predestination vs freewill
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Jhn 12:39-40 KJV]
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[Eph 1:17-18 KJV]
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[Eph 1:17-18 KJV]
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
You didnt ask me about the Doctrine of Predestination.
You asked me to provide you with a VERSE that explains that being born again happens before "predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ".
Well, you see it.
Jesus is telling you that you must be "born again".....that this has to HAPPEN. .....FIRST.
See that?
So, why is GOD telling the world full of people that they must be born again, that they must believe in Jesus.... if God is going to do it for them, no matter what?
Also, why does God give instructions to preachers and evangelists and missionaries, to Go and PREACH the Gospel and MAKE DISCIPLES....... if Calvin's lies are true?
See, there is no need to have Preachers, Apostles, Missionaries and Teachers, ....
There is no reason for a Church Building.
There is no reason for the GOSPEL....
There is no reason for any of this, if God has already decided and will CAUSE some to be born again.
They dont need to believe anything, if CALVIN is Right.
Here is the good news.
He isn't.
He was a heretic who burned people to death.
The only religious (fake christian) system that has harmed more of humanity then John Calvin, is the Catholic Church.
They have been burning people and ruining people's faith, and denying the Cross of Christ for a lot longer than Calvin.
You asked me to provide you with a VERSE that explains that being born again happens before "predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ".
Well, you see it.
Jesus is telling you that you must be "born again".....that this has to HAPPEN. .....FIRST.
See that?
So, why is GOD telling the world full of people that they must be born again, that they must believe in Jesus.... if God is going to do it for them, no matter what?
Also, why does God give instructions to preachers and evangelists and missionaries, to Go and PREACH the Gospel and MAKE DISCIPLES....... if Calvin's lies are true?
See, there is no need to have Preachers, Apostles, Missionaries and Teachers, ....
There is no reason for a Church Building.
There is no reason for the GOSPEL....
There is no reason for any of this, if God has already decided and will CAUSE some to be born again.
They dont need to believe anything, if CALVIN is Right.
Here is the good news.
He isn't.
He was a heretic who burned people to death.
The only religious (fake christian) system that has harmed more of humanity then John Calvin, is the Catholic Church.
They have been burning people and ruining people's faith, and denying the Cross of Christ for a lot longer than Calvin.
I didn’t ask about the doctrine of predestination? You need to read my post again.
So being predestined has nothing to do with the Doctrine of Predestination? Predestine is the verbal form of predestination.
You ask why God is telling people they need to be believe if God is going to do it for them? Calvinists do not teach this and neither do I.
Please tell me where I ever said God believes for us. Or provide a quote where a Calvinist taught that. You can’t and you won’t.
And also why does God send preachers to preach if He already knows who is going to be saved? Because He chose to save people that way.
I am not a Calvinist, but you do know that many of the greatest evangelists and missionaries were Calvinist, right?
I am not a Calvinist, but Calvinists call people to believe and repent. You only show that you don’t know the first thing about Calvinist
In addition, I am not a Calvinist and the doctrine of predestination I hold is not Calvinistic, so you are missing the mark every time you type something.
It’s like you’re talking to someone else whose beliefs are radically different than mine.
I perceive that you have Calvinist Derangement Syndrome, which prevents you from hearing what I, a non-Calvinist is saying.
So being predestined has nothing to do with the Doctrine of Predestination? Predestine is the verbal form of predestination.
You ask why God is telling people they need to be believe if God is going to do it for them? Calvinists do not teach this and neither do I.
Please tell me where I ever said God believes for us. Or provide a quote where a Calvinist taught that. You can’t and you won’t.
And also why does God send preachers to preach if He already knows who is going to be saved? Because He chose to save people that way.
I am not a Calvinist, but you do know that many of the greatest evangelists and missionaries were Calvinist, right?
I am not a Calvinist, but Calvinists call people to believe and repent. You only show that you don’t know the first thing about Calvinist
In addition, I am not a Calvinist and the doctrine of predestination I hold is not Calvinistic, so you are missing the mark every time you type something.
It’s like you’re talking to someone else whose beliefs are radically different than mine.
I perceive that you have Calvinist Derangement Syndrome, which prevents you from hearing what I, a non-Calvinist is saying.
He isn't. Belief in Jesus isn't the cause of spiritual rebirth (becoming born again), it comes with spiritual rebirth. As you imply, the events of the Bible were not only, or even necessarily, intended for just those involved in what transpired within it. Instead, and in a larger sense, they were intended by God as object lessons for everyone - the "everyone" consisting of two groups (in no particular order): the first- the unsaved to demonstrate, attesting to them, that they are under judgment and will perish, thereby using it to give them notification ; the other group, the elect, who, through and by the Lord via the Gospel and the preaching of the Gospel, will grow in the wisdom, knowledge and fear of the Lord.
\[1Co 1:18 KJV]
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[2Co 2:14-16 KJV]
14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
[1Co 1:19-20, 23-24 KJV]
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? ...
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Its God who causes the spiritual birth.
God causes it to happen....>He births your spirit into His Holy Spirit, BY His Holy Spirit.
That is "born again".
See that? Its birth #2......>"again".....born.......again.
See, you are born once, and you can thank your mama for that one.
The 2nd Birth.......where jesus says.......>"you must be BORN AGAIN">......thats #2, and God causes that one.
When?
When you 1st believe in Jesus.
"faith is counted as righteousness.:""........"Abraham BELIEVED GOD.......and it was counted to him as righteousness".
"all that believe in Jesus, shall be saved". (born again).
I think you are mixing spiritual events. However, perhaps I don't entirely understand what you're saying.
When you say "you 1st believe in Jesus", I understand that to mean you think that we must
first believe in Christ to be born again. If I'm incorrect in that, please let me know.
However, I believe the Bible is crystal clear that faith (belief) can only come from the fruit of
the Holy Spirt, which fruit is only present AFTER someone becomes born again, not before. So, to me
it is like saying that one would need to already have faith to get faith. What have I misunderstood?
When you say "you 1st believe in Jesus", I understand that to mean you think that we must
first believe in Christ to be born again. If I'm incorrect in that, please let me know.
However, I believe the Bible is crystal clear that faith (belief) can only come from the fruit of
the Holy Spirt, which fruit is only present AFTER someone becomes born again, not before. So, to me
it is like saying that one would need to already have faith to get faith. What have I misunderstood?
Have you ever tried to lead someone to Christ?
So, look at this and notice that its crazy.
1. "" Hello, did you know that you are already born again, and if you will now believe in Jesus, you can go to heaven".
Now look at these 2 partial verses and one full.
See what is required?
Something has to happen before you can be born again, and that something involves free will....
"justification by : faith"
"faith : is counted as righteousness"
"Abraham believe God and it (the belief) was counted as righteousness"
In all cases, you have to use your free will to believe, as that is real FAITH.
Its not real faith if you are made to believe.
Its only real with you actually present real trust in Christ to God....after you hear the Gospel, and. :"Faith comes by hearing".
So, look at this and notice that its crazy.
1. "" Hello, did you know that you are already born again, and if you will now believe in Jesus, you can go to heaven".
Now look at these 2 partial verses and one full.
See what is required?
Something has to happen before you can be born again, and that something involves free will....
"justification by : faith"
"faith : is counted as righteousness"
"Abraham believe God and it (the belief) was counted as righteousness"
In all cases, you have to use your free will to believe, as that is real FAITH.
Its not real faith if you are made to believe.
Its only real with you actually present real trust in Christ to God....after you hear the Gospel, and. :"Faith comes by hearing".
And certain things have to happen for one to believe. They must hear the Gospel, they must be convicted and drawn by the Holy Spirit, and they must repent, which is the result of a Spirit wrought work on the hearer of the Gospel.
Repent and believe the Gospel
Repentance is a change of mind produced by the effectual and powerful work of the Gospel and of the Spirit. God leads to repentance and enables the hearer to believe.
Repent and believe the Gospel
Repentance is a change of mind produced by the effectual and powerful work of the Gospel and of the Spirit. God leads to repentance and enables the hearer to believe.
You are not teaching that God causes you to be born again, and free will is not involved.
So, thats good.
One thing..........."repent"....
This word in the context of SALVATiON, is very specific.
Its not to repent of your sin..........
Its to repent of your unbelief.
To turn from unbelief to BELIEF.
See that repentance?
Thats the TRUE repentance that happens when FAITH in CHRIST begins.
So, thats good.
One thing..........."repent"....
This word in the context of SALVATiON, is very specific.
Its not to repent of your sin..........
Its to repent of your unbelief.
To turn from unbelief to BELIEF.
See that repentance?
Thats the TRUE repentance that happens when FAITH in CHRIST begins.
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Unbelief itself is sin. And when one truly repents, there will be a change of nature and life as a result, though there will be a struggle and a progressive aspect to overcoming sin and the flesh.
For example, when I got saved I did not specifically say I would repent of this sin or that. But the next day, when I reached for drugs, God stopped me in my tracks, convicting me that that was sinful, and I have never used drugs since. But there are other sins I have to wrestle with. Wrestle with, not lay down and yield to them without a fight.
Repentance results in progressive sanctification as we yield to the Spirit. And if we really love God, we do not want to grieve the Spirit, though at times we do.
For example, when I got saved I did not specifically say I would repent of this sin or that. But the next day, when I reached for drugs, God stopped me in my tracks, convicting me that that was sinful, and I have never used drugs since. But there are other sins I have to wrestle with. Wrestle with, not lay down and yield to them without a fight.
Repentance results in progressive sanctification as we yield to the Spirit. And if we really love God, we do not want to grieve the Spirit, though at times we do.
PS, I always gave intellectual assent to the Gospel since I was a child. Intellectual assent is not faith. So repenting of unbelief to belief does not mean a mere assent and nod of the head to the Gospel. Millions of people believe the Gospel intellectually that have no faith that pleases God. So we need to carefully define our terms.
The statement that repentance means repenting of unbelief to belief is only true only if our definitions of belief and unbelief are accurate.
The statement that repentance means repenting of unbelief to belief is only true only if our definitions of belief and unbelief are accurate.
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Not crazy. Respectfully I don't think you understand either faith or salvation. Were we even be able to give ourselves faith,
(which I'm positive we can't), and were we saved by our faith (which I'm positive we aren't), then we would in effect have eliminated Christ as Savior and saved ourselves, making ourselves Savior - which salvation would be impossible. Our faith is not the faith that saves, Christ's faith is - Christ was faithful to the Father- our faith comes about from His faith as a gift. Please observe:
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Preaching to someone should not be of your "Hello, did you know...: example. It should be in the revelation of Christ. As stated by the verses I posted earlier, which I'll post again, some will respond to it, some won't. Those who do, do, only because they have been given ears to hear, eyes to see and a renewed mind to perceive, by the Holy Spirit. Without first being in possession of those, no amount of preaching, no matter how much, will make those preached to interested in Christ. However, for those born again, upon hearing (spiritually) with faith now being present within them, preaching will ignite their hunger for the word and their desire for a greater knowledge of Christ - all due to God's working within them. To get a better idea of preaching, I suggest that you look at Acts 2.:14 - 2:39
[1Co 1:18 KJV]
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[2Co 2:14-16 KJV]
14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
[1Co 1:19-20, 23-24 KJV]
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? ...
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
(which I'm positive we can't), and were we saved by our faith (which I'm positive we aren't), then we would in effect have eliminated Christ as Savior and saved ourselves, making ourselves Savior - which salvation would be impossible. Our faith is not the faith that saves, Christ's faith is - Christ was faithful to the Father- our faith comes about from His faith as a gift. Please observe:
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Preaching to someone should not be of your "Hello, did you know...: example. It should be in the revelation of Christ. As stated by the verses I posted earlier, which I'll post again, some will respond to it, some won't. Those who do, do, only because they have been given ears to hear, eyes to see and a renewed mind to perceive, by the Holy Spirit. Without first being in possession of those, no amount of preaching, no matter how much, will make those preached to interested in Christ. However, for those born again, upon hearing (spiritually) with faith now being present within them, preaching will ignite their hunger for the word and their desire for a greater knowledge of Christ - all due to God's working within them. To get a better idea of preaching, I suggest that you look at Acts 2.:14 - 2:39
[1Co 1:18 KJV]
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[2Co 2:14-16 KJV]
14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
[1Co 1:19-20, 23-24 KJV]
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? ...
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Let's start with what is imputation? What does it mean to have something "imputed" to another?
Imputation is basically a legal term. Therefore, in the Biblical sense, it has to do with satisfying the Law of God. I like the definition given on Google as it applies to the law.
Attributed vicariously. In the legal sense, the term imputed is used to describe an action, fact, or quality, the knowledge of which is charged to an individual based upon the actions of another for whom the individual is responsible rather than on the individual's own acts or omissions.
In Romans 4:5, the reader is directed not to his/her own faith but the object of faith - Jesus Christ. For we know, that Scripture teaches that only Jesus Christ satisfied the requirements of the Law. God knowing, by His eternal decrees, that this would take place, was free to "Impute" Christ's Righteousness to both the OT and NT Saints "account". This Righteousness was based on the "surety" of Christ's person and completed work before the foundation of the world; later proved to all men in the person and work of Jesus Christ in time.
We know for certain, that this imputation does not "make" our "personal" righteousness sinless or better. We are still filthy rags until we step into Glory. However, it does allow God to see us as "righteous" because of our association with Christ's Righteousness in our account. Christ satisfied the Law's requirements and in doing soo, by way of imputation, satisfied it for all of the Elect. Therefore, Scripture calls us "Saints" or Holy Ones, in this present time because we are seen by the Father through His Son's imputed righteousness given to each believer.
As previously discussed, God could proclaim each one of the Elect as righteous even before He created anything. In this way, The Father could place everyone of His chosen into the Lamb's Book of Life, before the foundation of the world (Rev.17:8).
The born again believer, lays hold of this imputed righteousness by the exercise of believing/faith. NOT that it is acquired by his/her faith, in the legal sense - it is already imputed to their account - but they come to know this fact by faith. By faith, the believer comes to a firm knowledge, before his/her own conscience, that the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to them. Without this knowledge, their own daily sins, would strip them of joy.
Here are a few comments from other men - John Gill:
his faith is counted for righteousness; not the act, but the object of it; which was Abraham's case, and therefore was not justified by works. The Vulgate Latin version here adds, "according to the purpose of the grace of God".
Albert Barnes:
In themselves they are equally undeserving, whether they are justified or not. Their souls have been defiled by sin; and that is known when they are pardoned. God judges things as they are; and sinners who are justified, he judges not as if they were pure, or as if they had a claim; but he regards them as united by faith to the Lord Jesus; and in this relation he judges that they should be treated as his friends, though they have been, are, and always will be, personally undeserving. It is not meant that the righteousness of Christ is transferred to them, so as to become personally theirs - for moral character cannot be transferred; nor that it is infused into them, making them personally meritorious - for then they could not be spoken of as ungodly; but that Christ died in their stead, to atone for their sins, and is regarded and esteemed by God to have died; and that the results or benefits of his death are so reckoned or imputed to believers as to make it proper for God to regard and treat them as if they had themselves obeyed the Law; that is, as righteous in his sight.
The more we learn, about what God has done for His chosen in Salvation, the more beautiful He becomes.
Imputation is basically a legal term. Therefore, in the Biblical sense, it has to do with satisfying the Law of God. I like the definition given on Google as it applies to the law.
Attributed vicariously. In the legal sense, the term imputed is used to describe an action, fact, or quality, the knowledge of which is charged to an individual based upon the actions of another for whom the individual is responsible rather than on the individual's own acts or omissions.
In Romans 4:5, the reader is directed not to his/her own faith but the object of faith - Jesus Christ. For we know, that Scripture teaches that only Jesus Christ satisfied the requirements of the Law. God knowing, by His eternal decrees, that this would take place, was free to "Impute" Christ's Righteousness to both the OT and NT Saints "account". This Righteousness was based on the "surety" of Christ's person and completed work before the foundation of the world; later proved to all men in the person and work of Jesus Christ in time.
We know for certain, that this imputation does not "make" our "personal" righteousness sinless or better. We are still filthy rags until we step into Glory. However, it does allow God to see us as "righteous" because of our association with Christ's Righteousness in our account. Christ satisfied the Law's requirements and in doing soo, by way of imputation, satisfied it for all of the Elect. Therefore, Scripture calls us "Saints" or Holy Ones, in this present time because we are seen by the Father through His Son's imputed righteousness given to each believer.
As previously discussed, God could proclaim each one of the Elect as righteous even before He created anything. In this way, The Father could place everyone of His chosen into the Lamb's Book of Life, before the foundation of the world (Rev.17:8).
The born again believer, lays hold of this imputed righteousness by the exercise of believing/faith. NOT that it is acquired by his/her faith, in the legal sense - it is already imputed to their account - but they come to know this fact by faith. By faith, the believer comes to a firm knowledge, before his/her own conscience, that the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to them. Without this knowledge, their own daily sins, would strip them of joy.
Here are a few comments from other men - John Gill:
his faith is counted for righteousness; not the act, but the object of it; which was Abraham's case, and therefore was not justified by works. The Vulgate Latin version here adds, "according to the purpose of the grace of God".
Albert Barnes:
In themselves they are equally undeserving, whether they are justified or not. Their souls have been defiled by sin; and that is known when they are pardoned. God judges things as they are; and sinners who are justified, he judges not as if they were pure, or as if they had a claim; but he regards them as united by faith to the Lord Jesus; and in this relation he judges that they should be treated as his friends, though they have been, are, and always will be, personally undeserving. It is not meant that the righteousness of Christ is transferred to them, so as to become personally theirs - for moral character cannot be transferred; nor that it is infused into them, making them personally meritorious - for then they could not be spoken of as ungodly; but that Christ died in their stead, to atone for their sins, and is regarded and esteemed by God to have died; and that the results or benefits of his death are so reckoned or imputed to believers as to make it proper for God to regard and treat them as if they had themselves obeyed the Law; that is, as righteous in his sight.
The more we learn, about what God has done for His chosen in Salvation, the more beautiful He becomes.
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Yes, God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Everything, including knowledge of events, is with God in the ever present now of Eternity.
But how do you understand, "foreknowledge"? as used in Rom.8:29? How one answers this question and sees this word, tells you a lot about what they believe. Is God's choice from within His own Counsel or is He reacting to what his creation does in time?
If you believe, that to "foreknow" someone, is to look down through time and choose those that chose God's Son, then you make God out to be reacting to His creature. This put's man ahead of God in His Election. Election, as described in Scripture, would be no more Election. Election in Scripture, is based upon God's Sovereign Choice, NOT God's choice being dictated by the ones who would believe. This choice would then be based upon "merit" God would owe or be indebted to this person for believing upon His Son.
The word "foreknew" (Rom.8:29), means to know one in an "intimate" way. To have an intimate relation with the Elect before anything was created. To believe that, "foreknew", means looking through time, will cause a real problem for ones understanding of this verse.
Mat_7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Of course God knows everything about everyone, so this knowing must be in an intimate way. Christ never knew them in an intimate relationship. Additionally, "to know" in the Old Testament, means extreme intimacy.
But how do you understand, "foreknowledge"? as used in Rom.8:29? How one answers this question and sees this word, tells you a lot about what they believe. Is God's choice from within His own Counsel or is He reacting to what his creation does in time?
If you believe, that to "foreknow" someone, is to look down through time and choose those that chose God's Son, then you make God out to be reacting to His creature. This put's man ahead of God in His Election. Election, as described in Scripture, would be no more Election. Election in Scripture, is based upon God's Sovereign Choice, NOT God's choice being dictated by the ones who would believe. This choice would then be based upon "merit" God would owe or be indebted to this person for believing upon His Son.
The word "foreknew" (Rom.8:29), means to know one in an "intimate" way. To have an intimate relation with the Elect before anything was created. To believe that, "foreknew", means looking through time, will cause a real problem for ones understanding of this verse.
Mat_7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Of course God knows everything about everyone, so this knowing must be in an intimate way. Christ never knew them in an intimate relationship. Additionally, "to know" in the Old Testament, means extreme intimacy.
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