Is Obedience Necessary for Salvation?
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S
did you note the difference between salvation and sanctification? you appear to be describing sanctification and understanding it as salvation
when a person accepts Christ, they are born again...as Jesus described..meaning born of the Spirit of God by the blood of Christ. How we live after that, is called santificatioin. In other words, you ARE ALREADY saved if your faith is in Christ. You are not partly saved, you are not going to be saved...you ARE saved now.
The Bible says we can know if we are saved or not.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Romans 8:1
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
These are only a few verses that tell us we can know here and now that we ARE saved. it is a done deal...our salvation is already accomplished
when a person accepts Christ, they are born again...as Jesus described..meaning born of the Spirit of God by the blood of Christ. How we live after that, is called santificatioin. In other words, you ARE ALREADY saved if your faith is in Christ. You are not partly saved, you are not going to be saved...you ARE saved now.
The Bible says we can know if we are saved or not.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Romans 8:1
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
These are only a few verses that tell us we can know here and now that we ARE saved. it is a done deal...our salvation is already accomplished
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1 Corinthians 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
This is the verse that come to mind when I gave the example. I mentioned so as to remind that we must always strive to serve while being in the process of being saved. Now, listen. The verse
Alright, using that logic and going by, for example, Romans 10:9-10, if one were to sin later on in life, after they have already believed in their heart that God raised Christ from the dead and confessed in righteousness with their mouth, would they still be saved or need to be re-saved by way of repentance and asking for forgiveness?
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
This is the verse that come to mind when I gave the example. I mentioned so as to remind that we must always strive to serve while being in the process of being saved. Now, listen. The verse
Alright, using that logic and going by, for example, Romans 10:9-10, if one were to sin later on in life, after they have already believed in their heart that God raised Christ from the dead and confessed in righteousness with their mouth, would they still be saved or need to be re-saved by way of repentance and asking for forgiveness?
You keep setting up strawmen. Please stick to what I'm actually arguing.
In Matthew 5:19 He said he will call those who teach others to obey the commandments "great" and call those who break the commandments "least" in his kingdom. Do you agree or not?
Ad hominem.
Who even goes there!? Are you projecting your thoughts onto me??? Is that what you'd actually like to do to me??
In Matthew 5:19 He said he will call those who teach others to obey the commandments "great" and call those who break the commandments "least" in his kingdom. Do you agree or not?
Ad hominem.
Who even goes there!? Are you projecting your thoughts onto me??? Is that what you'd actually like to do to me??
S
I did not present logic. did you read the verses? these are not from some website...they are straight from the Bible and plainly state a person can KNOW they are saved. while I do like a logical approach to many things, the love of God towards fallen mankind is not logical. it is beyond our understanding and yet He did send His only Son to die for our sins so that we may live and not die. we are not finite beings...we have a soul and a spirit and it is that spirit that God desires to come back into fellowship with Him
the Bible is plain that we will never be sinless on this earth. So, in regards to your question above, we are saved once. We do not become unsaved if we sin, rather the Apostle John states this:
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. I John 2:1
we will continue our sin battle throughout our lives on this earth, but as we are sanctified...that is learn to walk after the Holy Spirit and in His power, we progress and desire to please God and not our flesh. this does not occur immediately. this, is called sanctification...which, again, you appear to be calling salvation
we are not saved over and over again, just like Jesus does not have to die over and over again.
the Bible is plain that we will never be sinless on this earth. So, in regards to your question above, we are saved once. We do not become unsaved if we sin, rather the Apostle John states this:
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. I John 2:1
we will continue our sin battle throughout our lives on this earth, but as we are sanctified...that is learn to walk after the Holy Spirit and in His power, we progress and desire to please God and not our flesh. this does not occur immediately. this, is called sanctification...which, again, you appear to be calling salvation
we are not saved over and over again, just like Jesus does not have to die over and over again.
...huh? One can't love God but be an unbeliever. That's oxymoronicalnessism.
Keeping commandments without faith (in the work of Messiah) is the futile effort.
No...This sounds correct but it isn't and that's why I'm pushing back. The law shows us what SIN is. That's its purpose. The law doesn't show us that we are unrighteous. A person is weighted by the law whether in their righteousness (imputed by faith in Messiah) or unrighteousness. A believer in Messiah isn't unrighteous anymore, they're justified and made clean. Afterwards they (we) are expected to live righteously (in obedience to the law).
......lol WHAT!?
Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
...And He doesn't say anything about hell to these people. They just can't enter into the kingdom. This will be during the millennium reign on earth. The people won't be allowed into the kingdom of light and so will be crushed, sobbing because they thought they were doing all these great things for Messiah...but they must remain in their darkness because they were lawbreakers.
lol that specific huh? These people do specifically that? Go to forums and talk about commandments?
lol can't even answer an innocent question. Yes. Yes, my 1st language is English. I asked because it appeared as if you weren't comprehending the difference between "all", "not all", "none" and "some". For example:
GGgGGgg
^^^All of the "g"s are green. But not all "g"s are the same. Some are bold. Some are capitalized.
Likewise, if I say, "not all sins are willful. Some are of ignorance. Some are mistakes of weakness"...that's not me saying all sins are accidents. It's basic English. So I was asking whether English is your 1st language so as to know how to continue with you because we have many international members here and they can genuinely not be as strong in English.
Keeping commandments without faith (in the work of Messiah) is the futile effort.
No...This sounds correct but it isn't and that's why I'm pushing back. The law shows us what SIN is. That's its purpose. The law doesn't show us that we are unrighteous. A person is weighted by the law whether in their righteousness (imputed by faith in Messiah) or unrighteousness. A believer in Messiah isn't unrighteous anymore, they're justified and made clean. Afterwards they (we) are expected to live righteously (in obedience to the law).
......lol WHAT!?
Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
...And He doesn't say anything about hell to these people. They just can't enter into the kingdom. This will be during the millennium reign on earth. The people won't be allowed into the kingdom of light and so will be crushed, sobbing because they thought they were doing all these great things for Messiah...but they must remain in their darkness because they were lawbreakers.
lol that specific huh? These people do specifically that? Go to forums and talk about commandments?
lol can't even answer an innocent question. Yes. Yes, my 1st language is English. I asked because it appeared as if you weren't comprehending the difference between "all", "not all", "none" and "some". For example:
GGgGGgg
^^^All of the "g"s are green. But not all "g"s are the same. Some are bold. Some are capitalized.
Likewise, if I say, "not all sins are willful. Some are of ignorance. Some are mistakes of weakness"...that's not me saying all sins are accidents. It's basic English. So I was asking whether English is your 1st language so as to know how to continue with you because we have many international members here and they can genuinely not be as strong in English.
E
You keep setting up strawmen. Please stick to what I'm actually arguing.
In Matthew 5:19 He said he will call those who teach others to obey the commandments "great" and call those who break the commandments "least" in his kingdom. Do you agree or not?
Ad hominem.
Who even goes there!? Are you projecting your thoughts onto me??? Is that what you'd actually like to do to me??
In Matthew 5:19 He said he will call those who teach others to obey the commandments "great" and call those who break the commandments "least" in his kingdom. Do you agree or not?
Ad hominem.
Who even goes there!? Are you projecting your thoughts onto me??? Is that what you'd actually like to do to me??
I have answered your questions. As always you twist My words
again we are done
Should I have used the word "reasoning", would that have been more suitable?
Yes, I did read the verses. But please tell me this so I have a better understand here, if a believer is permanently saved from God's judgement, why repent and ask to be forgiven?
Isn't that what salvation is, to be spared God's judgement and the punishment for sin?
Yes, I did read the verses. But please tell me this so I have a better understand here, if a believer is permanently saved from God's judgement, why repent and ask to be forgiven?
Isn't that what salvation is, to be spared God's judgement and the punishment for sin?
Friend all the verse I use is His verse not mine
Born again doesn’t mean you can do anything and not convicted
I am from Muslim country one time Muslim accused me being in the wrong religion they say your religion/Christian encourage crime as long as you believe that Jesus God all your sin forgiven in that case why don’t you robe the bank
I say yes if you believe His teaching and repent you are forgiven
Yes believe mean forgiven but believe mean believe His teaching not rob the bank or deny Hom
Born again doesn’t mean you can do anything and not convicted
I am from Muslim country one time Muslim accused me being in the wrong religion they say your religion/Christian encourage crime as long as you believe that Jesus God all your sin forgiven in that case why don’t you robe the bank
I say yes if you believe His teaching and repent you are forgiven
Yes believe mean forgiven but believe mean believe His teaching not rob the bank or deny Hom
S
those verses are not my reasoning either. there is no one on this earth who has never sinned.
I really do not understand what you are asking here...
salvation is by God's plan only through belief in Christ. I don't know how familiar with the Bible you are, but Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament, explains his own battle with sin. When we are born again, this does not mean we become without sin...hence what John says about that. he says if anyone says they are without sin, they are a liar.
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write these things so that oura joy may be complete.
5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7Butb if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.
I John 1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.
I John 2
Salvation is not about being perfect. It is about believing in Christ; He is the only one who never sinned. The Bible explains that we are "IN" Christ, meaning that God sees us as He sees His own Son...without sin, not in regards to our own sinlessness because we are not without sin, but as though we had never sinned.
Sin is what spoils our relationship with God. So John says that if we do sin, Jesus is our 'Advocate', like a lawyer, pleading our 'case' before God and declaring us 'innocent' because we accept by faith that Jesus died for us, in our place, even though he was without sin.
(see verse 1 above, I John)
I really do not understand what you are asking here...
salvation is by God's plan only through belief in Christ. I don't know how familiar with the Bible you are, but Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament, explains his own battle with sin. When we are born again, this does not mean we become without sin...hence what John says about that. he says if anyone says they are without sin, they are a liar.
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write these things so that oura joy may be complete.
5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7Butb if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.
I John 1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.
I John 2
Salvation is not about being perfect. It is about believing in Christ; He is the only one who never sinned. The Bible explains that we are "IN" Christ, meaning that God sees us as He sees His own Son...without sin, not in regards to our own sinlessness because we are not without sin, but as though we had never sinned.
Sin is what spoils our relationship with God. So John says that if we do sin, Jesus is our 'Advocate', like a lawyer, pleading our 'case' before God and declaring us 'innocent' because we accept by faith that Jesus died for us, in our place, even though he was without sin.
(see verse 1 above, I John)
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To the first question; as a general matter, yes. Does following them achieve salvation? No. and again, no. Faith in Messiah achieves salvation (i.e cleansing/justification). Do "gentiles" specifically need to follow dietary laws? This is probably the actual question and its answer is "if it's genuinely on your heart to do, then yes".
----
Ok. We start with a base truth...
In Romans 2:12 Paul says all people will be judged by the Almighty's law:
1) Those who sin outside the law = Evil people. destroyed; done; finito.
2) Those who sin inside the law (note: this is not the same phrase as "under the law") = are judged by the law. Jew & Gentile.
...Next, we expand this truth even deeper for the gentile...
In Romans 2:14-15 Paul says this concerning those inside the law:
1) Doers of the Law are right, not just hearers of it.
2) Gentiles believers in Messiah (who weren't given the law) will only be judged by the portion of Almighty's law that resides in their hearts. Such will become the gentile believer's whole law that they're weighed by.
Their conscience is a witness to which laws are in the gentile's heart. In other words, do they feel remorse or guilt by not obeying a specific law? If so, then it's one of the laws they are weighed by. Are they even aware of a law? Have they been properly taught? If not, then they won't be weighed by it because it's not in their heart.
----
Now the way the process was supposed to go - before evil men crept in and change the truth - was after one's faith in Messiah cleaned a gentile they were to be taught the law every sabbath day. As Acts 15:20 explains, the only things they were initially responsible for were avoiding sexual immorality, idols, food that's strangled and food that still has blood (dietary). And they would be taught the rest every sabbath.
[Side note: The blood restriction was given before the law as far back as Noah and the covenant of peace that the Almighty made with all living things, in Genesis 9:1-11. So this restriction applied to all mankind.]
Our love isn't perfect upon conversion. We are still worldly as a new babe in Christ (1 Corinthians 3:1-3), coming from all walks of pagan life. This is why Paul in Romans 14 teaches not to judge a weaker brethen on certain things like foods or drinks or days...because they're just not there yet and doing so would cause them to struggle.
^ This is the mercy and patience of God that is mean to lead to repentance.
Through daily study of the scriptures - which train us in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16-17) - and the guidance of the Holy Spirit as we try & fail & improve & restart, our love for Almighty and our neighbor grows and grows; our grace grows more and more, until eventually maybe we say in our heart "I want to do more for God. I want to be even more pleasing to Him." and then we take on something more mature (Hebrew 5:11-14). And this goes on day by day until we are perfectly like Messiah in character and stature (Ephesians 4), who knew no sin and was in all ways pleasing to the Father.
[Important side note: this process does NOT include the cleansing/justifying tasks & rituals that prefigured Messiah's work. WE STAY AWAY FROM THOSE NOW!!]
----
Today's current situation
Intrigue! Enemies of the faith! The kingdom taken by force! Men crept in unawares!
Who can be trusted? With so many denominations and doctrines, what is the truth? One can't know the truth unless they're taught (Romans 10). So again, a believer is to obey the laws in their heart. If you know what's right but choose against it, that is sin. But the laws we're not sure about we're not held responsible for. All good!
However, I push back against the notion that the law is the problem, was done away, and should be avoided and that there should be no attempt by the believer in Messiah whatsoever at obeying (incorrectly citing Galatians to support this notion). This is going in the opposite direction toward lawlessness and is not what's explained by Paul or any other apostle.
----
Water Baptism
Faith is expressed through actions not mental ascent. Recall prophets like Elisha who didn't think he received a double portion of Elijah's spirit, but when he smote the waters the Jordan parted. There was no power in the cloak. Recall he who took a stick and purified the bitter waters. There was no power in the stick. The power was in his faith, expressed through his actions.
The faith behind baptism is "I am dying to (repenting of) my life. I am resurrecting to a new life." This is a statement of faith because - clearly - we're still walking and talking and not actually dead. There is no power in the water. But the act of immersion is the expression of the faith that proves the faith is true. And so, "amen. it is true" as reckoned by the Almighty.
To redirect this back to my point regarding obedience; we have faith that Messiah has cleansed us from our sin, given us the Holy Spirit, and granted us grace. We can't see this. No one can see this. So what makes it "amen"? What makes it "true"? The answer is, our acts of obedience. There is no power in the acts of obedience. But the acts express our faith that proves everything Messiah did and does for us is true. That we are saved.
"So be it."
----
Ok. We start with a base truth...
In Romans 2:12 Paul says all people will be judged by the Almighty's law:
1) Those who sin outside the law = Evil people. destroyed; done; finito.
2) Those who sin inside the law (note: this is not the same phrase as "under the law") = are judged by the law. Jew & Gentile.
...Next, we expand this truth even deeper for the gentile...
In Romans 2:14-15 Paul says this concerning those inside the law:
1) Doers of the Law are right, not just hearers of it.
2) Gentiles believers in Messiah (who weren't given the law) will only be judged by the portion of Almighty's law that resides in their hearts. Such will become the gentile believer's whole law that they're weighed by.
Their conscience is a witness to which laws are in the gentile's heart. In other words, do they feel remorse or guilt by not obeying a specific law? If so, then it's one of the laws they are weighed by. Are they even aware of a law? Have they been properly taught? If not, then they won't be weighed by it because it's not in their heart.
----
Now the way the process was supposed to go - before evil men crept in and change the truth - was after one's faith in Messiah cleaned a gentile they were to be taught the law every sabbath day. As Acts 15:20 explains, the only things they were initially responsible for were avoiding sexual immorality, idols, food that's strangled and food that still has blood (dietary). And they would be taught the rest every sabbath.
[Side note: The blood restriction was given before the law as far back as Noah and the covenant of peace that the Almighty made with all living things, in Genesis 9:1-11. So this restriction applied to all mankind.]
Our love isn't perfect upon conversion. We are still worldly as a new babe in Christ (1 Corinthians 3:1-3), coming from all walks of pagan life. This is why Paul in Romans 14 teaches not to judge a weaker brethen on certain things like foods or drinks or days...because they're just not there yet and doing so would cause them to struggle.
^ This is the mercy and patience of God that is mean to lead to repentance.
Through daily study of the scriptures - which train us in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16-17) - and the guidance of the Holy Spirit as we try & fail & improve & restart, our love for Almighty and our neighbor grows and grows; our grace grows more and more, until eventually maybe we say in our heart "I want to do more for God. I want to be even more pleasing to Him." and then we take on something more mature (Hebrew 5:11-14). And this goes on day by day until we are perfectly like Messiah in character and stature (Ephesians 4), who knew no sin and was in all ways pleasing to the Father.
[Important side note: this process does NOT include the cleansing/justifying tasks & rituals that prefigured Messiah's work. WE STAY AWAY FROM THOSE NOW!!]
----
Today's current situation
Intrigue! Enemies of the faith! The kingdom taken by force! Men crept in unawares!
Who can be trusted? With so many denominations and doctrines, what is the truth? One can't know the truth unless they're taught (Romans 10). So again, a believer is to obey the laws in their heart. If you know what's right but choose against it, that is sin. But the laws we're not sure about we're not held responsible for. All good!
However, I push back against the notion that the law is the problem, was done away, and should be avoided and that there should be no attempt by the believer in Messiah whatsoever at obeying (incorrectly citing Galatians to support this notion). This is going in the opposite direction toward lawlessness and is not what's explained by Paul or any other apostle.
----
Water Baptism
Faith is expressed through actions not mental ascent. Recall prophets like Elisha who didn't think he received a double portion of Elijah's spirit, but when he smote the waters the Jordan parted. There was no power in the cloak. Recall he who took a stick and purified the bitter waters. There was no power in the stick. The power was in his faith, expressed through his actions.
The faith behind baptism is "I am dying to (repenting of) my life. I am resurrecting to a new life." This is a statement of faith because - clearly - we're still walking and talking and not actually dead. There is no power in the water. But the act of immersion is the expression of the faith that proves the faith is true. And so, "amen. it is true" as reckoned by the Almighty.
To redirect this back to my point regarding obedience; we have faith that Messiah has cleansed us from our sin, given us the Holy Spirit, and granted us grace. We can't see this. No one can see this. So what makes it "amen"? What makes it "true"? The answer is, our acts of obedience. There is no power in the acts of obedience. But the acts express our faith that proves everything Messiah did and does for us is true. That we are saved.
"So be it."
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I would have never guessed that, considering how you write disjointed responses, that generally have no connection to what ive stated.
Also, i see that you are not willing to correct your false self insinuation, that all your sins are accidents and mistakes.
Let me assure you that most of them are willful .
Rest assured.
Also, i see that you are not willing to correct your false self insinuation, that all your sins are accidents and mistakes.
Let me assure you that most of them are willful .
Rest assured.
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