Sabbath

[eternally-gratefull]

No... I just disagree with your interpretation of Paul. I ultimately believe we do not take the warning in 2nd peter 3:16-17 serious enough.

Again. Paul told us what the purpose of the law was. PURPOSE.

there is no question. He told us what it was. Your wrong If anything, you should heed 2 peter because your the one not taking paul literally

The people who did what Peter warned us about were turning Pauls words to licentiousness..(making grace a license to sin) I am not doing this. nor are any of us doing this. so 2 peter 3: 16 and 17 has no bearing on me.

 

[MalikB]

Thats not what Christianity is about man. You can still do your best, you will still fall short. Doing that causes you to be cursed.

How is a christian to be encouraged when he continues to look at the law. and if they are honest with themselves understand they fall short?

They can/t unless they water down the law or decieve themselves that they are keeping it.

God requires perfection. If you are not perfect. You have failed to keep the law. Those are moses words and pauls. Both who were inspired by God himself

Your argument is with them my friend, and God, not me


God defines righteousness. If you keep the whole law yet STUMBLE in one area, Your guilty.

For all have sinned and fall short.

To be righteous is to be PERFECT. as Jesus himself said. why do you call me good (righteous) no one is good but God. Your not God my friend. Neither am I!



No one can follow the law. No one has and no one will. Mess up one time and your done. You have failed to keep the law.

But. Non believers can obey commands.

Thats your problem. your trying to mix commands with the law. CO0mmands are far above the law my friend.





Or to put it in the words of scripture

Heb 10: 4 for by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified

col 2: 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Gal 3: 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

I can continue but I hope you get the point



BUT YOU CANT FOLLOW THE LAW!

Wake up man, You are decieved. Paul spent a lifetime apposing people like you who try to impose on others the burden that the jews could not handle. Obeying the law.

The law was not given to show you how to live I have proved that.



Salvation is by Grace.

It is NOT OF WORKS

If you teaching we can lose salvation. or must maintain it by obeying the law then you are teaching works.

If you are not. and are teaching sanctification comes by the law. Your still wrong. The law was for the sinner, not the believer.

We can go back and forth forever.... nothing gets accomplished. If you want to exchange perspectives on specific verses one at a time.... we can do that.

Ultimately, The Father was referred to as the MOST HIGH god.... So I put Him above all. His instructions are found in the first covenant (old testament) writings... So that is the foundation of my beliefs. I believe in and accept the Messiah BECAUSE I believe that what he taught was inline with The Father's instructions (law).

There are many verses in the first covenant about certain laws being FOREVER... and that there would be false prophets that come to steer people away from The Fathers instructions. If ANYONE (including Paul) was teaching that the law was no loner valid, I would adhere to the warnings in earlier scriptures and consider them a false prophet.

After digging into Paul's writings, I ended up believing that Paul was not actually teaching that the law no longer applied, but A combination of mistranslations, misinterpretations, misrepresentations, etc. has lead so many into believing in the very thing we were warned about by Peter.

Irrespective of whether or not Paul taught that the law no longer applies, I believe that modern Christianity subconsciously holds Paul's writings above The Messiahs teachings as well as The Father... More like followers of Paul than followers of Christ. There is no way I would believe that if Pauls writings weren't in the bible that Christianity today could have drawn the conclusion that The Messiah's actions and death were to result in a change in keeping his Father's laws.

 

[SophieT]

We can go back and forth forever.... nothing gets accomplished. If you want to exchange perspectives on specific verses one at a time.... we can do that.

that is also not true

YOU will not accomplish anything

YOU will not make inroads into the actual gospel

YOU will not be able to stand against the truth which is not law keeping

you do not believe in the actual gospel according to Christ's own word and you are not on an SDA or other Sabbatarian site

 

[SophieT]

After digging into Paul's writings, I ended up believing that Paul was not actually teaching that the law no longer applied, but A combination of mistranslations, misinterpretations, misrepresentations, etc. has lead so many into believing in the very thing we were warned about by Peter.

you do not like Paul's letters because they disagree with your Sabbatarian agenda

first you complain he is hard to understand and when that does not work, you state you 'dug' into them and then disagree with what Paul said

he asked the Galatians who had bewitched them since they had begun in the spirit and now were working in the flesh

you disagree with Paul.....actual Christians do no disagree with Paul

 

[SophieT]

Hasting's Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics.
"We assume, because we have been raised with an anti- Torah bias, that the text must be talking about Sabbath, but that is a pure assumption not required by the text. To say that the verse must mean, that if we are honoring the Sabbath as God commands numerous times and places throughout Scripture (not a gray area), that those who do so are weak in the faith, is an interpretation coming from an anti- Torah bias that has been imposed on the text, but which the text does not require."

I was not raised with anti-commandment bias. this is another 'go to' exaggeration that those who try to keep the law (which is impossible) say.

you mention Calvin in your post (partial quote above) and yet even Calvin had this to say:

• “The external observance of the Sabbath rest is a Jewish ceremonial ordinance and no longer binding on Christians. Sabbatarians surpass the Jews three times over in a crass and carnal Sabbatarian superstition.” John Calvin
• 
  
• “Saving faith is an immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, resting upon Him alone, for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of God’s grace.” Charles Spurgeon
• 
  
• “Justification is… a completed fact for the believer; it is not an ongoing process.” John MacArthur

Calvin calls the efforts of Sabbatarians crass and carnal and superstition

 

[SophieT]

23 One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25 And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him:

26 how he entered the house of God, in the time of4 Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” 27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, anot man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.” Mark 2

Jesus words. But somehow you Sabbatarians seem to prefer Moses even though he was not allowed into the Promised Land because he DISOBEYED God. think of all that Moses did and then realize that one sin cause him to miss the land God promised

And sit there and arrogantly think you somehow obey the law of God...written in stone to signify that it cannot be broken...you sit there and tell others they are wrong and you keep the law

you insult God every time you do this. Moses was greater than you and all other Sabbatarians and yet God punished him for one sin of anger which led to disobedience and you boast of your law keeping adherence

tell us more. demonstrate further how the gospel is become of no avail because you observe the Sabbath which is no longer a covenant...not even between God and the Jewes

 

[MalikB]

to you of course since you do not know where you stand spiritually but come here and want to tell people who do know where they stand, that you understand the Bible

how can you understand the Bible if you are unsure of your spiritual status?

don't come back with answer your questions because you do not have one legit question. first and foremost, why should anyone believe someone who is unsure of where they stand with God?


so tell us why you are not sure of where you stand spiritually?

and then tell us how it is that while you are not sure, you address others and think you have something to say that is worthwhile?

I don't know why your even concerned enough to look into my profile, but if you're assuming that I don't know where I stand spiritually based on a drop down that only gives you three options... I can see how you would draw that conclusion.

But if you want to know why I picked "unsure" over "christian" or "nonchristian" its because regardless of the option I chose many would not look at me that way.

If your definition of "Christian" is just "Follow of Christ"... Then yes, I believe in following him and although I fall short, I live a life attempting to do that.

The problem with just running with that definition is that throughout my studies of scripture I've gained some big differences than what modern mainstream Christianity teaches. So once people that fall into that group understand that, they don't tend to accept me as one of them.

Stating that I'm not a Christian would cause a lot of people confusion as well.

Ultimately, I don't belong to any organization. I believe in the original writings the bible comes from, The Creator in those writings, His instructions on how to live, and The Messiah that I believe was sent to give us a second chance and show us how to follow his Father.

 

[MalikB]

you do not like Paul's letters because they disagree with your Sabbatarian agenda

first you complain he is hard to understand and when that does not work, you state you 'dug' into them and then disagree with what Paul said

he asked the Galatians who had bewitched them since they had begun in the spirit and now were working in the flesh

you disagree with Paul.....actual Christians do no disagree with Paul

I've never heard of a Sabbatarian agenda movement... but ok. Paul being hard to understand was not me complaining.... Ii was quoting scripture... again 2nd peter 3:16-17

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We can go back and forth forever.... nothing gets accomplished. If you want to exchange perspectives on specific verses one at a time.... we can do that.

Ultimately, The Father was referred to as the MOST HIGH god.... So I put Him above all. His instructions are found in the first covenant (old testament) writings... So that is the foundation of my beliefs. I believe in and accept the Messiah BECAUSE I believe that what he taught was inline with The Father's instructions (law).

There are many verses in the first covenant about certain laws being FOREVER... and that there would be false prophets that come to steer people away from The Fathers instructions. If ANYONE (including Paul) was teaching that the law was no loner valid, I would adhere to the warnings in earlier scriptures and consider them a false prophet.

After digging into Paul's writings, I ended up believing that Paul was not actually teaching that the law no longer applied, but A combination of mistranslations, misinterpretations, misrepresentations, etc. has lead so many into believing in the very thing we were warned about by Peter.

Irrespective of whether or not Paul taught that the law no longer applies, I believe that modern Christianity subconsciously holds Paul's writings above The Messiahs teachings as well as The Father... More like followers of Paul than followers of Christ. There is no way I would believe that if Pauls writings weren't in the bible that Christianity today could have drawn the conclusion that The Messiah's actions and death were to result in a change in keeping his Father's laws.

Your missing the whole point my friend

I am here to show how one becomes christlike. How one becomes obedient. and how we walk our lives.

Your here to say it is by the law. I have shown (proved) that is not the case.

You can believe whatever youwant. As long as you attempt to say it is by mosaic law in which we are sanctified (or eventually saved) myself and many here will appose you. Because like paul warned against. You are trying to push something that believers are no longer bound to. That was never given to help us. and had to fight his whole ministry, because these people taught as you do.

SIn is sin is sin.

If you commit adultry. You are a sinner, this is whether your saved or not

The command (do not commit adultry) does not tell you. How to keep this command or All the possible ways of breaking this command.

Thats WHY the command was not for the believer. BECAUSE IT CANT HELP US. it can ONLY CONDEMN US, Thankfully, because of the redemption in Christ, it CAN NO LONGER DO THAT, so the command has fulfilled its purpose.

Now lets go to the new way. And get away from the law. WHICH CAN NOT HELP US.

Your trying to put believers under law. Thats dangerous man, To them and to you. People are warning you. And trying to show you the correct way to become Christlike

 

[rstrats]

[QUOTE="SophieT, post: 4622974, member: 303760"

you mention Calvin in your post (partial quote above) and yet even Calvin had this to say:

• “The external observance of the Sabbath rest is a Jewish ceremonial ordinance and no longer binding on Christians.

QUOTE]

I wasn't suggesting that that it is. I was merely pointing out that Romans 14 is not an applicable text for supporting the idea that Sabbath observance is no longer required.

 

[MalikB]

Your missing the whole point my friend

I am here to show how one becomes christlike. How one becomes obedient. and how we walk our lives.

Your here to say it is by the law. I have shown (proved) that is not the case.

You can believe whatever youwant. As long as you attempt to say it is by mosaic law in which we are sanctified (or eventually saved) myself and many here will appose you. Because like paul warned against. You are trying to push something that believers are no longer bound to. That was never given to help us. and had to fight his whole ministry, because these people taught as you do.

SIn is sin is sin.

If you commit adultry. You are a sinner, this is whether your saved or not

The command (do not commit adultry) does not tell you. How to keep this command or All the possible ways of breaking this command.

Thats WHY the command was not for the believer. BECAUSE IT CANT HELP US. it can ONLY CONDEMN US, Thankfully, because of the redemption in Christ, it CAN NO LONGER DO THAT, so the command has fulfilled its purpose.

Now lets go to the new way. And get away from the law. WHICH CAN NOT HELP US.

Your trying to put believers under law. Thats dangerous man, To them and to you. People are warning you. And trying to show you the correct way to become Christlike

The term itself "christlike" means being like him. What did he do? He followed and taught his Fathers law.

I don't believe that you proved that at all. We just have different interpretations of Paul's writings.... and I don't believe anyone will get to a resolution by just dropping 20 scriptures at one time. If you want to address specific verses, if both people are open and the most important thing is truth, than its better to address these verses one at a time.

Sin has a definition... its breaking the law. Adultery is just one of many sins... we ARE told how not to commit adultery. The problem is trying to disregard the first covenant (old testament) which is where we are told this. The instructions found in the renewed covenant are referencing first covenant laws. So when we disregard the first covenant, we leave all these new testament teachings open for interpretation.

Lawlessness (sin) is the curse and what is dangerous. Keeping law has always been and will always be a blessing.

 

[Jackson123]

Yes that is true. You can worship on any day of the week, I was only highlighting that God blessed the seventh day specifically so we can rest from our work. Although we have rest in Christ we still have to go to work during the week and go about various duties. But Sabbath rest requires that we stop all of that for one day and commune with God as a memoriam of creation. Of course that doesn't mean you can't go to church on Sunday, but the problem with that is that it is a day decided by the Roman Catholic church to be the new Sabbath. They havesaid that themselves, I'm not putting words in their mouth. They themselves have said that Saturday is the true Sabbath. It's up to you what you do with that information. I don't mean to judge you, I only mean to inform. I am not in any place to judge you or anyone else in what you do, no one is. I apologize if I have come across that way, as I am a sinner, and I have no right at all to judge the actions of others. I don't know who you are at all, and I'm not gonna say that just because you worship on Sunday you're a horrible person or you don't read the Bible. No, I'm not gonna say that at all. If that's the way that you interpret the Bible then so be it. You seem like a wonderful person and you believing that doesn't change that fact at all. God bless you.

Sabbath law is for Israel not for New Testament Christian now we worship on Spirit and truth
To me it mean when we do love God and fellow men we are worship God when we feed the hungry not for fame we do it out of love we worship God
I think Paul against legalism worship to spiritual worship
if we have sex with non wife we legally commit adultery but NT more spiritually just saw non wife with lust we commit adultery legally my not adultery but spiritually yes
Same thing with worship you may go to church on Saturday it’s legally worship but your heart may have different motifstion you may just want to meet some one

 

[gb9]

We can go back and forth forever.... nothing gets accomplished. If you want to exchange perspectives on specific verses one at a time.... we can do that.

Ultimately, The Father was referred to as the MOST HIGH god.... So I put Him above all. His instructions are found in the first covenant (old testament) writings... So that is the foundation of my beliefs. I believe in and accept the Messiah BECAUSE I believe that what he taught was inline with The Father's instructions (law).

There are many verses in the first covenant about certain laws being FOREVER... and that there would be false prophets that come to steer people away from The Fathers instructions. If ANYONE (including Paul) was teaching that the law was no loner valid, I would adhere to the warnings in earlier scriptures and consider them a false prophet.

After digging into Paul's writings, I ended up believing that Paul was not actually teaching that the law no longer applied, but A combination of mistranslations, misinterpretations, misrepresentations, etc. has lead so many into believing in the very thing we were warned about by Peter.

Irrespective of whether or not Paul taught that the law no longer applies, I believe that modern Christianity subconsciously holds Paul's writings above The Messiahs teachings as well as The Father... More like followers of Paul than followers of Christ. There is no way I would believe that if Pauls writings weren't in the bible that Christianity today could have drawn the conclusion that The Messiah's actions and death were to result in a change in keeping his Father's laws.

judeaizer play book 101=

try to make Paul contradict Jesus, and completely ignore the fact that Paul was a envoy to the gentiles, who were not ever under the Law...

 

[MalikB]

judeaizer play book 101=

try to make Paul contradict Jesus, and completely ignore the fact that Paul was a envoy to the gentiles, who were not ever under the Law...

If you were following my posts you would know that I don't believe he contradicted the Messiah. The contradiction lies within the misinterpretations of his writings.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The term itself "christlike" means being like him. What did he do? He followed and taught his Fathers law.

How did he follow Gods commands?

I believe this is the question!! and this is what we are trying to discuss.

I don't believe that you proved that at all. We just have different interpretations of Paul's writings.... and I don't believe anyone will get to a resolution by just dropping 20 scriptures at one time. If you want to address specific verses, if both people are open and the most important thing is truth, than its better to address these verses one at a time.

Sin has a definition... its breaking the law. Adultery is just one of many sins... we ARE told how not to commit adultery. The problem is trying to disregard the first covenant (old testament) which is where we are told this. The instructions found in the renewed covenant are referencing first covenant laws. So when we disregard the first covenant, we leave all these new testament teachings open for interpretation.

Lawlessness (sin) is the curse and what is dangerous. Keeping law has always been and will always be a blessing.

You already stated the purpose of the law is NOT what Paul said it was.

So how can I believe we will be able to resolve any other issues.

If paul says the purpose of the law is A.

And you disagree.

What more can be said?

 

[SophieT]

I've never heard of a Sabbatarian agenda movement... but ok. Paul being hard to understand was not me complaining.... Ii was quoting scripture... again 2nd peter 3:16-17

neither have I. I did not say Sabbatarian agenda movement. I plainly said Sabbatarian agenda...which, since you are busy exercising it right now in this thread, is plain to see. you wish to make converts and create the lie that those who do not worship on your Sabbath timeline, are not following the law

that's true. we are not following the law because no one will be declared righteous by following the law

I don't know why your even concerned enough to look into my profile, but if you're assuming that I don't know where I stand spiritually based on a drop down that only gives you three options... I can see how you would draw that conclusion.

any time a new member starts talking like you or similar, I will check their profile. It often explains the contradiction between joining a Christian forum and then doing your best to demolish Christianity. you have more than one choice for the question that asks if you are a Christian....you didn't put Christian so that means you are not a Christian but have decided to come here and tell all the Christians that you are right and we are wrong. I think that covers my reasons for checking on your bio very well

 

[MalikB]

How did he follow Gods commands?

I believe this is the question!! and this is what we are trying to discuss.



You already stated the purpose of the law is NOT what Paul said it was.

So how can I believe we will be able to resolve any other issues.

If paul says the purpose of the law is A.

And you disagree.

What more can be said?

He kept the sabbath, feast days, etc.

What is the specific Paul verse you are referring to?

 

[SophieT]

[QUOTE="SophieT, post: 4622974, member: 303760"

you mention Calvin in your post (partial quote above) and yet even Calvin had this to say:

• “The external observance of the Sabbath rest is a Jewish ceremonial ordinance and no longer binding on Christians.

QUOTE]

I wasn't suggesting that that it is. I was merely pointing out that Romans 14 is not an applicable text for supporting the idea that Sabbath observance is no longer required.

and? you disagree that the law is n longer in effect? you don't think that Paul meant it when he said do not let anyone judge you for not following the law?

some people would like to apply that judgement in either direction but Paul makes it plains that he has no sympathy for Judaizers

you brought up Calvin.

 

[SophieT]

If your definition of "Christian" is just "Follow of Christ"... Then yes, I believe in following him and although I fall short, I live a life attempting to do that.

only up to the book of Acts though it would seem, but then following the law and adding to it, Jesus said, would not be following Him at all

and no, that is not my definition of what a Christian is

you have made up your own religion that is not supported by the Bible

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He kept the sabbath, feast days, etc.

I asked you HOW not WHAT.

can you please answer the questions. What was the power and motivation for jesus to do what he did.

Jesus himself told us. It was mentioned to you also. Can you recall?

What is the specific Paul verse you are referring to?

What verse does Paul say, What is the purpose of the law?