Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?

[Runningman]

Now we are getting somewhere.

So now that Sodom and Gomorrah have been punished, they will be resurrected and killed again?

Yes. Those who God deems unrighteous will experience a second death.

Revelation 20:13-15
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Only problem is, the Bible says they are awaiting judgment and it will be worse. It is the FIRST DEATH, and the SECOND DEATH.

Where does the Bible say that? Book, chapter, verse, please.

Lets review the Scriptures, do any of these give off the idea of dying and you gone:

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. This verse makes no sense if the second death is just like the first one. You die and you gone.

The purpose of the second death is to be resurrected to damnation (which means to face a judgement)

John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Eternal life and eternal punishment. Same word for both.

Only the righteous receive eternal life. The punishment is called and eternal punishment because it's the second death. (Revelation 20:14) Death is eternal and a punishment.

Death = eternal punishment.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Tormented day and night forever and ever, the false prophet is undoubtedly a HUMAN, this same lake of fire is where the unbelievers are cast into:

They will not be literally tormented day and night forever. The devil is destroyed in the lake of fire where the beast, false prophet, and everyone else gets thrown into. It only stands to reason that given the Bible teaches annihilation that all who go to the lake of fire meet the same end: the second death. complete and total destruction.

Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Correct. The second death is an eternal punishment because death lasts forever.

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. Another verse that makes no sense if you are an annihilationist. I would rather live with two hands and then go to the annihiliatonist hell where I burn up and cease to exist.

It makes perfect sense. Getting destroyed in hell isn't a reason to not be concerned about facing that consequence. People should avoid it at all costs because it will be painful.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Again you cannot have everlasting shame and contempt without being conscious

This verse does not say that those who have shame and everlasting contempt will be the one experiencing it.

The word for contempt used here is H1860 deraon.

In Isaiah 66:24, those who have already died are abhorrent (same word used here: H1860 deraon) to all flesh. Their legacy, their memory, will cause aversion, abhorrence, and feelings of contempt to all flesh (all people.)

Isaiah 66:24
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Matthew 11:22
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. This and many other verses also prove that while these cities were wiped out (sometimes by Fire like in the case of Sodom) they are still awaiting judgment, the eternal lake of fire. Saying this cause almost all the annihilationist proof texts revolve around saying apollumi means cease to exist or quoting verses about "wicked shall be cut off" and plucked from the land etc. Which are all talking about the FIRST DEATH, not the second death.

There's a difference between physical destruction and spiritual destruction. A city does not need to be physically standing for their inhabitants to be awaiting spiritual judgement.[/QUOTE]

 

[TheLearner]

Why is the grave referred to as being a land with gates?

 

[Hakawaka]

The great tribulation doesnt last forever and ever LOL. It lasts 42 months. Read Rev 11 and 13 to see that.

That exactly is the problem. Cause Revelation 14:11 which you guys claim is about the great tribulation DOES SAY Forever and ever..... TThanks for proving myp oint!

 

[Hakawaka]

They will not be literally tormented day and night forever.

All I need to respond to in this long post, this conversation is over. The verse said they will be, you say "not literally"

Thats where the problem is. This is where annihilationism leads to, eventually.

 

[TheLearner]

Everyone starts with a bias and read texts in light of that bias. Using history and greek scholars in context overcomes our bias. However, those who put someone puts their faith in a prophet of some kind be it the watchtower or Ellen White they are unable to be objective regardless of the evidence.

 

[Runningman]

All I need to respond to in this long post, this conversation is over. The verse said they will be, you say "not literally"

Thats where the problem is. This is where annihilationism leads to, eventually.

Revelation 20:10 says the devil is tormented day and night forever.

Hebrews 2:14 says the devil is destroyed.

So which one is it then? The devil can't be tormented day and night forever and also be destroyed. That means an interpretation must be formed.

The most consistent interpretation I see is that "forever and ever" is not equal to eternity in this case. Meaning that "forever and ever" is not literal.

 

[ewq1938]

That exactly is the problem. Cause Revelation 14:11 which you guys claim is about the great tribulation DOES SAY Forever and ever.....

Part of verse speaks of smoke from the lake of fire rising up forever. It's a figure of speech that means the people burned will stay dead and be destroyed forever. The second part of verse changes to a different point in time, when people take mark of beast and will not rest day or night. That is separate from the topic in first part of the verse. The no rest day or night is not said to last forever.

 

[Hakawaka]

Revelation 20:10 says the devil is tormented day and night forever.

Hebrews 2:14 says the devil is destroyed.

So which one is it then? The devil can't be tormented day and night forever and also be destroyed. That means an interpretation must be formed.

The most consistent interpretation I see is that "forever and ever" is not equal to eternity in this case. Meaning that "forever and ever" is not literal.

Hebrews 2:14 says satan was destroyed already.... Jesus destroyed him at the cross. His power which is fear of death

 

[Hakawaka]

Part of verse speaks of smoke from the lake of fire rising up forever. It's a figure of speech that means the people burned will stay dead and be destroyed forever. The second part of verse changes to a different point in time, when people take mark of beast and will not rest day or night. That is separate from the topic in first part of the verse. The no rest day or night is not said to last forever.

How convenient, its speaking of totally different things. You guys are something else, just dodging the truth in every possible way. No scripture is safe.

 

[Runningman]

Hebrews 2:14 says satan was destroyed already.... Jesus destroyed him at the cross. His power which is fear of death

How do you have the devil literally tormented day and night forever if he is also destroyed?

The word for destroyed (G2673) can be used in numerous ways based on context, but the translators of the KJV chose to render Hebrews 2:14 as the devil being destroyed. So that's what I am going to go with.

Now you see the devil is/was destroyed. It makes no difference when the devil is destroyed, only that Hebrews 2:14 says his destruction is sure.

 

[1ofthem]

Revelation 20:10 says the devil is tormented day and night forever.

Hebrews 2:14 says the devil is destroyed.

So which one is it then? The devil can't be tormented day and night forever and also be destroyed. That means an interpretation must be formed.

The most consistent interpretation I see is that "forever and ever" is not equal to eternity in this case. Meaning that "forever and ever" is not literal.

Looks like either way anyone goes about it, they are going to have change the meaning of a word. Either, forever doesn't mean forever, or death doesn't mean end of existence.

I think I am going to have to stick with "eternal punishment"

There are scriptures in the Bible where death doesn't actually equate to annihilation.

Spiritual death = separation from God.
Reborn = the spirit is made alive again

Natural death = death of body but the soul is still in existence (Parable of Lazarus and the rich man) somewhere waiting for judgement

Natural death = separation of body, soul, spirit. The BODY is just a vessel it decays. The SOUL is the consciousness of man, (the thoughts, will, and emotions). The soul is part that is still conscious and awaiting judgement. The SPIRIT goes back to God.

God first gave the spirit to Adam after he sinned it died or was separated from God. Body and soul was still in existence, though.

Jesus died to take away the sin that separated us from God. Faith in him causes to spirit to come alive (regenerate).
This is the second birth or born again. In this the spirit is now in control of the soul and the body.

So it seems 2nd death would have to follow along this same line.

At death the spirit goes back to God. The body decays and the soul is somewhere awaiting judgment.

At judgment God gives the spirit of the dead back and even their bodies will be resurrected. At this time, if spirit was not regenerated because they did not accept the sacrifice of Christ, then it will die again for the 2nd and last time = separated from God forever. This 2nd time the spirit will remain dead or separated from God forever because there remains no more sacrifice. Jesus is not coming back to sacrifice and die again. The next time He comes, He is coming for judgement.

If 2nd death follows along the same lines of the first death then the consciousness of man will still exist, but separated from God forever... eternal damnation and punishment. They will have no rest day or night because Jesus is our only rest and they rejected him. So they will live on forever with the knowledge of this.

 

[1ofthem]

How do you have the devil literally tormented day and night forever if he is also destroyed?

The word for destroyed (G2673) can be used in numerous ways based on context, but the translators of the KJV chose to render Hebrews 2:14 as the devil being destroyed. So that's what I am going to go with.

Now you see the devil is/was destroyed. It makes no difference when the devil is destroyed, only that Hebrews 2:14 says his destruction is sure.

He was already destroyed at the cross. Jesus actually defeated Satan took the power of death away from Satan at the cross. However, it is up to man to put their faith in Jesus and because they don't the devil still has some power to deceive.

This next and last time that Jesus comes it is for judgment and He will take complete power away from the devil then. Satan's power will be completely destroyed.... He will no longer be able to deceive anyone else forever. He will be thrown into the lake of fire and tormented day and night forever.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Looks like either way anyone goes about it, they are going to have change the meaning of a word. Either, forever doesn't mean forever, or death doesn't mean end of existence.

I think I am going to have to stick with "eternal punishment"

There are scriptures in the Bible where death doesn't actually equate to annihilation.

Spiritual death = separation from God.
Reborn = the spirit is made alive again

Natural death = death of body but the soul is still in existence (Parable of Lazarus and the rich man) somewhere waiting for judgement

Natural death = separation of body, soul, spirit. The BODY is just a vessel it decays. The SOUL is the consciousness of man, (the thoughts, will, and emotions). The soul is part that is still conscious and awaiting judgement. The SPIRIT goes back to God.

God first gave the spirit to Adam after he sinned it died or was separated from God. Body and soul was still in existence, though.

Jesus died to take away the sin that separated us from God. Faith in him causes to spirit to come alive (regenerate).
This is the second birth or born again. In this the spirit is now in control of the soul and the body.

So it seems 2nd death would have to follow along this same line.

At death the spirit goes back to God. The body decays and the soul is somewhere awaiting judgment.

At judgment God gives the spirit of the dead back and even their bodies will be resurrected. At this time, if spirit was not regenerated because they did not accept the sacrifice of Christ, then it will die again for the 2nd and last time = separated from God forever. This 2nd time the spirit will remain dead or separated from God forever because there remains no more sacrifice. Jesus is not coming back to sacrifice and die again. The next time He comes, He is coming for judgement.

If 2nd death follows along the same lines of the first death then the consciousness of man will still exist, but separated from God forever... eternal damnation and punishment. They will have no rest day or night because Jesus is our only rest and they rejected him. So they will live on forever with the knowledge of this.

That was a good summary. We are spiritual beings because we are created in God's image. The sheep will live eternally with God but the goats or the corrupted ones will be tormented forever. It is very clear how second death is described in revelation. It means eternal torment not annihilation. No need to find other verses about death or destruction in the Bible because death is not annihilation.

 

[Runningman]

Looks like either way anyone goes about it, they are going to have change the meaning of a word. Either, forever doesn't mean forever, or death doesn't mean end of existence.

I think I am going to have to stick with "eternal punishment"

There are scriptures in the Bible where death doesn't actually equate to annihilation.

Spiritual death = separation from God.
Reborn = the spirit is made alive again

Natural death = death of body but the soul is still in existence (Parable of Lazarus and the rich man) somewhere waiting for judgement

Natural death = separation of body, soul, spirit. The BODY is just a vessel it decays. The SOUL is the consciousness of man, (the thoughts, will, and emotions). The soul is part that is still conscious and awaiting judgement. The SPIRIT goes back to God.

God first gave the spirit to Adam after he sinned it died or was separated from God. Body and soul was still in existence, though.

Jesus died to take away the sin that separated us from God. Faith in him causes to spirit to come alive (regenerate).
This is the second birth or born again. In this the spirit is now in control of the soul and the body.

So it seems 2nd death would have to follow along this same line.

At death the spirit goes back to God. The body decays and the soul is somewhere awaiting judgment.

At judgment God gives the spirit of the dead back and even their bodies will be resurrected. At this time, if spirit was not regenerated because they did not accept the sacrifice of Christ, then it will die again for the 2nd and last time = separated from God forever. This 2nd time the spirit will remain dead or separated from God forever because there remains no more sacrifice. Jesus is not coming back to sacrifice and die again. The next time He comes, He is coming for judgement.

If 2nd death follows along the same lines of the first death then the consciousness of man will still exist, but separated from God forever... eternal damnation and punishment. They will have no rest day or night because Jesus is our only rest and they rejected him. So they will live on forever with the knowledge of this.

My problem with that interpretation is that we have to jump through a lot of hoops just to reach your final conclusion. There's no reason to favor convoluted interpretation over what the plain text presents in no uncertain terms.

Exodus 22:20
20He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Matthew 7:13
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 9:22-23
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory

Philippians 1:28
28And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

And many many more, but leaving them out to keep this post short.

 

[1ofthem]

I know some may say.... what about Sodom and Gomorrah? The scripture says that their fire will burn forever. So it couldn't really mean forever could it?

Well, I think that is evident that it does mean forever. The souls that were in Sodom and Gomorrah are still in hell awaiting judgment, and when judgment comes they will be thrown in the Lake of Fire forever. So yeah, God set them on fire, they are still burning, and will burn forever.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

So yeah, It seems their fire will burn forever and never be extinguished.

 

[1ofthem]

My problem with that interpretation is that we have to jump through a lot of hoops just to reach your final conclusion. There's no reason to favor convoluted interpretation over what the plain text presents in no uncertain terms.

Exodus 22:20
20He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Matthew 7:13
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 9:22-23
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory

Philippians 1:28
28And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

And many many more, but leaving them out to keep this post short.

I see your point, but either way we look at it we are going to have to jump through some hoops or make some conclusions or connections.

The devil can either be destroyed or tortured day and night forever. If we take that literal then both can't be true. So either destroyed doesn't mean annihilated or forever doesn't mean forever.

For me, it is easier to make the connection supporting the eternal (forever) aspect of the punishment rather than annihilation.

I am still praying about it and considering it, but so far, I have not been able to change my mind that eternal conscious punishment is what is being described in scripture.... Even though I've tried and have put a lot of thought and study into it, I keep coming back to the same conclusion on it...that it means eternal conscious punishment.

 

[1ofthem]

If 2nd death follows along the same lines of the first death then the consciousness of man will still exist, but separated from God forever... eternal damnation and punishment. They will have no rest day or night because Jesus is our only rest and they rejected him. So they will live on forever with the knowledge of this.

Correction to the last sentence**** They will live on forever in "spiritual death" with the knowledge of this****

 

[Hakawaka]

Looks like either way anyone goes about it, they are going to have change the meaning of a word. Either, forever doesn't mean forever, or death doesn't mean end of existence.

I think I am going to have to stick with "eternal punishment"

There are scriptures in the Bible where death doesn't actually equate to annihilation.

Spiritual death = separation from God.
Reborn = the spirit is made alive again

Natural death = death of body but the soul is still in existence (Parable of Lazarus and the rich man) somewhere waiting for judgement

Natural death = separation of body, soul, spirit. The BODY is just a vessel it decays. The SOUL is the consciousness of man, (the thoughts, will, and emotions). The soul is part that is still conscious and awaiting judgement. The SPIRIT goes back to God.

God first gave the spirit to Adam after he sinned it died or was separated from God. Body and soul was still in existence, though.

Jesus died to take away the sin that separated us from God. Faith in him causes to spirit to come alive (regenerate).
This is the second birth or born again. In this the spirit is now in control of the soul and the body.

So it seems 2nd death would have to follow along this same line.

At death the spirit goes back to God. The body decays and the soul is somewhere awaiting judgment.

At judgment God gives the spirit of the dead back and even their bodies will be resurrected. At this time, if spirit was not regenerated because they did not accept the sacrifice of Christ, then it will die again for the 2nd and last time = separated from God forever. This 2nd time the spirit will remain dead or separated from God forever because there remains no more sacrifice. Jesus is not coming back to sacrifice and die again. The next time He comes, He is coming for judgement.

If 2nd death follows along the same lines of the first death then the consciousness of man will still exist, but separated from God forever... eternal damnation and punishment. They will have no rest day or night because Jesus is our only rest and they rejected him. So they will live on forever with the knowledge of this.

Great reasoning and very scriptural.

This is exactly how I came to the conclusion as well.

And I know the appeal to authority is not a good way to make arguments, but in this case I would like to point out: The great men of the past, were almost without exception believing as you said, eternal torment. Today it is the cults like Jehovah's witnesses who are known for their annihilationist views.

And to your CORRECT conclusion on the nature of death, I will quote a pastor who once said (or quoted someone as well )
"Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once"

 

[Runningman]

I see your point, but either way we look at it we are going to have to jump through some hoops or make some conclusions or connections.

The devil can either be destroyed or tortured day and night forever. If we take that literal then both can't be true. So either destroyed doesn't mean annihilated or forever doesn't mean forever.

For me, it is easier to make the connection supporting the eternal (forever) aspect of the punishment rather than annihilation.

I am still praying about it and considering it, but so far, I have not been able to change my mind that eternal conscious punishment is what is being described in scripture.... Even though I've tried and have put a lot of thought and study into it, I keep coming back to the same conclusion on it...that it means eternal conscious punishment.

If you want to do that then why not take an average of the verses that support eternal torment versus the number that support destruction? There's one verse that literally says anyone gets tormented forever and it's precisely three persons: the devil, beast, and false prophet, but that comes with a plot twist. The devil is/will be destroyed in Hebrews 2:14.

The ratio of eternal torment verses to annihilation verses is something like 1:~15-20. (I'm taking my best guess, I haven't counted... yet) So the odds of eternal torment being scriptural are slim even if we factor in a few of the verses that seem to be borderline pro-eternal torment.

I fully believe the Bible is complete and without contradiction. The case for annihilation is 100% biblical in my view.

And no I am not a Jehovah's Witness or anywhere close to that. I'm a humble Bible scholar with nothing but sincerity in my pursuit of truth.

 

[Hakawaka]

If you want to do that then why not take an average of the verses that support eternal torment versus the number that support destruction? There's one verse that literally says anyone gets tormented forever and it's precisely three persons: the devil, beast, and false prophet, but that comes with a plot twist. The devil is/will be destroyed in Hebrews 2:14.

The ratio of eternal torment verses to annihilation verses is something like 1:~15-20. (I'm taking my best guess, I haven't counted... yet) So the odds of eternal torment being scriptural are slim even if we factor in a few of the verses that seem to be borderline pro-eternal torment.

I fully believe the Bible is complete and without contradiction. The case for annihilation is 100% biblical in my view.

And no I am not a Jehovah's Witness or anywhere close to that. I'm a humble Bible scholar with nothing but sincerity in my pursuit of truth.

You keep saying devil WILL be, it says of a past event in Hebrews 2:14.

Its talking about what Jesus did on the cross