Is Obedience Necessary for Salvation?
- Thread starter ChosenbyHim
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Not every verse in the NT is pointed at a born again person.
Many are directed at Christ Rejectors, such as Hebrews 10.
"To rightly divide the word" is to make certain that you understand the spiritual reality of the verse, and the context, and who the verse is actually talking to.
So, when a person like you, suggests that every verse is talking to a Christian, then you are wrongly dividing the word and that is where your confusion exists, principally.
Also, for you to imply that all your sins are mistakes and accidents, is not honest.
You should always be honest if you are going to present yourself as a Christian.
-
1
- Show all
Of course.
Maybe you should get yourself a New Testament, and read it.
Find these verses, in ACTS 28
Paul talking to Christ rejecting Hebrews.....
Notice.... verse 28, as Paul is leaving the Hebrews and going to the = Gentiles.
-------------------------------
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Maybe you should get yourself a New Testament, and read it.
Find these verses, in ACTS 28
Paul talking to Christ rejecting Hebrews.....
Notice.... verse 28, as Paul is leaving the Hebrews and going to the = Gentiles.
-------------------------------
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
-
1
- Show all
E
Actually I do.
You just do not know what a true believer is
Who said I do not? And if I fail to keep the sabbath this week. Does that make me any more of a sinner than you? Of course not.
Ah. Typical legalistic response.
are you sinless? If not. Your question is invalid. And again Who said I do not keep the sabaath? Do you? I do not mean go to church on saterday. thats not what the sabbath is.. Do you rest completely from all work.. (You do realise going to church is WORK do you not)
I did explain the passage, It is not a passage that tells how to be saved. It is an explanation of how Gods people act vs how those who are not Gods people act.
You want to twist it to earning your salvation or losing your salvation. thats not what the passage is about.
So...many verses...in the NT letters...in the bible...are directed at Christ Rejectors...?? Not all of it is applicable to the Christian? So then Christians aren't part of the Melchisedec priesthood? Because that was the part of Hebrews I was referencing.
I asked you a question about the book of Hebrews. I never suggested every verse is talking to anyone.
^^^Projection, and REALLY dishonest.
I don't believe you don't understand what I wrote. So that means you're literally, intentionally, bearing false witness on me, which would definitely make it a willful sin. But good thing that warning in Hebrews doesn't apply to you as a Christian right? Nothing you do is sin anymore, right?
----
For anyone reading these exchanges, please take the time to actually read for yourselves entire accounts and passages in their full context. It doesn't take long. Never take anyone's word for it with something as important as your faith in these doctrines in question.
----
Paul wasn't talking to "Christ-rejecting" Hebrews. He was talking to Hebrews who were living in Rome. Paul actually called THEM to him after he arrived there with other prisoners. These Hebrews hadn't heard the gospel of Christ yet.
Acts 28:16-17
16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
...Paul then began EXPLAINING to these Hebrews what happened between him and the Hebrews in Jerusalem...
Acts 28:18-20
18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...These Hebrews then told him they weren't aware of what went on in Jerusalem with Paul but asked to know what all the commotion was about concerning this "new sect" of followers of God...
Acts 28:21-22
21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
...They set a date and many Hebrews gathered together to hear Paul at his new home, so he explained the gospel using the law and the prophetic books...but not everyone believed the gospel of Christ. Some did and some didn't. It was mixed.
Acts 28:23-24
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
...They all then began leaving discussing it amongst each other and couldn't come to a consensus. And while they were leaving, Paul added the words of Isaiah that said his people would not hear the message so salvation is sent to the Gentiles. This made them discuss it among themselves even more...
Acts 28:25-29
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
Let's let the scriptures reveal what actually happened. At no point did Paul address anything against the law that would cause the Hebrews to be angry with him. Each time other Hebrews grew angry with him in other areas was when people LIED about him speaking against the law. Note that the account says these were LIES.
I asked you a question about the book of Hebrews. I never suggested every verse is talking to anyone.
^^^Projection, and REALLY dishonest.
I don't believe you don't understand what I wrote. So that means you're literally, intentionally, bearing false witness on me, which would definitely make it a willful sin. But good thing that warning in Hebrews doesn't apply to you as a Christian right? Nothing you do is sin anymore, right?
----
For anyone reading these exchanges, please take the time to actually read for yourselves entire accounts and passages in their full context. It doesn't take long. Never take anyone's word for it with something as important as your faith in these doctrines in question.
----
Paul wasn't talking to "Christ-rejecting" Hebrews. He was talking to Hebrews who were living in Rome. Paul actually called THEM to him after he arrived there with other prisoners. These Hebrews hadn't heard the gospel of Christ yet.
Acts 28:16-17
16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
...Paul then began EXPLAINING to these Hebrews what happened between him and the Hebrews in Jerusalem...
Acts 28:18-20
18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...These Hebrews then told him they weren't aware of what went on in Jerusalem with Paul but asked to know what all the commotion was about concerning this "new sect" of followers of God...
Acts 28:21-22
21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
...They set a date and many Hebrews gathered together to hear Paul at his new home, so he explained the gospel using the law and the prophetic books...but not everyone believed the gospel of Christ. Some did and some didn't. It was mixed.
Acts 28:23-24
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
...They all then began leaving discussing it amongst each other and couldn't come to a consensus. And while they were leaving, Paul added the words of Isaiah that said his people would not hear the message so salvation is sent to the Gentiles. This made them discuss it among themselves even more...
Acts 28:25-29
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
Let's let the scriptures reveal what actually happened. At no point did Paul address anything against the law that would cause the Hebrews to be angry with him. Each time other Hebrews grew angry with him in other areas was when people LIED about him speaking against the law. Note that the account says these were LIES.
I told you that if you pretend that all your sins are accidents, you are not being honest.
Remember?
You responded with a commentary that explained that that not all sins are willful,.
Here is your quote... """""""Not all sins are willful/intentional. Some are through ignorance, some are mistakes. """"""
So, that was your reply to me pointing out that all your sins are not accidents or mistakes.
You dodged my point.
And Notice that i didnt "project">?
And notice that you tried to dodge your sinning, which, isn't honest.
Also,
If you actually read Hebrews 10, and then read Acts 28......you'll discovers its the same Apostle talking to the Hebrew Christ Rejectors.
'So.........Pretending this isnt true, is not going to help you here ., but you can continue to do it if that is what you need to do.
Whatever your definition of a "true believer" is it's foreign to the entire process explained in scripture. No one is born again automatically doing what all they need to do. That's the "I can't believe it's not butter" version of the gospel.
The NT letters wouldn't be necessary if the "born again" just automatically DID everything. Asinine and ridiculous. Growth is necessary. "Babes in Christ"??? Your view flies in the face of Paul's entire motivation for writing to those early churches and correcting their walk, as well as the concept of sanctification.
In the kingdom, the Messiah will consider all who taught others to obey the commandments "great". His statement should settle the matter but it probably won't.
So then do you? Don't be shy.
lol I can be the absolute worse sinner ever and the truth - that the commandments are to be obeyed - will still be the truth.
You can call me whatever you want. We're not going to avoid the truth, no matter how much your flesh HATES the law, and will always fight against it. So let's try a different angle.
Yes or no: Is the following the greatest commandment?
... To love God with all of YOUR:
- Heart
- Soul
- Mind
- STRENGTH
...again, that's...
- Love God with all of YOUR Heart.
- Love God with all of YOUR Soul.
- Love God with all of YOUR mind.
- Love God with all of YOUR strength.
Luke 10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
So then to love God with all of your strength = to keep His commandments with all your strength right? Seems the apostles all knew what it meant to actually love the Almighty instead of being all talk.
The funny thing is I posted the full passage as written, untouched...yet again. If referencing yet another full passage - as it is written - looks twisted to you, then it's not the passage that's twisted but your view of it.
The passage said nothing about earning or losing salvation. It was about God's judgment.
Question: what does this mean?
Romans 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
The NT letters wouldn't be necessary if the "born again" just automatically DID everything. Asinine and ridiculous. Growth is necessary. "Babes in Christ"??? Your view flies in the face of Paul's entire motivation for writing to those early churches and correcting their walk, as well as the concept of sanctification.
In the kingdom, the Messiah will consider all who taught others to obey the commandments "great". His statement should settle the matter but it probably won't.
So then do you? Don't be shy.
lol I can be the absolute worse sinner ever and the truth - that the commandments are to be obeyed - will still be the truth.
You can call me whatever you want. We're not going to avoid the truth, no matter how much your flesh HATES the law, and will always fight against it. So let's try a different angle.
Yes or no: Is the following the greatest commandment?
... To love God with all of YOUR:
- Heart
- Soul
- Mind
- STRENGTH
...again, that's...
- Love God with all of YOUR Heart.
- Love God with all of YOUR Soul.
- Love God with all of YOUR mind.
- Love God with all of YOUR strength.
Luke 10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
So then to love God with all of your strength = to keep His commandments with all your strength right? Seems the apostles all knew what it meant to actually love the Almighty instead of being all talk.
The funny thing is I posted the full passage as written, untouched...yet again. If referencing yet another full passage - as it is written - looks twisted to you, then it's not the passage that's twisted but your view of it.
The passage said nothing about earning or losing salvation. It was about God's judgment.
Question: what does this mean?
Romans 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
That what I believe if the salt
Matthew 5:13
“Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.”
Salt may lost his savour
Salt is ye/you/born again can lost his savour
Matthew 5:13
“Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.”
Salt may lost his savour
Salt is ye/you/born again can lost his savour
E
actually jesus told us what a born again person is. And how they become one , he said so in John 3.
Whoever believes. (Vs16)
He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.
There is no doing at all.. Christ did all the work. All he asks from us is to repent and come to faith.
Your the one adding to the gospel. Not me my friend
again. You have no comprehensition of what a believer is
My bible says he has perfected forever those being sanctified. It also says he who began a good work WILL complete it.
Why don;t you believe this? You reject Christ and his power to save then you reject his power to sanctify a believer and you want to say I lack faith?
again who said I do not? You want to keep accusing based on fact you do not have? Typical of a legalist. Judge people not even knowing anything about them. You hurt yur own cause.
Perfection is required!
Do you meet that standard? And have you since birth?
Don;t be shy, tell us if you meet this standard.
my flesh loves the law. It is what brought me to Christ. It is what brought me to my knees, And it is why I refuse to puff myself up thinking I am obedient according to the law. Because I know it better.
When will you allow the law to bring you to your knees? Instead of misrepresenting what the law says??
You answered your own question in 1 John 5. His commands are not burdensome, heavy, grievous,
It not work. Because we love BECAUSE HE FIRT LOVED US!
the power of love does not come from self. It comes from GD HIMSELF.
You want to take too much credit.
Who are doers of the law?
Believers or unbelievers?
what Did John 3 say?
Doers of the law are not condemned, or believers are not condemned?
You cant have it both ways.[/quote][/QUOTE]
Whoever believes. (Vs16)
He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.
There is no doing at all.. Christ did all the work. All he asks from us is to repent and come to faith.
Your the one adding to the gospel. Not me my friend
again. You have no comprehensition of what a believer is
My bible says he has perfected forever those being sanctified. It also says he who began a good work WILL complete it.
Why don;t you believe this? You reject Christ and his power to save then you reject his power to sanctify a believer and you want to say I lack faith?
again who said I do not? You want to keep accusing based on fact you do not have? Typical of a legalist. Judge people not even knowing anything about them. You hurt yur own cause.
Perfection is required!
Do you meet that standard? And have you since birth?
Don;t be shy, tell us if you meet this standard.
my flesh loves the law. It is what brought me to Christ. It is what brought me to my knees, And it is why I refuse to puff myself up thinking I am obedient according to the law. Because I know it better.
When will you allow the law to bring you to your knees? Instead of misrepresenting what the law says??
You answered your own question in 1 John 5. His commands are not burdensome, heavy, grievous,
It not work. Because we love BECAUSE HE FIRT LOVED US!
the power of love does not come from self. It comes from GD HIMSELF.
You want to take too much credit.
Who are doers of the law?
Believers or unbelievers?
what Did John 3 say?
Doers of the law are not condemned, or believers are not condemned?
You cant have it both ways.[/quote][/QUOTE]
It will be perfect if you repent and never commit sin anymore but to me I am son again and again so I have to repent again and again or if say I am murder and keep doing that for living never repent than I will not inherit kg exactly like what Galatians 5:21 sau
I don’t know about you but I believe that verse not lie
I don’t know about you but I believe that verse not lie