Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I do agree that grace EXCLUDES human effort.

Good for you. Have a blessed day. 😄

Grace is good for everyone, Jerry.

The apostle Paul taught that.

Acts 17-
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.
25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Kinda puts a crimp on Calvinist talking points.

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:
I do agree that grace EXCLUDES human effort.

Grace is good for everyone, Jerry.

The apostle Paul taught that.

Acts 17-
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.
25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Kinda puts a crimp on Calvinist talking points.

God's grace is good, but why does not everyone says "yes" to what is eternally good for them? Answer: Because all people are spiritually dead, and no one is able to respond to God's grace on their own.

God grace is offered to all, but God only causes the elect to respond. Most people are not elect, and will not respond to God's grace offer notwithstanding their hearing the gospel message and seeing the countless numbers of people that do respond and are saved. God offers his grace to the non-elect, but God will not cause the non-elect to say "yes" because God knows they are reprobates, and reprobates they will stay.

Acts 17:30 "but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.” The elect do repent because God, by HIS grace, causes them to repent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's grace is good, but why does not everyone says "yes" to what is eternally good for them? Answer: Because all people are spiritually dead, and no one is able to respond to God's grace on their own.

Wrong. Believers are those who heard and listened to the gospel (Romans 10:14-16), and because God has revealed His divine power and attributes to everyone through creation (Romans 1:19-21), and believed the gospel (Eph 1:13).

You continue to wrongly think that no one can believe the gospel UNTIL God causes them to believe. Yet, you have NOT provided any verse that says such a thing.

God grace is offered to all, but God only causes the elect to respond.

Have you actually thought about this statement? Seems not. Why would God offer grace to those that He Himself CHOSE not to give grace to?

So, how does that work? Are you able to explain such a weird scenario? God offering grace to all, all the while have NO intention of actually giving grace to most. If you think that makes sense, you have a big problem.

Most people are not elect, and will not respond to God's grace offer notwithstanding their hearing the gospel message and seeing the countless numbers of people that do respond and are saved.

Because they chose not to.

God offers his grace to the non-elect, but God will not cause the non-elect to say "yes" because God knows they are reprobates, and reprobates they will stay.

What are you talking about? Every human being is a reprobate; you know, depraved, as in TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

So, quit kidding yourself. Your claims do not make sense. You say God offers grace to all, but in the same breath you claim that God chooses to give grace ONLY to a few.

Acts 17:30 "but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.” The elect do repent because God, by HIS grace, causes them to repent.

Can you explain the sanity of commanding someone to do something that they are totally unable to do?

Kinda like commanding a cripple to walk across the street and then beating him for not obeying the command.

So, how is your theology really any different that this example?

Calvinists admit that God commands everyone to repent, but condemns those He doesn't cause to repent, knowing they can't repent apart from His causation.

Sicko.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Wrong. Believers are those who heard and listened to the gospel (Romans 10:14-16), and because God has revealed His divine power and attributes to everyone through creation (Romans 1:19-21), and believed the gospel (Eph 1:13).

You continue to wrongly think that no one can believe the gospel UNTIL God causes them to believe. Yet, you have NOT provided any verse that says such a thing.


Have you actually thought about this statement? Seems not. Why would God offer grace to those that He Himself CHOSE not to give grace to?

So, how does that work? Are you able to explain such a weird scenario? God offering grace to all, all the while have NO intention of actually giving grace to most. If you think that makes sense, you have a big problem.


Because they chose not to.


What are you talking about? Every human being is a reprobate; you know, depraved, as in TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

So, quit kidding yourself. Your claims do not make sense. You say God offers grace to all, but in the same breath you claim that God chooses to give grace ONLY to a few.


Can you explain the sanity of commanding someone to do something that they are totally unable to do?

Kinda like commanding a cripple to walk across the street and then beating him for not obeying the command.

So, how is your theology really any different that this example?

Calvinists admit that God commands everyone to repent, but condemns those He doesn't cause to repent, knowing they can't repent apart from His causation.

Sicko.

Is God's grace offered to all? Yes.

Do all respond to God's offer? No.

Does God withhold HIS grace from those that want it? No.

Does God know who will respond to His offer? Yes.

Are those who will respond to God's offer able to on their own? No.

Why can't man respond to God's offer on their own? Because they are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins and are inclined to choose evil.

Does God cause those HE knows will respond to in fact respond? Yes, through HIS sovereign grace and the gift of faith.

Charles Hodge, Commentaries of Ephesians 2:8-10.

"That the guilty should stand before God with self-complacency, and refer his salvation in any measure to his own merit, is so abhorrent to all right feeling that Paul assumes it (Rom. 4, 2) as an intuitive truth, that no man can boast before God. And to all who have any proper sense of the holiness of God and of the evil of sin, it is an intuition; and therefore a gratuitous salvation, a salvation which excludes with works all ground of boasting, is the only salvation suited to the relation of guilty men to God." ... "His workmanship are we. He has made us Christians. Our faith is not of ourselves. It is of God that we are in Christ Jesus. The sense in which we are the workmanship of God is explained in the following clause, "created in Christ Jesus; for if any man is in Christ he is a new creature." Union with him is a source of a new life, and a life unto holiness; and therefore it is said created unto good works. Holiness is the end of redemption, for Christ gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works. Titus 2:14. Those therefore who live in sin are not the subjects of this redemption."

 

[JerryInBoston]

Sicko.

I take it you are calling me a "sicko" because I hold to the Biblical doctrines of predestination, election, God's foreknowledge, that God is sovereign in choosing whomever HE wills to believe, and that faith is a gift of God offered by and through HIS sovereign Grace. I'm perfectly okay that we stop our dialogue right here. I don't generally ignore content of others, and I don't want to ignore yours. However ...

Matthew 7:22 "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to the fire of hell."

I'm certain calling someone who is born again and loves the Lord Jesus a "sicko" qualifies. I forgive you. 🙏

 

[JerryInBoston]

Kinda like commanding a cripple to walk across the street and then beating him for not obeying the command.

Sicko.

If man commands a cripple to get up and walk, and the cripple doesn't get up and walk, what power did man have to make such a command to begin with that would justify punishing the cripple for not getting up and walk?

However, when God is the one commanding, even as through the apostle Peter, it is not Peter's command per se that causes the cripple to get up and walk, but the power of God the Holy Spirit that is in Peter and in the cripple who responds through God's gracious gift of faith. Then the cripple gets up and walks.

God's gracious offer is to everyone, but is gifted only by God. Man can nothing on his own, and none but the elect respond.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is God's grace offered to all? Yes.

So far, so good.

Do all respond to God's offer? No.

OK, here's the problem. Since you claim that it is God who CAUSES response and belief, your statement is totally irrelevant and meaningless. It's NOT a matter of anyone "responded to God's offer" when it is God who is the cause of ALL such response.

But it seems you just don't see that. But it is glaringly obvious.

Does God withhold HIS grace from those that want it? No.

So, why would any totally depraved person want it? From Calvinism, no one does. So God has to CAUSE people to want it.

So again, your statement is frivolous.

Does God know who will respond to His offer? Yes.

Again, irrelevant. You claim God CAUSES people to respond, so of course he knows.

But the truth is that God's omniscience doesn't equate to CAUSING.

Are those who will respond to God's offer able to on their own? No.

Of course they are. The Bible says "no one is without excuse". One MUST be able in order to be accountable.

[QUOET]Why can't man respond to God's offer on their own? Because they are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins and are inclined to choose evil.[/QUOTE]
Spiritual death ONLY means unable to initiate with God. It does NOT mean unbelievers can't understand and believe the gospel.

Does God cause those HE knows will respond to in fact respond? Yes, through HIS sovereign grace and the gift of faith.

Calvinist talking points only.

Charles Hodge, Commentaries of Ephesians 2:8-10.
Calvinist.

"That the guilty should stand before God with self-complacency, and refer his salvation in any measure to his own merit, is so abhorrent to all right feeling that Paul assumes it (Rom. 4, 2) as an intuitive truth, that no man can boast before God. And to all who have any proper sense of the holiness of God and of the evil of sin, it is an intuition; and therefore a gratuitous salvation, a salvation which excludes with works all ground of boasting, is the only salvation suited to the relation of guilty men to God." ... "His workmanship are we. He has made us Christians. Our faith is not of ourselves. It is of God that we are in Christ Jesus. The sense in which we are the workmanship of God is explained in the following clause, "created in Christ Jesus; for if any man is in Christ he is a new creature." Union with him is a source of a new life, and a life unto holiness; and therefore it is said created unto good works. Holiness is the end of redemption, for Christ gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works. Titus 2:14. Those therefore who live in sin are not the subjects of this redemption."

Not interested in the opinions of Calvinists.

I am interested in what the Bible actually says. Since you have NOT YET provided any verses that support all your Calvinist talking points, the conclusion is that the talking points aren't biblical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I take it you are calling me a "sicko" because I hold to the Biblical doctrines of predestination, election, God's foreknowledge, that God is sovereign in choosing whomever HE wills to believe, and that faith is a gift of God offered by and through HIS sovereign Grace.

No, I'm NOT calling you anything but a Calvinist. The "sicko" part refers to the claims that can't be supported from Scripture.

Here is what I called "sicko", from post #363:

"Calvinists admit that God commands everyone to repent, but condemns those He doesn't cause to repent, knowing they can't repent apart from His causation."

That IS a sicko idea. It's totally unfair of God to condemn people for WHAT THEY CAN'T DO. Why in the world can't you see this very obvious point?

So, that's what is sicko.

I'm perfectly okay that we stop our dialogue right here. I don't generally ignore content of others, and I don't want to ignore yours. However ...

Matthew 7:22 "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to the fire of hell."

I'm certain calling someone who is born again and loves the Lord Jesus a "sicko" qualifies. I forgive you. 🙏

Again, I never called you a sicko. I responded to what you posted, and I just explained why what you wrote IS sicko.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Kinda like commanding a cripple to walk across the street and then beating him for not obeying the command.

If man commands a cripple to get up and walk, and the cripple doesn't get up and walk, what power did man have to make such a command to begin with that would justify punishing the cripple for not getting up and walk?

<sigh>

I was making a parallel example to the Calvinist claim that God commands people who can't obey and then condemns them for not obeying, when He is the One who causes obedience.

So your question is irrelevant and misses the point. The "power" of the man who commands a cripple to walk who CAN'T walk symbolizes God, who does have the POWER to command.

But it seems you are unable or unwilling to understand this example because it hits so close to home.

However, when God is the one commanding, even as through the apostle Peter, it is not Peter's command per se that causes the cripple to get up and walk, but the power of God the Holy Spirit that is in Peter and in the cripple who responds through God's gracious gift of faith. Then the cripple gets up and walks.

Wow. You really don't get it. Of course God CAUSES cripples to get up and walk. But in Calvinist theology, you have God commanding people to believe when God withholds the ability to believe.

God's gracious offer is to everyone, but is gifted only by God.

This is very conflictted. Why would God offer grace to those He has CHOSEN NOT to believe? That makes no sense.

And you haven't explained why He would.

So here's another parallel example of the Calvinistic notion.

In a room full of people, the man at the front offers $100 to everyone in the room. (offer to all)
However, he only gives the $100 to a minority of people in the room, and refuses to give the money to the rest.

That is EXACTLY the same thing as Calvinism teaches about God and man's belief.

Man can nothing on his own, and none but the elect respond.

Because, in the Calvinist system, God CAUSES them to respond.

Such a system is just about puppets/robots. Nothing more.

And you can't find any verse in the Bible that teaches puppetry or robotics.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Here is what I called "sicko", from post #363:

"Calvinists admit that God commands everyone to repent, but condemns those He doesn't cause to repent, knowing they can't repent apart from His causation."

I never called you a sicko. I responded to what you posted, and I just explained why what you wrote IS sicko.

A distinction without a difference.

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:

So here's another parallel example of the Calvinistic notion.

In a room full of people, the man at the front offers $100 to everyone in the room. (offer to all)
However, he only gives the $100 to a minority of people in the room, and refuses to give the money to the rest.

Poor analogy. But I'll use your scenario.

God comes to a room full of people, all of whom are dead in trespasses and sins, wholly corrupted by the world, the flesh, and the devil. God then extends HIS offer of grace to all in the room saying: "None of you deserve this, but who among you sinners would like to live eternally with ME in MY heavenly kingdom? You must foresake your sin, observe MY commands to love ME as your one and only true God and love others as yourselves, pick up your cross and follow ME and observe all that I say and do." Some say "Yes, Lord, I do." They are the elect, and God gifts them with faith and salvation. Others say "No, I enjoy the life I am living and the fleeting pleasures I derive from all I do." They are the non-elect and God gives them over to reprobation and eternal condemnation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"I never called you a sicko. I responded to what you posted, and I just explained why what you wrote IS sicko."

A distinction without a difference.

If you really do think that, no wonder your understanding of Scripture is what it is.

And you still have no defense or answer for my point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:

So here's another parallel example of the Calvinistic notion.

In a room full of people, the man at the front offers $100 to everyone in the room. (offer to all)
However, he only gives the $100 to a minority of people in the room, and refuses to give the money to the rest.

Poor analogy. But I'll use your scenario.

It's a direct analogy, but of course any Calvinist would have to discount it because it hits the bull's eye regarding Calvinism.

God comes to a room full of people, all of whom are dead in trespasses and sins, wholly corrupted by the world, the flesh, and the devil. God then extends HIS offer of grace to all in the room saying: "None of you deserve this, but who among you sinners would like to live eternally with ME in MY heavenly kingdom? You must foresake your sin, observe MY commands to love ME as your one and only true God and love others as yourselves, pick up your cross and follow ME and observe all that I say and do." Some say "Yes, Lord, I do." They are the elect, and God gifts them with faith and salvation.

How come you left out the REAL part, where God CAUSES (forces) them to say "I do"? Why? They only said that because, in Calvinism, God CAUSES, or forces them to say that.

Others say "No, I enjoy the life I am living and the fleeting pleasures I derive from all I do." They are the non-elect and God gives them over to reprobation and eternal condemnation.

But really, it is God who PREVENTED them from saying "I do".

So you haven't really solved the horrible theology that you really believe.

God condemns those He PREVENTS from believing. That IS the theology of Calvinism.

No different than commanding a cripple to walk, and then kicking them because they can't.

No difference whatsoever.

But of course you'll deny that, but are unable to explain WHY there is no difference.

When God is the CAUSE of an action, man cannot be held responsible for that action.

The same is true when God PREVENTS an action. Man cannot be held responsible for not performing that action.

So, what Calvinism is, in its boiled down state, is nothing more or less than puppetry or robotics.

Calvinists do NOT like such a comparison, but it fits perfectly.

 

[JerryInBoston]

"I never called you a sicko. I responded to what you posted, and I just explained why what you wrote IS sicko."

If you really do think that, no wonder your understanding of Scripture is what it is.

And you still have no defense or answer for my point.

Do you deny that election and predestination are Biblical doctrines? The intention of Jesus's death on the cross is revealed in scripture, of which I have provided and which does support my position. Anyone who believes will be saved, but not everyone believes because everyone is not given the gift of faith. Those who are called are those who are elected to receive the gift of faith.

Hebrews 9:15 "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance" Those who are called refers to the elect, and not all are called elect.

Romans 8:29-30. "28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Those who love God are the called.

Those who are called =
Those whom God foreknew =
Those whom God predestined =
Those whom God called =
Those whom God justified =
Those whom God glorified

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:

How come you left out the REAL part, where God CAUSES (forces) them to say "I do"? Why? They only said that because, in Calvinism, God CAUSES, or forces them to say that.

So you haven't really solved the horrible theology that you really believe.

.

It's not a theological problem at all. As scripture says, God will show mercy on those whom HE decides (chooses) to show mercy, and on those whom God chooses to show mercy, they are the called, the elect. When you claim it was your sole choice to come to faith, you're calling God a liar, because Eph. 2:8 clearly states faith is a gift from God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you deny that election and predestination are Biblical doctrines?

Of course they are. Romans 8.

The intention of Jesus's death on the cross is revealed in scripture, of which I have provided and which does support my position.

Your position has been that God CAUSES peope to believe. You have NOT provided any Scripture that supports such a thing.

And I have provided several parallel analogies that prove that Calvinism is horribly unfair.

Anyone who believes will be saved, but not everyone believes because everyone is not given the gift of faith.

Since your position is that God MUST CAUSE belief, you STILL have a puppetry theology.

The Bible teaches that mankind is accountable, but in Calvinism, God does all the action. Therefore, man CANNOT be accountable for that which God CAUSES.

Who is accountable for those who do not believe the gospel? John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say that those who "have not believed" will be condemned. How is that fair if God is the One who CAUSES belief? You can't answer this.

Those who are called are those who are elected to receive the gift of faith.

This is just a Calvinist talking point. Show me the Scripture, please.

Hebrews 9:15 "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance" Those who are called refers to the elect, and not all are called elect.

Do you understand the Greek meaning of the word "kletos", translated "called"? It means 'invited'. What do you do with an invitation? Either accept it or reject it. That's what free will is. The freedom to choose.

God does NOT CAUSE people to accept or reject anthing. If He did, He would be nothing more than a puppet master. Is that how you view God?

Romans 8:29-30. "28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

There is NOTHING here about God CAUSING anyone to do anything.

Those who love God are the called.

In Calvinism, such people were FORCED by God's CAUSATION to love Him.

Those who are called =
Those whom God foreknew =
Those whom God predestined =
Those whom God called =
Those whom God justified =
Those whom God glorified

And nothing about Calvinism's puppet theology.

Please address my point that if God CAUSES belief man is still accountable for his lack of belief.

Thanks.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Of course they are. Romans 8.


Your position has been that God CAUSES peope to believe. You have NOT provided any Scripture that supports such a thing.

And I have provided several parallel analogies that prove that Calvinism is horribly unfair.


Since your position is that God MUST CAUSE belief, you STILL have a puppetry theology.

The Bible teaches that mankind is accountable, but in Calvinism, God does all the action. Therefore, man CANNOT be accountable for that which God CAUSES.

Who is accountable for those who do not believe the gospel? John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say that those who "have not believed" will be condemned. How is that fair if God is the One who CAUSES belief? You can't answer this.


This is just a Calvinist talking point. Show me the Scripture, please.


Do you understand the Greek meaning of the word "kletos", translated "called"? It means 'invited'. What do you do with an invitation? Either accept it or reject it. That's what free will is. The freedom to choose.

God does NOT CAUSE people to accept or reject anthing. If He did, He would be nothing more than a puppet master. Is that how you view God?


There is NOTHING here about God CAUSING anyone to do anything.


In Calvinism, such people were FORCED by God's CAUSATION to love Him.


And nothing about Calvinism's puppet theology.

Please address my point that if God CAUSES belief man is still accountable for his lack of belief.

Thanks.

I'm curious: are you in a charismatic denomination?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's not a theological problem at all. As scripture says, God will show mercy on those whom HE decides (chooses) to show mercy, and on those whom God chooses to show mercy, they are the called, the elect.

And yet, you STILL DON'T have any verse that says any of this. It's all just talking points. Nothing from Scripture.

Calvinists think God shows mercy randomly or unconditionally. However, the Bible refutes that.

btw, God showing mercy is clearly explained in Isa 55:7. Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Color coded for clarity.

The red words are what the wicked and unrighteous DO. Not God CAUSING.

The blue words show what God does for the wicked and unrighteous and they DO the red words. What is clear in v.7 is that God's mercy and pardon FOLLOW the red words, which is when the wicked forsake their ways and thoughts.

Calvinism has it exactly backwards.

Calvinism is refuted soundly by this verse. And, of course, many others.

When you claim it was your sole choice to come to faith, you're calling God a liar, because Eph. 2:8 clearly states faith is a gift from God.

I've already shown you that v.8 does NOT say that faith is a gift. You are believing a FALSE DOCTRINE.

Salvation, eteranl life and the indwelling Holy Spirit are gifts, and the Bible says so.

v.8 does NOT say faith is a gift, but rather, salvation.

Calvinists stubbornly believe false doctrines. You've been shown the truth. And you don't believe the truth.

Mankind is fully accountable because mankind is fully FREE to choose to believe God or to reject God.

If God does all the choosing (CAUSING) then men are just puppets and God is just a puppet master who pulls their strings.

Some theology that is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The Bible teaches that mankind is accountable, but in Calvinism, God does all the action. Therefore, man CANNOT be accountable for that which God CAUSES.

Who is accountable for those who do not believe the gospel? John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say that those who "have not believed" will be condemned. How is that fair if God is the One who CAUSES belief? You can't answer this."

I'm curious: are you in a charismatic denomination?

Good heaven, NO!! Are you trying to change the subject?

But please focus on my points and questions please.

Who is accountable for those who do not believe the gospel? The unbeliever or God Himself?

 

[JerryInBoston]

I said:
"The Bible teaches that mankind is accountable, but in Calvinism, God does all the action. Therefore, man CANNOT be accountable for that which God CAUSES.

Who is accountable for those who do not believe the gospel? John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say that those who "have not believed" will be condemned. How is that fair if God is the One who CAUSES belief? You can't answer this."

Good heaven, NO!! Are you trying to change the subject?

But please focus on my points and questions please.

Who is accountable for those who do not believe the gospel? The unbeliever or God Himself?

Follow along:

All are dead bc of sin.

God offers grace to all and causes some to believe.

Those who say yes to God's offer of grace, God gifts with faith.

The gift of faith justifies and leads them in sanctification unto glorification.

Those who say no to God's offer of grace, God gives them over to reprobation and eternal condemnation. .