Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson
- Thread starter ChosenbyHim
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
It's an interesting topic. How we all choose according to our nature.
There's a couple of things I would say
1. God did not create evil.
2. God did not create the possibility for evil either. However,He definitely knew beforehand that there would be evil and therefore allowed it and even decreed it. We know this because His plan of salvation was from before the beginning of time as we read in 2 Timothy 1:9.
So God did not create evil, nor did he create a mere possibility of evil (this is a form open theism or molinism). God Knew exactly what was going to happen.
You have to ask what is evil? Evil is to do with morality, anything that does not conform to, or contradicts Holiness, or the Holiness of God.
Therefore, since the fall man has a complete inability to be morally good or pleasing to God. He is morally dead/spiritually dead. And it is from this nature (since the fall) that man makes all his choices freely.
So you have basically 3 choices:
1. The above is not true and man is morally neutral (man's nature was not affected by the fall). (Pelagianism)
2. Man can only come to God if the Holy Spirit draws Him. He can still choose morally good even though still dead spiritually. (Arminian)
3. Man will never choose God from his fallen nature. It takes God to renew his heart for him to turn to God (Reformed)
No.1 Is heresy.
No.2 Is the Arminian/Wesleyan position.
No.3 Is the reformed position.
(All of these are not detailed just descriptions)
So now hopefully people will think about what does free will actually mean..!!! You are not morally neutral!!
BTW, this post is not aimed at EG or anyone in particular but just a thought spring boarding from the posts previous to this.
There's a couple of things I would say
1. God did not create evil.
2. God did not create the possibility for evil either. However,He definitely knew beforehand that there would be evil and therefore allowed it and even decreed it. We know this because His plan of salvation was from before the beginning of time as we read in 2 Timothy 1:9.
So God did not create evil, nor did he create a mere possibility of evil (this is a form open theism or molinism). God Knew exactly what was going to happen.
You have to ask what is evil? Evil is to do with morality, anything that does not conform to, or contradicts Holiness, or the Holiness of God.
Therefore, since the fall man has a complete inability to be morally good or pleasing to God. He is morally dead/spiritually dead. And it is from this nature (since the fall) that man makes all his choices freely.
So you have basically 3 choices:
1. The above is not true and man is morally neutral (man's nature was not affected by the fall). (Pelagianism)
2. Man can only come to God if the Holy Spirit draws Him. He can still choose morally good even though still dead spiritually. (Arminian)
3. Man will never choose God from his fallen nature. It takes God to renew his heart for him to turn to God (Reformed)
No.1 Is heresy.
No.2 Is the Arminian/Wesleyan position.
No.3 Is the reformed position.
(All of these are not detailed just descriptions)
So now hopefully people will think about what does free will actually mean..!!! You are not morally neutral!!
BTW, this post is not aimed at EG or anyone in particular but just a thought spring boarding from the posts previous to this.
-
1
- Show all
When Jn 6:44 is quoted, it is important to include the next verse, which explains clearly who will come to Jesus.
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
So, everyone who listens and learns from the Father come to Jesus.
Cornelius is a great example of this.
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
So, everyone who listens and learns from the Father come to Jesus.
Cornelius is a great example of this.
The word "us" here is defined by Paul in v.19; "us who believe". So v.4 teaches that God chose believers to be holy and blameless.
This is service.
Proved by 1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
This verse proves that Eph 1:4 is about election to service. Here, believers are "called to a holy life". In Eph 1:4, believers are chosen to be holy and blameless. Same thing.
Noted!
Please quote a verse that says faith is a fruit of election.
Nope. Doesn't say faith is a fruit of election.
Yes. But God does NOT choose who will believe, which is the foundation of Calvinism's doctrine of election.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
This is God's choice of who He will save; believers.
Then, He chooses (elect) believers to be holy and blameless.
This is service.
Proved by 1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
This verse proves that Eph 1:4 is about election to service. Here, believers are "called to a holy life". In Eph 1:4, believers are chosen to be holy and blameless. Same thing.
Noted!
Please quote a verse that says faith is a fruit of election.
Nope. Doesn't say faith is a fruit of election.
Yes. But God does NOT choose who will believe, which is the foundation of Calvinism's doctrine of election.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
This is God's choice of who He will save; believers.
Then, He chooses (elect) believers to be holy and blameless.
E
Thank you for this post. Just a few notes.
You gave three options, I want to add one
Adam and Eve were created perfect. According to this. They had a will that could not only do righteous things, but they were given the option to also chose to go against God, by eating of the forbidden fruit.
Since they were given the option to CHOSE to do right, or do wrong (evil) In effect. the possibility of evil was created by God by giving both Adam and eve free will
Man chose to rebel (evil) and hence, Because God gave the ability by giving man free will. Man fell and was in a fallen state.
Since that time. Man STILL has the ability to do good (Paul insisted how true this is saying the following in
Romans 2:14
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
In other words, A non believer can honor their parents. They can chose not to steel. They can chose not to commit adultry and live a life where the marriage bed is not defiled. They can chose not to slander, etc etc. the list goes on. While we know many gentile cultures were evil. Paul here declairs that not all gentiles chose bad 100%.
While according to the law. they, as well as jews, are condemned, because all have sinned and fall short. To say they can not do good is just wrong.
As far as can a believer chose Christ? or chose God? Well there is a seperation. the human spirit is dead. Hence we can not understand the things of God. this is where God comes in. He gives the ability to understand through the HS, Through the word and through his people (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God) with the help of the spirit. And even through his nature, so that as Paul said in romans 1. He has no excuse. He allowed them to make their own Gods. But even they know who the real God is and that they are condemned because of sin. No one will get to heaven not knowing. Or paul is a liar
As Jesus said, When the HS is sent he will convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment. The world here is the lost. those who are judged those who are sinners, and those who will be judged if they do not repent.
anyway,
I think we are in danger if we try to put people under the guise of a religion, when we do this, we tie them up in some religious doctrine. which from what I have witnessed since I have been in CC is about 90 % of the time nothing even close to what the person believes. I think we need to stick to the word. This should not be a calvinist vs arminian thing. There are very few true calvinist I have even met, and I am not sure I have ever met a true arminian. Most people (like myself)are inbetween. I have been called a calvinist and an arminian from both sides. And then we wonder we we can never actually discuss. Because people hear key words, and say Yep. I know what he believes. When in reality. he has no clue.
This is not a knock on Phil36 or others, I just wanted to add my two cents and give another option. We should always be open
You gave three options, I want to add one
Adam and Eve were created perfect. According to this. They had a will that could not only do righteous things, but they were given the option to also chose to go against God, by eating of the forbidden fruit.
Since they were given the option to CHOSE to do right, or do wrong (evil) In effect. the possibility of evil was created by God by giving both Adam and eve free will
Man chose to rebel (evil) and hence, Because God gave the ability by giving man free will. Man fell and was in a fallen state.
Since that time. Man STILL has the ability to do good (Paul insisted how true this is saying the following in
Romans 2:14
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
In other words, A non believer can honor their parents. They can chose not to steel. They can chose not to commit adultry and live a life where the marriage bed is not defiled. They can chose not to slander, etc etc. the list goes on. While we know many gentile cultures were evil. Paul here declairs that not all gentiles chose bad 100%.
While according to the law. they, as well as jews, are condemned, because all have sinned and fall short. To say they can not do good is just wrong.
As far as can a believer chose Christ? or chose God? Well there is a seperation. the human spirit is dead. Hence we can not understand the things of God. this is where God comes in. He gives the ability to understand through the HS, Through the word and through his people (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God) with the help of the spirit. And even through his nature, so that as Paul said in romans 1. He has no excuse. He allowed them to make their own Gods. But even they know who the real God is and that they are condemned because of sin. No one will get to heaven not knowing. Or paul is a liar
As Jesus said, When the HS is sent he will convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment. The world here is the lost. those who are judged those who are sinners, and those who will be judged if they do not repent.
anyway,
I think we are in danger if we try to put people under the guise of a religion, when we do this, we tie them up in some religious doctrine. which from what I have witnessed since I have been in CC is about 90 % of the time nothing even close to what the person believes. I think we need to stick to the word. This should not be a calvinist vs arminian thing. There are very few true calvinist I have even met, and I am not sure I have ever met a true arminian. Most people (like myself)are inbetween. I have been called a calvinist and an arminian from both sides. And then we wonder we we can never actually discuss. Because people hear key words, and say Yep. I know what he believes. When in reality. he has no clue.
This is not a knock on Phil36 or others, I just wanted to add my two cents and give another option. We should always be open
-
2
- Show all
But where do you find the word "election" in Gal 5? You don't.
And in v.22 it refers to faithfulness, not saving faith.
iow, when a believer fulfills v.16, which is "walking IN the Spirit", meaning being IN fellowship through confession of sins and actively requesting the filling of the Spirit, the "fruit of the Spirit" will be evident.
Otherwise, the fruit of the Spirit won't be. Believers who haven't kept short accounts by not confession their sins (1 Jhn1:9) are out of fellowship and in that state are either grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).
And in v.22 it refers to faithfulness, not saving faith.
iow, when a believer fulfills v.16, which is "walking IN the Spirit", meaning being IN fellowship through confession of sins and actively requesting the filling of the Spirit, the "fruit of the Spirit" will be evident.
Otherwise, the fruit of the Spirit won't be. Believers who haven't kept short accounts by not confession their sins (1 Jhn1:9) are out of fellowship and in that state are either grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).
-
1
- Show all
Election is the invisible cause. Spiritual fruit is the visible effect.
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Matthew 7:16.
Faith itself does not elect as has been stated. It is God who elects not your faith!
Election is the invisible cause. Spiritual fruit is the visible effect.
Look at your verse carefully.
Notice the "TO BE".........in the verse.
This is the END RESULT..................or "to be".
So, to be what? = "HOLY and BLAMELESS"..
Who is that?
Now your verse........look again.........>"chose us IN HIM".............TO BE...............HOLY and Blameless.
Whats the context? Its this......"IN HIM">..........See that part?
That means. IN GOD or IN CHRIST.
So, when you BECOME in him, you are then IN CHRIST, that that is why you become holy and blameless.
Who get to be that one? ????
A.) Jesus said....>"You must be born again"
Notice the "TO BE".........in the verse.
This is the END RESULT..................or "to be".
So, to be what? = "HOLY and BLAMELESS"..
Who is that?
Now your verse........look again.........>"chose us IN HIM".............TO BE...............HOLY and Blameless.
Whats the context? Its this......"IN HIM">..........See that part?
That means. IN GOD or IN CHRIST.
So, when you BECOME in him, you are then IN CHRIST, that that is why you become holy and blameless.
Who get to be that one? ????
A.) Jesus said....>"You must be born again"
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ - 2 Thes 2:13-14.
-
1
- Show all
Yes you were elected to be saved in Christ... That is how one becomes Holy and blameless. When God justifies the sinner he is declared righteous, that is Holy - set apart. God is the one who predestinates, doe's the calling and the justifying etc.. I'll just let scripture speak for itself:
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ - 2 Thes 2:13ff.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. - Romans 8:28-30
It is God who gives the new birth by renewing the heart of man.
Jesus said - Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again (v3) ...... Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit (v6)
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, - Titus 3:5
And that New Birth is only the beginning of the life of the Christian.
-
1
- Show all