Neither James (the Lord’s brother), Barnabas, Timothy or Silvanus were counted among The Twelve...
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This website says,
https://www.insidescience.org/news/mathematics-jury-size
"One primary reason why today's juries tend to have 12 people is that the Welsh king Morgan of Gla-Morgan, who established jury trials in 725 A.D., decided upon the number, linking the judge and jury to Jesus and his Twelve Apostles. "
https://www.insidescience.org/news/mathematics-jury-size
"One primary reason why today's juries tend to have 12 people is that the Welsh king Morgan of Gla-Morgan, who established jury trials in 725 A.D., decided upon the number, linking the judge and jury to Jesus and his Twelve Apostles. "
I do not know if they divided anyone else's garments this way. Joshua cast lots to determine that Achan had sinned.
We do not know whether other apostles mentioned in the Bible like Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, and Apollos had supernatural experiences of Christ or not.
Where does the Bible teach that? Read about Paul and Barnabas
Acts 13
13 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
Acts 14:14
14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
If that is the express purpose of the passage why isn't that purpose expressed in this passage or anywhere else.
These were not the words Christ spoke at the 'great commission' in Matthew or a similar passage in Mark. Jesus choosing Paul does not mean that Jesus did not choose Matthias or Barnabas.
Saul of Tarsus had this experience after Matthias was numbered with the twelve apostles. If you want to respect Paul's ministry, why not believe him when he called another group, not himself, 'the twelve'. He implicitly acknowledges Matthias.
Please post scripture, not assertion of your theories.
We do not know whether other apostles mentioned in the Bible like Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, and Apollos had supernatural experiences of Christ or not.
Where does the Bible teach that? Read about Paul and Barnabas
Acts 13
13 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
Acts 14:14
14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
If that is the express purpose of the passage why isn't that purpose expressed in this passage or anywhere else.
These were not the words Christ spoke at the 'great commission' in Matthew or a similar passage in Mark. Jesus choosing Paul does not mean that Jesus did not choose Matthias or Barnabas.
Saul of Tarsus had this experience after Matthias was numbered with the twelve apostles. If you want to respect Paul's ministry, why not believe him when he called another group, not himself, 'the twelve'. He implicitly acknowledges Matthias.
Please post scripture, not assertion of your theories.
I think you left out some words so it is hard to know what you are saying. Jesus appeared to a lot of people, even 500 people at once. According to Acts 1, the apostles considered Matthias and Barsabas to be witnesses of the resurrection. According to Paul in I Corinthians 15, Jesus appeared to the twelve before appearing to him. According to the Gospels, Judas went and hanged himself. If the sequence of events is laid out as they occured, then Judas was dead before the resurrected Lord Jesus started appearing in His resurrected form.
Look at Matthew 27,
27 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
I do not follow your reasoning. Paul and Barnabas are called 'apostles' together in Acts. Jesus appointed the 12 before His death. But after He ascended, he gave gifts unto men, including apostles. The twelve were apostles before the ascension. Paul was sent as an apostle after the ascension. So were Barnabas, Silvanus, etc.
Look at Matthew 27,
27 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
I do not follow your reasoning. Paul and Barnabas are called 'apostles' together in Acts. Jesus appointed the 12 before His death. But after He ascended, he gave gifts unto men, including apostles. The twelve were apostles before the ascension. Paul was sent as an apostle after the ascension. So were Barnabas, Silvanus, etc.
If I heard this from an American law professor, I would want an ancient Jewish reference before I would believe it, like Talmud or Mishneh. I would gather that juries came from Norse legal practice, that a Welsh king set the number at 12 and based it on there being 12 apostles, and I might guess a law professor in a lecture might have gotten his facts about the significance of 12 in religious history a bit confused.
“I do not know if they divided anyone else's garments this way. Joshua cast lots to determine that Achan had sinned.”
exactly that’s not a New Testament doctrine the Holy Spirit chiseled in the new my whole point is Peter was told to wait until the holy soirit came , instead he cast lots before that the Holy Spirit didn’t chose Matthias he chose Paul I have already shown that
“We do not know whether other apostles mentioned in the Bible like Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, and Apollos had supernatural experiences of Christ or not. “
They aren’t mentioned as apostles there are only twelve apostles of Jesus Christ Matthias was not elected by him , he was elected by a chance casting of lord before the Holy Spirit was given
Apollos was taught the way of God by others including Priscilla and Aquila , you are confusing teachers , prophets , disciples with apostles there are 12 all chosen by Jesus himself in person
there are 12 Paul is one of them
“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”
Romans 1:1-3 KJV
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle,
and a teacher of the Gentiles.”
2 Timothy 1:10-11
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
Paul is the replacement for Judas
“And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.”
Luke 22:14 KJV
“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.”
Matthew 10:2-4 KJV
the only question is did Peter call
And appoint an apostle to replace Judas without the holy soirit ? Or did jesus himself call all twelve including Paul ? Of course they are the only twelve who will sit here
“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Matthew 19:28 KJV
What I was saying earlier about Paul always arguing that he indeed was one of the apostles chosen by Christ here’s yet another example of it
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 9:1-2 KJV
paul
Includes all his fellow
Ministers Luke barnabus Apollos Priscilla and Aquila with credit on his letters but it does t make someone an apostles because they are a preacher or a prophet or pastor apostles were selected by Christ and those twelve names ll last forever in the kingdom having to foundations built upon thier labors Paul was the twelfth apostle , for my belief anyways I accept all his arguments that he was one
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,”
Colossians 1:1 KJV
“Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,”
1 Corinthians 1:1 KJV
“I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.”
2 Corinthians 12:11-12 KJV
His argument was always that he was equal to the other apostles one of them
“Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
”
Galatians 1:1 KJV
“Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.”
1 Timothy 2:7 KJV
“Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;”
Titus 1:1 KJV
No dofferent from Peter
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,”
1 Peter 1:1 KJV
jesus has 12 apostles
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
exactly that’s not a New Testament doctrine the Holy Spirit chiseled in the new my whole point is Peter was told to wait until the holy soirit came , instead he cast lots before that the Holy Spirit didn’t chose Matthias he chose Paul I have already shown that
“We do not know whether other apostles mentioned in the Bible like Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, and Apollos had supernatural experiences of Christ or not. “
They aren’t mentioned as apostles there are only twelve apostles of Jesus Christ Matthias was not elected by him , he was elected by a chance casting of lord before the Holy Spirit was given
Apollos was taught the way of God by others including Priscilla and Aquila , you are confusing teachers , prophets , disciples with apostles there are 12 all chosen by Jesus himself in person
there are 12 Paul is one of them
“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”
Romans 1:1-3 KJV
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle,
and a teacher of the Gentiles.”
2 Timothy 1:10-11
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
Paul is the replacement for Judas
“And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.”
Luke 22:14 KJV
“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.”
Matthew 10:2-4 KJV
the only question is did Peter call
And appoint an apostle to replace Judas without the holy soirit ? Or did jesus himself call all twelve including Paul ? Of course they are the only twelve who will sit here
“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Matthew 19:28 KJV
What I was saying earlier about Paul always arguing that he indeed was one of the apostles chosen by Christ here’s yet another example of it
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 9:1-2 KJV
paul
Includes all his fellow
Ministers Luke barnabus Apollos Priscilla and Aquila with credit on his letters but it does t make someone an apostles because they are a preacher or a prophet or pastor apostles were selected by Christ and those twelve names ll last forever in the kingdom having to foundations built upon thier labors Paul was the twelfth apostle , for my belief anyways I accept all his arguments that he was one
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,”
Colossians 1:1 KJV
“Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,”
1 Corinthians 1:1 KJV
“I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.”
2 Corinthians 12:11-12 KJV
His argument was always that he was equal to the other apostles one of them
“Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
”Galatians 1:1 KJV
“Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.”1 Timothy 2:7 KJV
“Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;”
Titus 1:1 KJV
No dofferent from Peter
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,”
1 Peter 1:1 KJV
jesus has 12 apostles
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
They were told to wait for the promise. They weren't told "Wait to replace Judas...." Not as far as we know from scripture.
False brother. Please study your Bible on a topic before making declarations. You could also read the thread.
Apollos
I Corinthians 4
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
...
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:6
6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
Paul and Barnabas
Acts 13
1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
Acts 14:14
14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Some consider the 70 to be apostles because of the verb used to describe how they are sent, but the noun 'apostles' is not used in reference to them.
The lot falls in the lap, but the decision is from the Lord.
Do you think Achan was innocent of the crime scripture ascribes to him?
I don't think anyone on the thread is arguing that Paul was not an apostle. According to the Bible, there are more than 12 apostles. Not all apostles are part of the twelve.
This is not the only question. You do not know whether Christ told the eleven to appoint one more apostle so there could be twelve on the day of Pentecost. We do know that scripture says that he opened their minds to understand the scripture. Peter suggested appointing someone to replace Judas after reading scripture. Paul said Jesus appeared to the twelve before appearing to him. Judas was dead. If Paul acknowledged twelve apostles other than himself in the pages of holy scripture, why don't you accept that?
Jesus called the original 12 apostles. He called Paul. Barnabas was sent as an apostle through the Spirit speaking. There are more than 12 apostles.
Paul and his coworkers had a 'measure of rule' among the Gentiles, those he and his co-workers were the first to bring the gospel of Christ. He was a teacher of the Gentiles. Peter discerned that he had grace to minister to the Gentiles as Peter had to minister to the circumcision. So why would Paul's role be to judge the twelve tribes in the age to come? You quoted that he was a teacher to the Gentiles.
Why would that mean he was one of the twelve. He also indicated that he was not one of the twelve.
The twelve apostles names are on the foundations, but there are other apostles besides the twelve. This is very clear in the scripture.
False brother. Please study your Bible on a topic before making declarations. You could also read the thread.
Apollos
I Corinthians 4
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
...
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:6
6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
Paul and Barnabas
Acts 13
1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
Acts 14:14
14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Some consider the 70 to be apostles because of the verb used to describe how they are sent, but the noun 'apostles' is not used in reference to them.
The lot falls in the lap, but the decision is from the Lord.
Do you think Achan was innocent of the crime scripture ascribes to him?
I don't think anyone on the thread is arguing that Paul was not an apostle. According to the Bible, there are more than 12 apostles. Not all apostles are part of the twelve.
This is not the only question. You do not know whether Christ told the eleven to appoint one more apostle so there could be twelve on the day of Pentecost. We do know that scripture says that he opened their minds to understand the scripture. Peter suggested appointing someone to replace Judas after reading scripture. Paul said Jesus appeared to the twelve before appearing to him. Judas was dead. If Paul acknowledged twelve apostles other than himself in the pages of holy scripture, why don't you accept that?
Jesus called the original 12 apostles. He called Paul. Barnabas was sent as an apostle through the Spirit speaking. There are more than 12 apostles.
Paul and his coworkers had a 'measure of rule' among the Gentiles, those he and his co-workers were the first to bring the gospel of Christ. He was a teacher of the Gentiles. Peter discerned that he had grace to minister to the Gentiles as Peter had to minister to the circumcision. So why would Paul's role be to judge the twelve tribes in the age to come? You quoted that he was a teacher to the Gentiles.
Why would that mean he was one of the twelve. He also indicated that he was not one of the twelve.
The twelve apostles names are on the foundations, but there are other apostles besides the twelve. This is very clear in the scripture.
None of this names any other apostle there were hundreds of people spreading Gods word Paul was the apostle the others are never named on one hand your telling me not to make any assumptions yet look what you’ve done
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
...
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.”
That doesn’t call Apollos an apostle
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
that doesn’t call any of them apostles
1 Thessalonians 2:6
6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
above this doesn’t refer to any other apostles he’s referring to himself and the other eleven .
this verse however is curious to me out of everything you posted this one I will look into
“Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,”
Acts 14:14 KJV
that’s the only verse of all you have there to suggest that barnabus is an apostle the others don’t support apostleshio for anyone else but I do acknowledge the above verse is curious and I’ll check into the chapter and see what eas happening
Your absolutely wrong about casting lord everything in the New Testament is accomplished by Jesus Christ his decision and calling casting lots is not part of the kingdom .
peter and all the church is built upon receiving the Holy Spirit he chose the outlets and Paul was the only other man ever to be chosen with the other eleven by Christ himself only those twelve casting lots is what separates Matthias out . Paul on the other hand receive the exact same calling and appointment by Jesus in person.
I’ll stay with my view there , but I’m curious about barnabus now.
this statement I agree with some consider a lot of things but the Bible doesn’t say it the only verse in your reply I personally find valid is the one I acknowledged
but nothing you posted otherwise support any other number of apostles other than the 12 Jesus chose thy at what makes an apostle you aren’t an apostle unless you are one of the twelve
“ The twelve “ is a shortening of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ “
there’s a tangible reason there’s only twelve but I can see it would just ignite forth we disagreement some won’t go there
but any how I’m going to look into the one verse that sunk in as some support form your argument or more than 12
the rest I look at as taking ones own interpretation and making it mean what’s not there
So for instance this guy can’t be an apostle , because his doctrine wasn’t given by revelation like the apostles it came from the witnesses a husband and wife teaching team whom often helped and travelled with the apostle Paul as well.
“And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.”
Acts 18:24-26, 28 KJV
I think that you should consider my points and the scriptures I left for you and this point especially 12 men were chosen by Christ himself appearing to them to witness the gospel to jew and gentile to the ends of the world.
Paul met others like Apollos along the way Luke also , Priscilla and Aquila Timothy barnabus ect who were already preaching Gods word beforehand and they helped one another understand it better as you see happened with Apollos
apostles of Christ are the twelve he chose himself is my argument.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
...
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.”
That doesn’t call Apollos an apostle
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
that doesn’t call any of them apostles
1 Thessalonians 2:6
6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
above this doesn’t refer to any other apostles he’s referring to himself and the other eleven .
this verse however is curious to me out of everything you posted this one I will look into
“Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,”
Acts 14:14 KJV
that’s the only verse of all you have there to suggest that barnabus is an apostle the others don’t support apostleshio for anyone else but I do acknowledge the above verse is curious and I’ll check into the chapter and see what eas happening
Your absolutely wrong about casting lord everything in the New Testament is accomplished by Jesus Christ his decision and calling casting lots is not part of the kingdom .
peter and all the church is built upon receiving the Holy Spirit he chose the outlets and Paul was the only other man ever to be chosen with the other eleven by Christ himself only those twelve casting lots is what separates Matthias out . Paul on the other hand receive the exact same calling and appointment by Jesus in person.
I’ll stay with my view there , but I’m curious about barnabus now.
this statement I agree with some consider a lot of things but the Bible doesn’t say it the only verse in your reply I personally find valid is the one I acknowledged
but nothing you posted otherwise support any other number of apostles other than the 12 Jesus chose thy at what makes an apostle you aren’t an apostle unless you are one of the twelve
“ The twelve “ is a shortening of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ “
there’s a tangible reason there’s only twelve but I can see it would just ignite forth we disagreement some won’t go there
but any how I’m going to look into the one verse that sunk in as some support form your argument or more than 12
the rest I look at as taking ones own interpretation and making it mean what’s not there
So for instance this guy can’t be an apostle , because his doctrine wasn’t given by revelation like the apostles it came from the witnesses a husband and wife teaching team whom often helped and travelled with the apostle Paul as well.
“And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.”
Acts 18:24-26, 28 KJV
I think that you should consider my points and the scriptures I left for you and this point especially 12 men were chosen by Christ himself appearing to them to witness the gospel to jew and gentile to the ends of the world.
Paul met others like Apollos along the way Luke also , Priscilla and Aquila Timothy barnabus ect who were already preaching Gods word beforehand and they helped one another understand it better as you see happened with Apollos
apostles of Christ are the twelve he chose himself is my argument.
This is correct, Matthias was add to the eleven. And was acceptet among them.
But, and this is my assumption, he was choosen by men. Even when God gave his yes to Him. Paul was choosen by God himself. As the first 11 also was. Thats makes for me the difference. Thats why I would count him as the 12th apostle. And again, finaly we will see in heaven.
About Matthias, which scripture please?
But, and this is my assumption, he was choosen by men. Even when God gave his yes to Him. Paul was choosen by God himself. As the first 11 also was. Thats makes for me the difference. Thats why I would count him as the 12th apostle. And again, finaly we will see in heaven.
About Matthias, which scripture please?
Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing there of is of the LORD.
Acts 1:26
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Acts 1:26
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
I don't understand why there persistence argument ??? It is very clear what God has approved !!!
so I was looking into barnabus and I think this seems Interesting and very informative
“And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.”
Acts 4:36-37 KJV
Clearly he is a member of the church early on but not an apostle. He seems important to the scripture because his name is interpreted as it is , rare for the writer to do this regarding anyone’s name. “Son of consolation “ quite an interpretation of his name given by the apostles
So the apostles named Joses , barnabus “ the son of consolation “
But we understand he and Paul ministered together often until thy see split over mark yet this point seems to occur before he is later the one time , refered to as an apostle by Luke in acts 14
“Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.”
Acts 13:1-4
I think two things are true , barnabus is. Ot one of the twelve apostles of Christ and Paul is the twelfth apostle of Jesus Christ and there are only twelve men Jesus chose himself in person , that’s why we have Paul’s account and calling recorded to show us he’s the same as the other 11
and it’s why we see Matthias chosen by casting lots before the holy spirit was given
I don’t think scripture like this
“Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Thessalonians 1:1 KJV
supports Timothy and Silvanus being named apostles .
Apollos that reference you used goes more like this
“Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.”
1 Corinthians 4:1-6
he wasn’t transferring the title apostle to Apollos at all but the lesson about not thinking of men too highly when they are ministering to you.
Then later in the chapter he’s including himself with the twelve apostles Apollos was definately a righteous man and good minister of Gods word companion of Paul who Paul took as an equal in title but the at doesn’t say he’s an apostle he had been settling this situation for two pages and was using himself and Apollos as examples to settle the arguments about how different anointed ministers and thier titles don’t matter if they are preaching the word of Christ
“For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.
But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
1 Corinthians 3:3-6, 10-
there were apostles appointed to set forth the scripture of the New Testament but when the apostle John ended his time on earth notice there was no more scripture . Its because the apostles had done thoer work in the earth and the church was planted and growing
the Mormon church believes that God constantly replaces apostles when one does another comes forth to keep the number at 12 ,
I personally believe there are only the twelve but my argument is only my own thinking and perception of what is there
barnabus is An important figure there are many in scripture Timothy , Aquila , mark , Apollos ect but I don’t think he’s actually an apostle like Paul or Peter or John
“And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.”
Acts 4:36-37 KJV
Clearly he is a member of the church early on but not an apostle. He seems important to the scripture because his name is interpreted as it is , rare for the writer to do this regarding anyone’s name. “Son of consolation “ quite an interpretation of his name given by the apostles
So the apostles named Joses , barnabus “ the son of consolation “
But we understand he and Paul ministered together often until thy see split over mark yet this point seems to occur before he is later the one time , refered to as an apostle by Luke in acts 14
“Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.”
Acts 13:1-4
I think two things are true , barnabus is. Ot one of the twelve apostles of Christ and Paul is the twelfth apostle of Jesus Christ and there are only twelve men Jesus chose himself in person , that’s why we have Paul’s account and calling recorded to show us he’s the same as the other 11
and it’s why we see Matthias chosen by casting lots before the holy spirit was given
I don’t think scripture like this
“Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Thessalonians 1:1 KJV
supports Timothy and Silvanus being named apostles .
Apollos that reference you used goes more like this
“Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.”
1 Corinthians 4:1-6
he wasn’t transferring the title apostle to Apollos at all but the lesson about not thinking of men too highly when they are ministering to you.
Then later in the chapter he’s including himself with the twelve apostles Apollos was definately a righteous man and good minister of Gods word companion of Paul who Paul took as an equal in title but the at doesn’t say he’s an apostle he had been settling this situation for two pages and was using himself and Apollos as examples to settle the arguments about how different anointed ministers and thier titles don’t matter if they are preaching the word of Christ
“For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.
But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
1 Corinthians 3:3-6, 10-
there were apostles appointed to set forth the scripture of the New Testament but when the apostle John ended his time on earth notice there was no more scripture . Its because the apostles had done thoer work in the earth and the church was planted and growing
the Mormon church believes that God constantly replaces apostles when one does another comes forth to keep the number at 12 ,
I personally believe there are only the twelve but my argument is only my own thinking and perception of what is there
barnabus is An important figure there are many in scripture Timothy , Aquila , mark , Apollos ect but I don’t think he’s actually an apostle like Paul or Peter or John
A lot of things are clear if we only allow two scriptures Jesus never told them to cast lots , he told them to wait for the Holy Spirit to Come and anoint them Peter was never told by Jesus to select Matthias nor did he have the Holy Spirit
of Jesus makes a choice he doesn’t set two men up and cast lots to decide he has already determined their destiny beforehand meh simply appears and calls them .
casting a lots shouldn’t be an example for Any Christian lol we don’t pray and then cast lots to receive the answer hahaha sorry that’s ticklish lol
we should rather hear the gospel and receive the Holy Spirit and come to know and hear the lords word
there are exactly 12 men in scripture minis Judas who has this experience
The eleven originals
“Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:14-16
and Paul
“And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:”
Acts 9:3, 5-6, 15
the whole world in other words all people same commission from the same lord but no other man ever had that happen but the eleven and Paul
Matthias is the only one among them chosen as apostle by setting two men and then casting lots to decide 🤠
of Jesus makes a choice he doesn’t set two men up and cast lots to decide he has already determined their destiny beforehand meh simply appears and calls them .
casting a lots shouldn’t be an example for Any Christian lol we don’t pray and then cast lots to receive the answer hahaha sorry that’s ticklish lol
we should rather hear the gospel and receive the Holy Spirit and come to know and hear the lords word
there are exactly 12 men in scripture minis Judas who has this experience
The eleven originals
“Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:14-16
and Paul
“And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:”
Acts 9:3, 5-6, 15
the whole world in other words all people same commission from the same lord but no other man ever had that happen but the eleven and Paul
Matthias is the only one among them chosen as apostle by setting two men and then casting lots to decide 🤠