predestination vs freewill

[awelight]

God has a clear foreknowledge of predestination in eternity past, then the calling, justifying, and glorifying occurs in that sequence.

Romans 8:29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Actually, in the mind of God, they have already taken place. This is why, the Spirit led Paul to use these Aorist, Active verbs in the Greek. They are all past tense. Also, the action in these verbs are all God. God is making them happen. So you could interpret them this way:

God Foreknew, in an intimate fashion, then He predestinated them, then He called them, Then He justified them, Then He glorified them, on the surety of His Sovereignty and Eternal existence.

 

[OIC1965]

Technically, that is not double predestination, he was actually making a reference to Supralapsarianism. The belief that Election took place by eternal decree, before anything was created and the non-elect were reprobated at the same point.

I was referring to when he said God did. Not predestine people to go to hell as if I had said that. I do not see that taught in Bible, though some come to that conclusion by inference.

Also, if you notice, he is confusing election and predestination, which are not the same thing, though they are closely related.

 

[OIC1965]

Actually, in the mind of God, they have already taken place. This is why, the Spirit led Paul to use these Aorist, Active verbs in the Greek. They are all past tense. Also, the action in these verbs are all God. God is making them happen. So you could interpret them this way:

God Foreknew, in an intimate fashion, then He predestinated them, then He called them, Then He justified them, Then He glorified them, on the surety of His Sovereignty and Eternal existence.

Yes, we are already seated in heavenly places positionally, though our bodies and members are on the earth. Colossians 3, I think.

 

[OIC1965]

I don't believe God "predestinated {CHOSE} Any to the lake of fire," since CHRIST Died For ALL, and HIS Salvation is OFFERED To ALL, And ALL "will CHOOSE to accept OR REJECT IT," Correct? So then, what Does This Mean, What is it talking about?:

Rom 8:29 For whom He Did Foreknow, He also Did Predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS SON, that He might be The Firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He Did Predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

First of all, chosen (elected) and predestinated are not exactly the same thing. The chosen ( elect)are predestined to be conformed to Christ’s image. Never does the Bible say that people are elected or predestined positively to hell, (appointed I think is used but that’s due to their own sin, not because of what God has done).

 

[awelight]

I was referring to when he said God predestined people to go to hell. I do not see that taught in Bible, though some come to that conclusion by inference.

I understood your point and was not disagreeing with it. I just wanted to throw that in. In case you didn't know the Theological term for his argument. There are verses that would seem to agree with the Supralapsarian view, such as:

John_3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Personally, at this moment in my life, I fall towards the Infralapsarian view. It differs primarily, from the other, by stating that God Chose the Elect before creating but did not reprobate those that He passed by. Reprobation, is brought by God, upon non-elect individuals for their downward spiraling actions. As taught in Romans chapter 1.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[awelight]

Yes, we are already seated in heavenly places positionally, though our bodies and members are on the earth. Colossians 3, I think.

Yes indeed !!!! Positionally we are in GREAT shape but sadly, conditionally - not so much. As I get older as a Christian, I can relate more and more with Paul in Rom. 7:18-25.

 

[awelight]

First of all, chosen (elected) and predestinated are not exactly the same thing. The chosen ( elect)are predestined to be conformed to Christ’s image. Never does the Bible say that people are elected or predestined positively to hell, (appointed I think is used but that’s due to their own sin, not because of what God has done).

His premise is wrong because he started out with the Arminian lie. That is, Christ died for everyone. If you start from there, many Scriptures have to be twisted and abandoned. It just infuriates, fallen man, that he is not in control. They propagate the Devil's lies, by constantly saying things like:

- If Christ did not die for everyone then how do we choose Christ? If you say, He died only for the Elect, you are on dangerous ground.
- But what about John 3:16?
- What about the verses that say "all"?
- What about the verse that says: God want's all to come to salvation?
- Predestination is not to Salvation.
- When you believe - you are then born again.

And the one I hate more and more everyday:

God would never interfere with a person's free will. I have the right to choose Christ. I would never want to be saved by a god who forces people into Salvation. (Constantly attempting, to make themselves like God). To which I say:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

[OIC1965]

I understood your point and was not disagreeing with it. I just wanted to throw that in. In case you didn't know the Theological term for his argument. There are verses that would seem to agree with the Supralapsarian view, such as:

John_3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Personally, at this moment in my life, I fall towards the Infralapsarian view. It differs primarily, from the other, by stating that God Chose the Elect before creating but did not reprobate those that He passed by. Reprobation, is brought by God, upon non-elect individuals for their downward spiraling actions. As taught in Romans chapter 1.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

It’s kind of tricky because God has perfect foreknowledge and has for eternity. So you cannot point to a time when in eternity when God decreed this or that. I think when they talk about infra vs Supra, it’s not talking about temporal aspects. I think these two doctrines are speculative and I don’t worry about such things too much.

 

[OIC1965]

Yes indeed !!!! Positionally we are in GREAT shape but sadly, conditionally - not so much. As I get older as a Christian, I can relate more and more with Paul in Rom. 7:18-25.

I as well. I think the more we know God, the more we know how far we fall short in ourselves and appreciate His grace more and more

 

[rogerg]

God would never interfere with a person's free will. I have the right to choose Christ. I would never want to be saved by a god who forces people into Salvation. (Constantly attempting, to make themselves like God). To which I say:

Ever hear the "God is a gentleman" one?

 

[justpassinthrough]

Jhn 12:39-40 KJV]
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?”
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. John 12:37-43


Exactly as I said, each person must choose whether to believe in Him or not.

Each person must also confess Him as Lord, if they want to be saved.

• Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

JLB

 

[justpassinthrough]

Actually, in the mind of God, they have already taken place. This is why, the Spirit led Paul to use these Aorist, Active verbs in the Greek. They are all past tense. Also, the action in these verbs are all God. God is making them happen. So you could interpret them this way:

God Foreknew, in an intimate fashion, then He predestinated them, then He called them, Then He justified them, Then He glorified them, on the surety of His Sovereignty and Eternal existence.

Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other apostles in the age to come.



So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Predestined doesn’t somehow mean we are automatically saved and can never become lost.

Each person must choose to obey (follow) Christ.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9






JPT

 

[rogerg]

Exactly as I said, each person must choose whether to believe in Him or not.

"And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? "
"could not believe"

 

[awelight]

Ever hear the "God is a gentleman" one?

Oh yea. I could have included God is Love. God is a loving God. God loves everyone. Love, love, love to the point of ad nauseam.

What about God's other attributes? God is a Holy God, a Judging God, an angry God, a wrathful God.

 

[Kidron]

Election in Scripture, is based upon God's Sovereign Choice,

That's not scripture, that's hyper calvinism pretending to be scripture, based on twisting scriptures.


Here is how Salvation is put into effect, regarding a person.

"faith comes by hearing".......

"all that believe in Jesus, have eternal life".

What is the proof that Salvation has been given to a person, as "The gift of Salvation?

The person is "born again".

 

[Kidron]

Technically, that is not double predestination, he was actually making a reference to Supralapsarianism. The belief that Election took place by eternal decree, before anything was created and the non-elect were reprobated at the same point.

Salvation is offered, its not enforced.


No one is "reprobated" before they are born....This is a cult teaching designed by Cross rejecting heretics.

 

[JerryInBoston]

That's not scripture, that's hyper calvinism pretending to be scripture, based on twisting scriptures.


Here is how Salvation is put into effect, regarding a person.

"faith comes by hearing".......

"all that believe in Jesus, have eternal life".

What is the proof that Salvation has been given to a person, as "The gift of Salvation?

The person is "born again".

Faith is a gift of God's grace.

 

[Kidron]

To the hyper calvinists....... who can't prove that God chose you.....

You dont believe you have freewill?

You hate God's Grace ?...... or just feel the carnal compulsion to teach that Grace isn't for everyone, which God hates that you teach?

You believe that God causes all the Evil in the world as if the Devil does not exist. ?

You dont believe that John 3:16 is true. ?

You believe that The Cross is not for the world, its only for the "elect"?

You believe that God left heaven to come down here and die for ......some ?

When you read ..."i would have ALL to be saved"? you dont believe that ALL means All?

When you read. "as many as received Jesus, God gave them power to become the Sons of God".... you think that "as many", means "only the elect"?

When you read "For God so loved the world", you think this means, "for God only chose the elect"?

WHen you read that Jesus said......>"if i be lifted up....(on the Cross), i will draw ALL men to me"......you believe the "all" means only some?

When Jesus said........."Father not my WILL........but your WILL be done", that this isn't free will ???

= Wake up.

 

[JerryInBoston]

You believe that God causes all the Evil in the world as if the Devil does not exist. ?

You, @Kidron, believe God gifted man the freewill to sin, with God knowing in advance every horrible sin man would commit. You make God the author of sin. You are the heretic.

 

[Kidron]

Reader,

let me show you just how crazy, Theological crazy can become......... when its a devil led deceived cultist.

Now, you are on a Thread where several of these are trying to teach that YOU, reader, might be one of the "designed reprobates" who God caused to exist, so that you can burn in the Lake of Fire, simply because you are born.
And you have no way to keep from burning in the Lake of Fire, as you are BORN TO BURN, according to these devil led people.

See that Crazy?........That is their Theological Insanity.

These people, these deceivers are teaching that you, me, your mother, your kids, your Pastor, may not be of the "elect", so that means you and your group were BORN TO BURN IN THE LAKE OF FIRE., and God chose this for you., and you can't stop it.
That is their Theology. That is their Religion. That is their Devil led lie. That is their CULT.

And, its gets worse....
IF you ask these reprobates .....>"what about YOUR MOTHER......what about YOUR Father.....What about YOUR KIDS, YOUR Friends">"your Church".....
These deceived liars will tell you........"oh YES, all my family is "elect", all my Church is the Elect".... "all my kids are the Elect'.

So, ... do you see how these mind blinded deceivers think?
Look at the depth of their Satanic Deception.....
Not only do they teach the lie that God chooses some to BURN... simply because you are BORN........which can be you and your family......but worst of all, is that these Satanic Liars will tell you that all their family is the "elect", and their Church is all the elect, etc.

The doctrine these people teach, is Blasphemy and its Satanic.