predestination vs freewill
- Thread starter Ivon
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
When did I say I believe in double predesination? Or Equal Ultimacy?
I don’t.
In this passage, foreknowledge means the kind of knowledge alluded to in Amos 3:2. Add the concept of “fore” to that type of knowledge, and that’s what the text means.
It has to mean that because God does not predestine, call, justify, and glorify everyone He foreknows in the way you’re using the word.
To assert that would be to argue for universalism. You have not thought your position through to its logical conclusion.
Whom He foreknew, He also predestined, called, justified, glorified. Is this true of everyone God foreknew in the sense that you are using the word?
I don’t.
In this passage, foreknowledge means the kind of knowledge alluded to in Amos 3:2. Add the concept of “fore” to that type of knowledge, and that’s what the text means.
It has to mean that because God does not predestine, call, justify, and glorify everyone He foreknows in the way you’re using the word.
To assert that would be to argue for universalism. You have not thought your position through to its logical conclusion.
Whom He foreknew, He also predestined, called, justified, glorified. Is this true of everyone God foreknew in the sense that you are using the word?
Being conformed to the image of Jesus happens after salvation, correct.
The predestining of that happens before you get saved, based on God foreknowing you.
It’s not logical or scriptural to say that God predestined you to be conformed to His Son, (ie sanctified and glorified and raised), without the fact that you would be saved already being established. Because God has perfect foreknowledge of you.
God knew you would be one of His and predestined your end. Has nothing to do with predestining people to hell. I do not hold to double predestination
The predestining of that happens before you get saved, based on God foreknowing you.
It’s not logical or scriptural to say that God predestined you to be conformed to His Son, (ie sanctified and glorified and raised), without the fact that you would be saved already being established. Because God has perfect foreknowledge of you.
God knew you would be one of His and predestined your end. Has nothing to do with predestining people to hell. I do not hold to double predestination
Grace is imparted by God to us, to enable us to do what we can not do without is;
Grace is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of grace. We who have the Holy Spirit can also impart grace to there as we speak the word of truth to them, in which grace is imparted.
Grace is a noun; a person, place or thing.
Grace is what we receive from God.
Grace is not something we do, but rather the person of the Holy Spirit that leads us and teaches to walk in truth, in righteousness and love.
Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, Titus 2:11-12
JPT
Our "new birth" was not predestined at all.
The predestination to be conformed is the born again SPIRIT., that is to be "conformed into the image of Christ".
So, THAT is what is predestined to happen to every born again Spirit.
To enter into that "conformed into the image" that is predestined to happen, you have to BELIEVE, and be BORN AGAIN.
So, that part, is your FREE WILL, and that part is not predestined, ........as FREE WILL is not predestined, nor can it be.
The predestination to be conformed is the born again SPIRIT., that is to be "conformed into the image of Christ".
So, THAT is what is predestined to happen to every born again Spirit.
To enter into that "conformed into the image" that is predestined to happen, you have to BELIEVE, and be BORN AGAIN.
So, that part, is your FREE WILL, and that part is not predestined, ........as FREE WILL is not predestined, nor can it be.
God knows what you are thinking right now.
So, is he predestining you to think it?
You are stuck in the heresy of, .....>"God's foreknowledge of who will be born again, proves God predestined them to do it".
So, this is the hyper Calvinist heresy of.....>"foreknowledge means God caused it all to happen".
That heresy denies free will.
See, just because God knew that Hitler is going to kill 6 million Jews, before Hitler is born, is not God predestining Hitler to arrive and kill 6 million Jews.
PRE- Knowing (foreknowledge) is not the same as causing.
God knows who will be born again, but He does not cause this.....
And after they are born again by God, based on their FREE WILL FAITH TO BELIEVE IN JESUS......God gives the new birth to their spirit, and that begins the pre-destined process of conforming the born again spirit "into the image of Christ".
So, is he predestining you to think it?
You are stuck in the heresy of, .....>"God's foreknowledge of who will be born again, proves God predestined them to do it".
So, this is the hyper Calvinist heresy of.....>"foreknowledge means God caused it all to happen".
That heresy denies free will.
See, just because God knew that Hitler is going to kill 6 million Jews, before Hitler is born, is not God predestining Hitler to arrive and kill 6 million Jews.
PRE- Knowing (foreknowledge) is not the same as causing.
God knows who will be born again, but He does not cause this.....
And after they are born again by God, based on their FREE WILL FAITH TO BELIEVE IN JESUS......God gives the new birth to their spirit, and that begins the pre-destined process of conforming the born again spirit "into the image of Christ".
-
1
- Show all
So are you saying that we are saved before we are called and justified, or are you saying Paul got the order wrong in Romans 8:29-30?
It is clear that we are foreknown before we are predestined.
And we are foreknown and called before we are justified.
And we are foreknown, called, and justified before we are glorified.
So the only word Paul got out of order was predestined?
And how were we chosen before the earth’s foundation ( Ephesians 1:4-5) without being predestined?
And how is it that God knew we would be saved without purposing to conform us to the image of His Son.
Why are the hands of the Onniscient God tied by our actions to such an extent that He cannot know and purpose in His heart that He is going to finish and complete the salvation that He knows He will begin?
It is clear that we are foreknown before we are predestined.
And we are foreknown and called before we are justified.
And we are foreknown, called, and justified before we are glorified.
So the only word Paul got out of order was predestined?
And how were we chosen before the earth’s foundation ( Ephesians 1:4-5) without being predestined?
And how is it that God knew we would be saved without purposing to conform us to the image of His Son.
Why are the hands of the Onniscient God tied by our actions to such an extent that He cannot know and purpose in His heart that He is going to finish and complete the salvation that He knows He will begin?
God predetermined that those who will believe, all of whom He foreknew, would be conformed to the image of His Son.
My point is this…nowhere in scripture does it say that God needs to wait for us to believe to foreknow us Or predestine us, seeing He foreknows us.
What scripture says that we have to be saved before can purpose that He will conform us to the image of His Son?
The burden of proof is on you to support your position scriptural.
My point is this…nowhere in scripture does it say that God needs to wait for us to believe to foreknow us Or predestine us, seeing He foreknows us.
What scripture says that we have to be saved before can purpose that He will conform us to the image of His Son?
The burden of proof is on you to support your position scriptural.