predestination vs freewill

[Kidron]

Free will is an illusion. a fabrication of men. .

When you deny faith, you then deny the reason Jesus died on the Cross.
As its by FAITH in Jesus, and by Faith, in what Jesus accomplished on the Cross, that God accepts you or not.
So, what you are teaching, Spits on the Cross and the Grace of God at the same time.
You are this, awelight.....Galatians 1:8

The "illusion"< is that you and God can be in union, according to your church and your theology.
Believe it.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Paul said "called".
Your church/denomination then flips this into..>"foreknew", "pre-destined", ;..........which is hyper calvinism.
See you are adding hyper calvinism to the word "called". and to the word "Foreknew" and "Foreknowledge".
You flip it into...>"predestined", and then it just gets worse, as when you do that you eliminate "faith comes by hearing", which then gets rid of the "the preaching of the Cross" and "Go into all the world and give them the Gospel".

Listen to me.... Jerry.
Calvinism, gets rid of PAUL. Calvinism rips out Romans, Ephesians, Colossians, and The Gospel of the Grace of God, by replacing it with.....>"God chose".
See, the elimination of FREE WILL, .....rips Paul and all his Epistles out of the New Testament.
It denies that Jesus said......."you must be. born again".

CALVINISM, erases PREACHING and THE GOSPLE< and the CROSS, by replacing it all with......>"God choses you or not"..
See that Heresy?
That is Galatians 1:8

You're rewriting the text of Romans 8 for your foolish understanding.

Romans 8:28.
κλητοῖς
klētois called

Romans 8:29.
προέγνω,
proegnō He foreknew

Romans 8:29.
προώρισεν
proōrisen He predestined [to be]

Romans 8:30.
προώρισεν,
proōrisen He predestined

Romans 8:30.
ἐκάλεσεν·
ekalesen He called

 

[OIC1965]

Paul said "called".
Your church/denomination then flips this into..>"foreknew", "pre-destined", ;..........which is hyper calvinism.
See you are adding hyper calvinism to the word "called". and to the word "Foreknew" and "Foreknowledge".
You flip it into...>"predestined", and then it just gets worse, as when you do that you eliminate "faith comes by hearing", which then gets rid of the "the preaching of the Cross" and "Go into all the world and give them the Gospel".

Listen to me.... Jerry.
Calvinism, gets rid of PAUL. Calvinism rips out Romans, Ephesians, Colossians, and The Gospel of the Grace of God, by replacing it with.....>"God chose".
See, .......the elimination of FREE WILL, .....rips Paul and all his Epistles out of the New Testament.
It denies that Jesus said......."you must be. born again".

CALVINISM, erases PREACHING and THE GOSPLE< and the CROSS, by replacing it all with......>"God choses you or not"..
See that Heresy?
That is Galatians 1:8

Called/ (kaleo). Foreknown. (Proginosko.) Predestined. (Proorizo). Three verbs all there in the text.

 

[OIC1965]

You're rewriting the text of Romans 8 for your foolish understanding.

Romans 8:28.
κλητοῖς
klētois called

Romans 8:29.
προέγνω,
proegnō He foreknew

Romans 8:29.
προώρισεν
proōrisen He predestined [to be]

Romans 8:30.
προώρισεν,
proōrisen He predestined

Romans 8:30.
ἐκάλεσεν·
ekalesen He called

We were giving basically the same answer at the same time

 

[Kidron]

Predestination is the engish translation of the Greek word proorizo. .

Unless you can read, write, and speak, koine Greek, fluently......then i would not be able to reply to someone that is trying to fake being a Greek Scholar.
If you can read, write, and speak, Koine Greek, fluently, ...... and can teach manuscript evidence, then, that's a different situation.

 

[Kidron]

Called/ (kaleo). Foreknown. (Proginosko.) Predestined. (Proorizo). Three verbs all there in the text.

As i said, you can't run to the Greek unless you can speak, read, and write, Koine Greek fluently.

So, stick with a bible, and do not try hat tricks with "the greek",, as im familar with manuscript evidence.......

 

[OIC1965]

Unless you can read, write, and speak, koine Greek, fluently......then i would not be able to reply to someone that is trying to fake being a Greek Scholar.
If you can read, write, and speak, Koine Greek, fluently, ...... and can teach manuscript evidence, then, that's a different situation.

I studied Greek in Bible college and I have a Greek New Testament I read pretty regularly. I am not a scholar, but I know enough to use it in exegesis.

 

[OIC1965]

As i said, you can't run to the Greek unless you can speak, read, and write, Koine Greek fluently.

So, stick with a bible, and do not try hat tricks with "the greek",, as im familar with manuscript evidence.......

Translating the Greek New Testament is not the same as speaking and writing conversational modern Greek

 

[Kidron]

What does Hebrews 2:17-18 say about the connection between Jesus’ testing and His High Priestly ministry.

I agree with the rest of your post, which makes me wonder why you said “um, what?”

Tempted vs Tested.

= """""Ummm what."""

Im not insulted by you using those terms as equal value, equal meaning.

The testing is found in the resisting of the temptation, as its not a sin to be tempted.
The sin is the next step,.... its the commitment in the head to dwell within the imagery.
Its this.....its when the temptation, turn into LUST.....in your heart.

Jesus didnt say that we sin when we look upon a woman........ He said that when we LOOK <TO> LUST .......
As that is the point where temptation becomes Lust, because the fantasy that is literally LUST is now in operation in our heart.

 

[OIC1965]

As i said, you can't run to the Greek unless you can speak, read, and write, Koine Greek fluently.

So, stick with a bible, and do not try hat tricks with "the greek",, as im familar with manuscript evidence.......

Please list the VERBS, in English or Greek, that are in Romans 8:29-30

 

[rogerg]

So, all that is pre-destination = AS the eventual conforming INTO the very image of Christ that is what is predetermined to happen to every born again perso

If you don't mind me asking, just so that I understand, your bottom line, when your post is taken to its logical conclusion, is that
our works are necessary for salvation? Can God's mercy, grace and forgiveness exist or be possible without also the presence of
election/predestination? Otherwise, isn't all that remains being the requirement that we must work to please God, and if so, then aren't we still under law, and if under law, won't we all fail to achieve it and therefore all will go to hell?

[Rom 11:5 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

[2Th 2:13 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[Rom 7:4 KJV]
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
[Gal 2:19 KJV]
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

 

[awelight]

There was a definite change in my heart both before (and after) I called on the Name.

No man knows when the Holy Spirit quickens them but they know something has changed.

I remember the night I was at work, the security guard and one of my co-workers often had conversations about the Gospel but I personally could have cared less about the subject. We shared an office together.

But one night, while they were having one of their usual conversations, the security guard asked a Biblical question to my co-worker and I, for the first time in my life, took an interest in the question. I found myself asking: What do I believe about that? I was also asking myself: Why do I care? (I didn't know it then but I would come to realize, that my concern over this question, was evidence of the New Birth. God had changed my disposition. Taken away that ole' heart of stone and given me hearing ears.) I went home, the question still haunting me and would not leave my mind.

I found an old dusty Bible and not knowing where to start, I looked upwards and said aloud - Where you guide me, Lord, to open the Bible, that is where I will start reading. I already acknowledged Jesus Christ as my Lord, while really knowing nothing about Him. I opened the Bible with my eyes closed and put my finger on the open page. (Even though a part of me saw this whole thing of kind of being silly.). I opened my eyes and I was pointing to John chapter 1 - first page. As you might know, it is John who writes about Jesus Christ from the perspective of Him being the God-Man. I started reading and 35 years later, I am still reading and have been in the process of translating the New Testament from the Greek to English.

 

[OIC1965]

Tempted vs Tested.

= """""Ummm what."""

Im not insulted by you using those terms as equal value, equal meaning.

The testing is found in the resisting of the temptation, as its not a sin to be tempted.
The sin is the next step,.... its the commitment in the head to dwell within the imagery.
Its this.....its when the temptation, turn into LUST.....in your heart.

Jesus didnt say that we sin when we look upon a woman........ He said that when we LOOK <TO> LUST .......
As that is the point where temptation becomes Lust, because the fantasy that is literally LUST is now in operation in our heart.

The whole discussion about Jesus’ testing is a little of topic. I am not interested in red herrings. The topic is predestination vs free will, (which btw is a false dichotomy, but ok).

 

[awelight]

When you deny faith, you then deny the reason Jesus died on the Cross.
As its by FAITH in Jesus, and by Faith, in what Jesus accomplished on the Cross, that God accepts you or not.
So, what you are teaching, Spits on the Cross and the Grace of God at the same time.
You are this, awelight.....Galatians 1:8

The "illusion"< is that you and God can be in union, according to your church and your theology.
Believe it.

It is quite obvious that you have come into this thread for the sole purpose of stirring up arguments and have no desire to learn anything. Take your Arminian beliefs and please go away.

 

[Kidron]

Translating the Greek New Testament is not the same as speaking and writing conversational modern Greek

I got kicked off a forum once, for honestly pointing out that there is this big fat lie of pretense that occurs on christian forums.

Its this......
A person buys a $400 Greek Lexicon, + KJV + NIV + ASV.
This study tool.

Then, they read the greek translation of the GREEK in this BOOK, as they can't read Koine Greek, and they then commit the mental error of believing that when reading a translator's translation, they are reading the Greek, themselves.
That is called : self deception.
See that?
This person is reading........not the Greek, but the english translation of the K. GREEK as given by some Translator who was paid $$$$$$ to translate it, and they dont know if His/Her Translation is RIGHT or WRONG, because .........they can't read Koine Greek.
And even if the GRK Translator is a brand name, that is also meaningless, unless you can read K GRk perfectly, and then you can KNOW if this translator is NOT some Heretic who is using this skill to try to teach whatever heresy they want you to believe....and teach.

So, then, they come running to a forum, as a "greek authority"....>"bible corrector", ... trying to prove their faux "greek text" opinion of what is wrong with this bible and that one, .......and trying to win arguments ......by pretending their greek translation that they can't read is proof they are right.

This is very dishonest.
And its shows just how carnal some people are, who are so needy to be throught of as a "teacher" or a "gifted spiritual person", that they use some english translation of Greek, and they say....>"the greek says".......as if they can read Greek.

So, i was pointing this out on a christian forum, same as im doing now for you...... and the Owner of that "christian" forum.....who plays that "fake authority"....game along with some of the carnal members there, freaked out totally, and i was suddenly banned.
See, honestly burns liars, ... and they then react badly, which is often discovered as some serious dishonesty.

 

[OIC1965]

I got kicked off a forum once, for honestly pointing out that there is this big fat lie of pretense that occurs on christian forums.

Its this......
A person buys a $400 Greek Lexicon, + KJV + NIV + ASV.
This study tool.

Then, they read the greek translation of the GREEK in this BOOK, as they can't read Koine Greek, and they then commit the mental error of believing that when reading a translator's translation, they are reading the Greek, themselves.
That is called : self deception.
See that?
This person is reading........not the Greek, but the english translation of the K. GREEK as given by some Translator who was paid $$$$$$ to translate it, and they dont know if His/Her Translation is RIGHT or WRONG, because .........they can't read Koine Greek.
And even if the GRK Translator is a brand name, that is also meaningless, unless you can read K GRk perfectly, and then you can KNOW if this translator is NOT some Heretic who is using this skill to try to teach whatever heresy they want you to believe....and teach.

So, then, they come running to a forum, as a "greek authority"....>"bible corrector", ... trying to prove their faux "greek text" opinion of what is wrong with this bible and that one, .......and trying to win arguments ......by pretending their greek translation that they can't read is proof they are right.

This is very dishonest.
And its shows just how carnal some people are, who are so needy to be throught of as a "teacher" or a "gifted spiritual person", that they use some english translation of Greek, and they say....>"the greek says".......as if they can read Greek.

So, i was pointing this out on a christian forum, same as im doing now for you...... and the Owner of that "christian" forum.....who plays that "fake authority"....game along with some of the carnal members there, freaked out totally, and i was suddenly banned.
See, honestly burns liars, ... and they then react badly, which is often discovered as some serious dishonesty.

Well, I have had some formal training in Greek ( though I do not claim to be a scholar).

 

[awelight]

I got kicked off a forum once, for honestly pointing out that there is this big fat lie of pretense that occurs on christian forums.

Its this......
A person buys a $400 Greek Lexicon, + KJV + NIV + ASV.
This study tool.

Then, they read the greek translation of the GREEK in this BOOK, as they can't read Koine Greek, and they then commit the mental error of believing that when reading a translator's translation, they are reading the Greek, themselves.
That is called : self deception.
See that?
This person is reading........not the Greek, but the english translation of the K. GREEK as given by some Translator who was paid $$$$$$ to translate it, and they dont know if His/Her Translation is RIGHT or WRONG, because .........they can't read Koine Greek.
And even if the GRK Translator is a brand name, that is also meaningless, unless you can read K GRk perfectly, and then you can KNOW if this translator is NOT some Heretic who is using this skill to try to teach whatever heresy they want you to believe....and teach.

So, then, they come running to a forum, as a "greek authority"....>"bible corrector", ... trying to prove their faux "greek text" opinion of what is wrong with this bible and that one, .......and trying to win arguments ......by pretending their greek translation that they can't read is proof they are right.

This is very dishonest.
And its shows just how carnal some people are, who are so needy to be throught of as a "teacher" or a "gifted spiritual person", that they use some english translation of Greek, and they say....>"the greek says".......as if they can read Greek.

So, i was pointing this out on a christian forum, same as im doing now for you...... and the Owner of that "christian" forum.....who plays that "fake authority"....game along with some of the carnal members there, freaked out totally, and i was suddenly banned.
See, honestly burns liars, ... and they then react badly, which is often discovered as some serious dishonesty.

Sorry dude, you ain't talking about me then. I have been translating the Nestle Greek text into English for years. Why - because I don't trust completely - any translation. One thing I can say for sure is - the newer the Translation the further from a true translation it is. Most newer Bibles - since the 1970's. are more commentary that they are translations. Way too many words added in that are not in the Greek text.

 

[OIC1965]

It is quite obvious that you have come into this thread for the sole purpose of stirring up arguments and have no desire to learn anything. Take your Arminian beliefs and please go away.

I am not a Calvinist, but I can assure you, (having studied it very closely) that Calvinists believe in justification by faith. They hold strongly to sola Fidei.

I don’t think you understand Calvinism. I used to think similar to how you think. I realized that I had misrepresented them. I don’t agree on all points with Calvinism, but you are creating a caricature.

 

[awelight]

Well, I have had some formal training in Greek ( though I do not claim to be a scholar).

Don't let anyone make fun of your Greek skills, whether you be beginner or scholar. To know the Koine Greek of Scripture, is to really open up ones horizons about the things of God.

 

[Kidron]

Sorry dude, you ain't talking about me then. I have been translating the Nestle Greek text into English for years. Why - because I don't trust completely - any translation. One thing I can say for sure is - the newer the Translation the further from a true translation it is. Most newer Bibles - since the 1970's. are more commentary that they are translations. Way too many words added in that are not in the Greek text.

Are you translating from the newer Nestle, or from the older one, before it was changed and altered into the new ??