Sabbath
- Thread starter geaux4it
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
My understand of Jesus' words indicate that one can "break the Sabbath" but still be blameless. There are greater laws that the Sabbath, and in order to obey these, the Sabbath law is "broken".
Matthew 12:1-8
At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
In John 7:21-23, Jesus talks about the circumcision law, which is greater than the Sabbath (as the Sabbath is "broken" to do the work of circumcising). If the Sabbath can be broken to fulfill Moses law, how much more to heal the whole man as in Jesus healings?
John 7:21-23
Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.
Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers: and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
And if Paul demonstrates in Galatians that the requirement for circumcision is done away with, how much more the requirement for keeping the Sabbath?
Are we not suppose to take care of the Widows and Orphans? Feed the Hungry? Clothe the naked? Are these not acts of doing GODs work? Showing Goodness and Righteousness on the Sabbath or doing what is Good and Right on the Sabbath, in my view, is not breaking the Sabbath. I feel you only have to look at the world today to understand what was going on and how words were being perverted and you start to understand what Jesus was getting at. Suffering does not take a day off, why would GODs goodness take a day off from alleviating suffering?
I think a main part of the confusion lies in looking at these verses with a foundational belief that.... 1. People were following the law correctly and 2. that the Messiah came to free them from this. To me that's a faulty lens to see the bible through. I believe that people were misinterpreting and misrepresenting the law (just like today) and The Messiah came to show us how it was always SUPPOSED to be kept.
So to me in John 7:21-23 The Messiah is simply pointing out the hypocrisy in them accusing him of sinning by healing on the sabbath when they are circumcising on the sabbath. What the Messiah did NOT say in these verses is that either one of these things are considered actually breaking the sabbath.
Maybe you missed Matthew 12:5. I will post again.
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Jesus said the priests profane the sabbath. I'm guessing that's similar to (but probably more accurate than) the phrase of "breaking the sabbath".
Yep, the spirit of the law is love
Do not kill if you love you not kill your love one
God make the law, so nothing wrong with the law
Pharisees do the law not base of love but just to show of so people think he is good man
Not kill because of love is The will of God
Not kill to make other see us as good man is hypocracy
Yes, The messiah here was referencing David and the shewbread in 1 Sam 21. You had hungry people... and because it was the only bread available at the time, the priest gave away the holy bread. The whole point is that we shouldn't be so tunnel vision on the law that we miss out on why it is here in the first place.
This doesn't at all mean that it is ok to disregard the law... This means we should INNERstand the purpose of the law and prioritize WHY we keep the law over the WHAT we are keeping. We do the physical law because of the spiritual...
Helping others/God's work was never intended to be put in the category with man's work that we are to refrain from on the Sabbath.
I completely agree. People had lost why we kept the law in the first place and without the love the law was supposed to bring, you will end up with mans ego and thirst for power taking over... and ultimately with a new law very different than the original.
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The reason God make law is love so when we do law because of hate we do against the spirit of law
most people sue other because of hate so we are miss to do the spirit of law
No wonder Jesus say on those lawhang all the law and prophet
Yes, Unfortunately many mainstream Christians misinterpret those passages as a replacement for other laws. They overlook the word "hang" in Matthew 22:40. This is a SUMMARY of the other laws/commandments. If you look at the 10 commandments for example, the first half fall under loving God with all of your heart, soul, and mind..... and the second half fall under loving your neighbor as yourself. But when we disregard the other laws/commandments, we leave these two great commandments open for man's interpretation. Man then gets to decide what it means to show God or other mankind love, rather than God being the One to determine that.
The point is also that there are greater laws in place. One of those greater laws was circumcision - that is, the requirement to keep the law of circumcision on the eighth day outweighed the law to do no regular work on the Sabbath. And the requirement for circumcision was ended, as referenced in Acts and Galatians. So all laws lesser than this, including Sabbath keeping, were ended also.
If you must keep the Sabbath, then to be consistent, you must also keep circumcision. If you keep circumcision (for reasons of obeying the law) then you stand condemned as a Judaiser attempting to earn his own salvation, as stated in Galatians.
I addressed the the two verses that you gave and how they did not at all infer that the law or the sabbath no longer applies. If you have another verse that is causing you to believe the law is done away with then I will respond to that as well if you like. Saying that circumcision is a "greater law" in gods eyes is an assumption. The Pharisees that were doing the circumcisions were not keeping Gods law correctly... The Messiah pointed this out. So if they were treating this as a greater law, does not mean they were right in doing so. I also pointed out earlier that helping people and God's work does not fall into the same category as man's work that is to be refrained from on the Sabbath.
Even IF (and that's a big if) you were correct in saying that circumcision counts as a type of work that breaks the Sabbath, and also correct that this makes the Sabbath a "lesser law".... where is the verse that says if we no longer have to keep a "greater law", all "lesser laws" are done away with as well???
I don't want to give you too much at one time... but if you could just answer that question and the following:
In Matthew 5:18-19, which laws/commandments were being referred to that The Messiah says whether or not we keep them and whether or not we teach them effect our place in heaven???
Jesus said that circumcision could be received on the sabbath day so the law of Moses should not be broken. We can therefore infer that circumcision was exempt from the sabbath law, and so was the greater of the two commandments. If the sabbath were the greater command, the circumcision could simply be postponed until the 9th day (presumably, this would have been raised by the prophets earlier, or Jesus at the time).
John 7:21-23
Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.
Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers: and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Galatians (and the New Testament) refers to the entire law being fulfilled in Christ, and that the Galatians were not obligated to keep it. Paul's frequently cited example of keeping the law was circumcision. As already outlined in the previous paragraph, circumcision was the greater commandment out of circumcision and sabbath. This is the reason sabbath keeping and lesser laws are only mentioned in passing references, but that circumcision is mentioned frequently.
The everlasting covenant of circumcision could only be unnecessary for believers if all of the law was already fulfilled through Christ, otherwise, the requirement would continue. If circumcision continued, then all of the lesser laws, such as sabbath keeping, sacrifice and washing, would likewise need be continued. It is not logical that all of the law be fulfilled, yet some of the lesser laws (such as sabbath) still be required.
Jesus was talking to Jews, as he had not yet fulfilled the law and died in our place. But note what he said in verse 20 - that even the scribes and Pharisees with all their law keeping would not have righteousness enough to earn entry into heaven.
Matthew 5:17-20
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
You have not addressed my statement about the difference between God's law and Man's law in regard to breaking the Sabbath. You have not addressed my statement about the people that were practicing circumcision not following law correctly (The Messiah never said it was acceptable for them to circumcise on the sabbath). If those two statements are not proven false, then by you inferring what you are, is just jumping to conclusions. You also did not supply any scripture that suggests that if some law is fond to be "greater" we can disregard the "lesser" laws. That sounds like something a Pharisee would make up and add to the law.
You also did not answer the question I asked about Matthew 5:18-19. Again, the Pharisees did not keep the law correctly. They added and took away from it (E.G. Washing your hands before you eat) and they prioritized the physical component of the law (what is being done) over the spiritual component (why its being done). Because they did not follow law how it was always intended to be, saying that our righteousness needs to exceed theirs clearly does not prove that us following law correctly does not effect our place in heaven.
Regardless of how you interpret Matthew 5:20, it is irrelevant to the question I asked about 5:18-19. The question was: WHICH LAWS/COMMANDMENTS WERE BEING REFERRED TO that The Messiah says whether or not we keep them and whether or not we teach them effect our place in heaven???
S
SophieT
Guest
your feelings and my feelings do not explain what 'holy' means
believe it or not, the very short and uncomplicated meaning of the word holy, is 'to be set apart' (from)
you can find any number of attempts at explaining the word in reference to God. we are not God, but God instructs us to be holy
what does He mean? set yourself apart from the rest of the world
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
here is a nice concise article to help explain all of that:
What is holiness according to the Bible? How can I be holy?
In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." What is holiness? How can we be holy?
The word translated "holiness" in the New Testament means to be "set apart." In the Old Testament, holiness was generally connected with God's perfection. How can we be set apart and perfect? All people have sinned (Romans 3:23) and are imperfect. Our only option to be set apart is through the salvation offered through Jesus Christ (John 3:16; Romans 10:9; Ephesians 2:8-9). When we believe in Jesus as Lord, He cleanses us from sin and makes us holy (1 John 1:7). Theologians often refer to this concept as positional sanctification.
First Peter 2:9 speaks of this new status as well: "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." God calls us holy even though we still commit sins during this life.
In addition to being "made" holy, we are called to live holy lives. First Peter 1:15 teaches, "As he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct." The previous verse adds, "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance" (v. 14). We are commanded to avoid the ways we practiced before becoming a Christian and live according to God's ways. We can only do this by living by the power of God's Spirit, following the principles found in God's Word.
Theologians refer to this daily practice of living for God to become more holy as progressive sanctification. As we seek to follow God's will each day, we can increasingly become holy as we become more like Christ. Our goal should be to say like Paul, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1).
you can read the rest of that here
S
SophieT
Guest
S
SophieT
Guest
the entire point was that Jesus called Himself 'the Lord of the Sabbath'
deal with it
it is not a sin to worship on Sunday
if He did not break the Sabbath, then why did the Pharisees accuse Him of doing so?
I'm pretty sure that bunch knew more about the law than do you
as it is, He created the days, so He is LORD of all 7 of 'em
