Is Obedience Necessary for Salvation?
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Lol listen guys...
This doesn't work the way you think. You don't get to ignore passages that don't fit your beliefs or misrepresent passages so they fit your doctrine.
Lol doesn't matter how many names you call me, or what you attempt to accuse me of. The words say what the words say.
We can take any passage from Paul's letters and I guarantee you that if we read long enough and not cherry pick he supports the law and Messiah.
Messiah = salvation
Law (commandments) = obedience
It's always those two requirements upon the saints. First salvation through faith...then obedience through good work...until glory.
This doesn't work the way you think. You don't get to ignore passages that don't fit your beliefs or misrepresent passages so they fit your doctrine.
Lol doesn't matter how many names you call me, or what you attempt to accuse me of. The words say what the words say.
We can take any passage from Paul's letters and I guarantee you that if we read long enough and not cherry pick he supports the law and Messiah.
Messiah = salvation
Law (commandments) = obedience
It's always those two requirements upon the saints. First salvation through faith...then obedience through good work...until glory.
E
Listen sir
It does not work the way you think, you don't get to twist passages to fit your belief, and ignore the rest of scripture.
it does not matter what you think. The word is a cohesive document, Gods love letter to mankind. It must come as a whole. Not picked apart anyway you want it by picking a verse or verses out of context to get the bible to support your believe system.
If anyone is cherry picking here my friend it is you.
Messiah = salvation
law equals ministers of death as a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ.
Law of love = obedience. and all the law and prophets are fulfilled in this law
It does not work the way you think, you don't get to twist passages to fit your belief, and ignore the rest of scripture.
it does not matter what you think. The word is a cohesive document, Gods love letter to mankind. It must come as a whole. Not picked apart anyway you want it by picking a verse or verses out of context to get the bible to support your believe system.
If anyone is cherry picking here my friend it is you.
Messiah = salvation
law equals ministers of death as a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ.
Law of love = obedience. and all the law and prophets are fulfilled in this law
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Oh Hi! Couldn't resist huh?
ok, please explain the following passages to me. I'm going to post verbatim without any side commentary so there's no danger of twisting. Please tell me what it means. Most likely you'll decline by saying something like "I'm not going to play your game" and then disappear as usual.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
What does this mean?
Who are the saints?
Why isn't the passage: keep the law of love and the faith of Jesus? OR keep Jesus' commandments and faith of Jesus?
What are the commandments of God?
Romans 2:3-16 [Paul's complete thought on the matter, so there's no threat of cherry-picking]
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 [For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another]
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
What's this mean?
ok, please explain the following passages to me. I'm going to post verbatim without any side commentary so there's no danger of twisting. Please tell me what it means. Most likely you'll decline by saying something like "I'm not going to play your game" and then disappear as usual.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
What does this mean?
Who are the saints?
Why isn't the passage: keep the law of love and the faith of Jesus? OR keep Jesus' commandments and faith of Jesus?
What are the commandments of God?
Romans 2:3-16 [Paul's complete thought on the matter, so there's no threat of cherry-picking]
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 [For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another]
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
What's this mean?
Here's the same passage in NIV which is accurate in this specific portion of scripture, so it's safe to post.
Romans 2:3-16 NIV
3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 [ndeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.] 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Romans 2:3-16 NIV
3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 [ndeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.] 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
E
Resist exposing you as the legalist you are? No. Its too easy to pass up!
It means GODS people who ARE born again DO THIS.. (Not might do this)
those born of God
Because it does not have to. Those who follow the law of love DO THESE THINGS, Or do you think Jesus lied when he said ALL the law and prophets are in the law of Love?
To love the lord your God with All your heart mind and soul. and to love your neighbor as yourself. IN THIS IS ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS. If we obey this law WE WILL NEVER BREAK A COMMAND. and in doing so. WILL KEEP THE COMMANDS OF GOD
who are those who do not obey the truth? NON BELIEVERS are they saved? NO. As john said, whoever sins has never seen or known God
Who are those who do good. BELIEVERS. They ALL are saved. As john said, He who is born of God does not sin..
It is sad that you refuse to acknowledge the power of God to change the lives of those who are his, as he PROMISED HE WOULD!
It means GODS people who ARE born again DO THIS.. (Not might do this)
those born of God
Because it does not have to. Those who follow the law of love DO THESE THINGS, Or do you think Jesus lied when he said ALL the law and prophets are in the law of Love?
To love the lord your God with All your heart mind and soul. and to love your neighbor as yourself. IN THIS IS ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS. If we obey this law WE WILL NEVER BREAK A COMMAND. and in doing so. WILL KEEP THE COMMANDS OF GOD
who are those who do not obey the truth? NON BELIEVERS are they saved? NO. As john said, whoever sins has never seen or known God
Who are those who do good. BELIEVERS. They ALL are saved. As john said, He who is born of God does not sin..
It is sad that you refuse to acknowledge the power of God to change the lives of those who are his, as he PROMISED HE WOULD!
It specifically ties to the priesthood.
Those rites and cleansing (blood) rituals that were required of the priests to do - as a memorial - for cleansing sins (whenever the commandments were broken) and for justification were no longer valid to do because the true High Priest has come to perform the true work of cleansing. That section of the law changed. Amended if you will. The law was amended, not ended (just like the US constitution wasn't ended but amended to account for the change in the USA's new situation). Those SAME rites and rituals are CONTINUED by the Messiah in heaven right now (whenever the commandment are broken by us).
So now, all we need to do is go to the throne and ask for forgiveness of those sins and for help to do better next time, but our task remains the same...to not break the law; to obey the commandments.
Those rites and cleansing (blood) rituals that were required of the priests to do - as a memorial - for cleansing sins (whenever the commandments were broken) and for justification were no longer valid to do because the true High Priest has come to perform the true work of cleansing. That section of the law changed. Amended if you will. The law was amended, not ended (just like the US constitution wasn't ended but amended to account for the change in the USA's new situation). Those SAME rites and rituals are CONTINUED by the Messiah in heaven right now (whenever the commandment are broken by us).
So now, all we need to do is go to the throne and ask for forgiveness of those sins and for help to do better next time, but our task remains the same...to not break the law; to obey the commandments.
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You don't know what patience or endurance means then.
So then what you're saying is you love God so much as to obey the 7th day Sabbath and High Sabbath feast days? Because that's a commandment. Believers automatically DO THIS? Or do you make an excuse as to why God loves YOU enough that you don't need to do those things?
Is loving God with all your everything an emotional experience or does it mean you actually need to DO certain things? Do you love God so much to inconvenience yourself to obey the 7th day Sabbath?
You didn't explain the passage. You gave a commentary. Please explain the passage.
So then what you're saying is you love God so much as to obey the 7th day Sabbath and High Sabbath feast days? Because that's a commandment. Believers automatically DO THIS? Or do you make an excuse as to why God loves YOU enough that you don't need to do those things?
Is loving God with all your everything an emotional experience or does it mean you actually need to DO certain things? Do you love God so much to inconvenience yourself to obey the 7th day Sabbath?
You didn't explain the passage. You gave a commentary. Please explain the passage.
Repentance is inside it is induced by acknowledgement of ones sin and this realization produces godly sorrow within and leads to the works of repentance being obedience.
repentance begins in the heart when we realize and acknowledge what we have done
“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
Genesis 6:5-6 KJV
remember that man is made in Gods image so for the church this translates
Paul made known a sin among the church the sinner and the church for approving and flirting in it had done wrong paul rebuked then harshly in the first letter pointing out how wrong the situation was and then later he wrote another letter regarding the operation of repentance
“Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.”
2 Corinthians 7:9-10
David being the source of the sire mercies of David is the prime example he had committed adultery with Uriah the hittites wife and impregnated her , then to cover his transgression he went in a deception binge and it didn’t work so he eventually to cover his guilt ordered uriah a good and godly mans death.
for a time David Hod his sin and didn’t acknowledge it so there was no source of repentance of we refuse our guilt we can never feel the godly sorrow that induces repentance
“Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.”
Psalm 32:1-6 KJV
if we pretend we didn’t sin , it’s going to crush us with God but if we turn and acknowledge our sins we’re going to feel sorrow because of the realization of our own sin against God. And that sorrow of sin is the path to repentance we can’t get it unless we acknowledge the truth in our hearts regarding our own misdeeds
repentance begins in the heart when we realize and acknowledge what we have done
“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
Genesis 6:5-6 KJV
remember that man is made in Gods image so for the church this translates
Paul made known a sin among the church the sinner and the church for approving and flirting in it had done wrong paul rebuked then harshly in the first letter pointing out how wrong the situation was and then later he wrote another letter regarding the operation of repentance
“Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.”
2 Corinthians 7:9-10
David being the source of the sire mercies of David is the prime example he had committed adultery with Uriah the hittites wife and impregnated her , then to cover his transgression he went in a deception binge and it didn’t work so he eventually to cover his guilt ordered uriah a good and godly mans death.
for a time David Hod his sin and didn’t acknowledge it so there was no source of repentance of we refuse our guilt we can never feel the godly sorrow that induces repentance
“Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.”
Psalm 32:1-6 KJV
if we pretend we didn’t sin , it’s going to crush us with God but if we turn and acknowledge our sins we’re going to feel sorrow because of the realization of our own sin against God. And that sorrow of sin is the path to repentance we can’t get it unless we acknowledge the truth in our hearts regarding our own misdeeds