He never said ""I was chief"" as in past tense.. He said ""I am chief"" which was the state of affairs at the time of writing the verse when He was a saved Christian..

nonsense

How could Paul teach holiness and total victory over sin if he was still the slave to it? the person in Romans 7 willed to do good but did evil instead in other words sin had dominion over him.

Paul does relate his past condition of being under the law but not saved in the present tense.