Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[FreeGrace2]

1) we both believe Jesus returns on white horses AFTER the trib.

2) rev 14 debunks your position .

I'll wait UNTIL you quote exact verses from ch 14 before I'll believe anything you post.

But you guys think one verse omits 10.

That would be stupid. I'm not stupid. So your conclusion is wrong. Maybe stupid. You have no evidence for such a thing.

All the positions that reject a pretrib rapture are tribulation/antichrist centered in that you are looking for ANYTHING BUT a rapture.

Actually, EVERY verse that is a rapture verse says NOTHING about Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

Pretrib has all the holes in their theory.

Thank You Jesus for my bible.

Why don't you believe what we have shown you?

The rev 14 dynamic is not going away.

I'm waiting for actual verses that you think show a mid trib rapture.

You cite the chapter enough. Now it's time to quote real verses and I'll see if they support your claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Neither does rev 19 refer to a pretrib event.

The pretrib rapture verses do however.
They will not go away

Wow. My post must have really gotten under your skin. This is probably the 4th post off that one post of mine.

Of course ch 19 doesn't refer to a pretrib event. Who said it did? Such irrelevant comments aren't necessary.

 

[Absolutely]

Wow. My post must have really gotten under your skin. This is probably the 4th post off that one post of mine.

Of course ch 19 doesn't refer to a pretrib event. Who said it did? Such irrelevant comments aren't necessary.

Uh...no.
The verses you post are the 2nd coming on white horses.

As is rev 19.. Just a fact from the bible....not a skin deal at all.

The point is YOU NEED all those rapture verses TO BE the coming on horses.

Which is why i do not take verses off the table. They all mean something. Point in dynamics harmonious to purpose.
If you do not know of the jew harvested last and separate as well as the purpose of the trib and rapture, the tying in of the bride and groom etc. Then you are going to be FORCED to omit things and change others.

 

[Absolutely]

I'll wait UNTIL you quote exact verses from ch 14 before I'll believe anything you post.


That would be stupid. I'm not stupid. So your conclusion is wrong. Maybe stupid. You have no evidence for such a thing.


Actually, EVERY verse that is a rapture verse says NOTHING about Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

Pretrib has all the holes in their theory.


Why don't you believe what we have shown you?


I'm waiting for actual verses that you think show a mid trib rapture.

You cite the chapter enough. Now it's time to quote real verses and I'll see if they support your claims.

144k in heaven in the first few sentences
Ripe fruit gathered by Jesus next

Rotten fruit gathered last to the winepress. That wiuld be armegeddo.

Since armegeddo is last, the gathering of Jesus sitting on a cloud to heaven is NOT. IT IS BEFORE THE END OF THE TRIB.
It is NEITHER the main harvest OR the second coming.
It is all there. Hidden..but there.

Once you SEE IT , you will never see end times the same.

 

[Absolutely]

"""I'm waiting for actual verses that you think show a mid trib rapture.

You cite the chapter enough. Now it's time to quote real verses and I'll see if they support your claims."""
You never looked it up?

That chapter reads extremely easy.

But hidden.
I have never seen anyone else unpack it.

 

[Absolutely]

Oh btw.
In case you are not convinced, here is the very next sentences;

Rev 15
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

So yes all those jews gathered DURING THE TRIB.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Uh...no.
The verses you post are the 2nd coming on white horses.

As is rev 19.. Just a fact from the bible....not a skin deal at all.

The point is YOU NEED all those rapture verses TO BE the coming on horses.

Rather, what pretribbers LACK are any verses showing Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Why doesn't that fact not bother you at all?? It's the whole basis of pretrib rapture; Jesus taking the believers to heaven.

Which is why i do not take verses off the table.

The real problem is that you have NO VERSES to put ON the table. Verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

I

f you do not know of the jew harvested last and separate as well as the purpose of the trib and rapture

This fantasy is refuted by Scripture, which shows that ALL believers from Adam on are resurrected at the same time.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NOTICE THE SINGULAR OF "RESURRECTION" FOR THE SAVED AND ONE FOR THE UNSAVED.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

NOTICE WHO IS IN THE SINGULAR RESURRECTION (ACTS 24:15). THOSE WHO BELONG TO HIM.

Now, please tell me if Jewish believers belong to Christ. And if Adam belongs to Christ.

If these 2 verses don't cause you to repent, you just REFUSE to repent and believe the truth.

But that's your free will.

the tying in of the bride and groom etc. Then you are going to be FORCED to omit things and change others.

I just refuted pretrib theory. There is ONE resurrection of the saved. It involves "those who belong to Him".

Memorize the 2 verses above that prove it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'll wait UNTIL you quote exact verses from ch 14 before I'll believe anything you post.

144k in heaven in the first few sentences
Ripe fruit gathered by Jesus next

Verse numbers?? Where are they?

Rotten fruit gathered last to the winepress. That wiuld be armegeddo.

That war ends the Trib. See? I told you so. Rev 14 is a summary of what is to come.

Since armegeddo is last, the gathering of Jesus sitting on a cloud to heaven is NOT. IT IS BEFORE THE END OF THE TRIB.
It is NEITHER the main harvest OR the second coming.
It is all there. Hidden..but there.

I will ask again. Please quote specific verses with numbers in ch 14 that support your claim.

Once you SEE IT , you will never see end times the same.

I'm waiting to SEE the verses you think support your claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""I'm waiting for actual verses that you think show a mid trib rapture.

You cite the chapter enough. Now it's time to quote real verses and I'll see if they support your claims."""
You never looked it up?

That chapter reads extremely easy.

But hidden.
I have never seen anyone else unpack it.

I've never seen you unpack it. What are you trying to hide?

Why can't you quote the verses that support your claim?

Because there are no verses that support your claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh btw.
In case you are not convinced, here is the very next sentences;

Rev 15
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

So yes all those jews gathered DURING THE TRIB.

So what? Are you claiming that Jews during the Trib are raptured??? From these verses?

You're just SEEING things, all right.

 

[Absolutely]

I'll wait UNTIL you quote exact verses from ch 14 before I'll believe anything you post.


That would be stupid. I'm not stupid. So your conclusion is wrong. Maybe stupid. You have no evidence for such a thing.


Actually, EVERY verse that is a rapture verse says NOTHING about Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

Pretrib has all the holes in their theory.


Why don't you believe what we have shown you?


I'm waiting for actual verses that you think show a mid trib rapture.

You cite the chapter enough. Now it's time to quote real verses and I'll see if they support your claims.

Ok. I figured you would not read it.

But i can kinda lead you through it.

Rev 14.
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

^144k in heaven about mid trib.^

Now the harvest AFTER firstrfruits are in heaven.

Here is the gathering you labled mid trib rapture;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Now explain please how that is anything but jews harvested DURING THE GT.

. ( the winepress judgement gathering is 3rd/ last/ next...and of course at the end of the trib)

I will wait. Your on your own now that i read it to you.

See why i say it is hidden?

 

[Absolutely]

"""That war ends the Trib. See? I told you so. Rev 14 is a summary of what is to come."""

What tribe are you from?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'll wait UNTIL you quote exact verses from ch 14 before I'll believe anything you post.
That would be stupid. I'm not stupid. So your conclusion is wrong. Maybe stupid. You have no evidence for such a thing.
Actually, EVERY verse that is a rapture verse says NOTHING about Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
Pretrib has all the holes in their theory.
Why don't you believe what we have shown you?
I'm waiting for actual verses that you think show a mid trib rapture.

You cite the chapter enough. Now it's time to quote real verses and I'll see if they support your claims.

Ok. I figured you would not read it.

I asked for the specific verses you think are in ch 14 that support your claims about ch 14. I will read the verses WHEN you quote them.

But i can kinda lead you through it.

Rev 14.
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

OK, I see singing by 144K virgins, who follow the Lamb. There was no guile in their mouths.

Well, another wasted post.

^144k in heaven about mid trib.^ Now the harvest AFTER firstrfruits are in heaven.

Are you aware that there have been 2 men who were taken to heaven without dying or being raptured way before all this? What makes you think the 144K have been raptured? Just more presumptions.

Here is the gathering you labled mid trib rapture;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Now explain please how that is anything but jews harvested DURING THE GT.

I have Henry Morris' commentary The Revelation Record. He is pretrib, like yourself. However, his commentary on Revelation is quite
insightful for the most part. Re: ch 14, he explains v.14-16 as judgment on the earth during the last half of the Trib.

See why i say it is hidden?

There is no mid trib rapture. You are seeing things that simply aren't there.

The harvesting of the earth refers to judgment.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""That war ends the Trib. See? I told you so. Rev 14 is a summary of what is to come."""

What tribe are you from?

Kind of a goofy question, don'tcha think? Do you think I'm Jewish, or Indian?

 

[Runningman]

What tribe are you from?

You mean like in Lord of the Rings: elves, hobbits, orcs?

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'll wait UNTIL you quote exact verses from ch 14 before I'll believe anything you post.
That would be stupid. I'm not stupid. So your conclusion is wrong. Maybe stupid. You have no evidence for such a thing.
Actually, EVERY verse that is a rapture verse says NOTHING about Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
Pretrib has all the holes in their theory.
Why don't you believe what we have shown you?
I'm waiting for actual verses that you think show a mid trib rapture.

You cite the chapter enough. Now it's time to quote real verses and I'll see if they support your claims.

I asked for the specific verses you think are in ch 14 that support your claims about ch 14. I will read the verses WHEN you quote them.


OK, I see singing by 144K virgins, who follow the Lamb. There was no guile in their mouths.

Well, another wasted post.


Are you aware that there have been 2 men who were taken to heaven without dying or being raptured way before all this? What makes you think the 144K have been raptured? Just more presumptions.


I have Henry Morris' commentary The Revelation Record. He is pretrib, like yourself. However, his commentary on Revelation is quite
insightful for the most part. Re: ch 14, he explains v.14-16 as judgment on the earth during the last half of the Trib.


There is no mid trib rapture. You are seeing things that simply aren't there.

The harvesting of the earth refers to judgment.

"""Are you aware that there have been 2 men who were taken to heaven without dying or being raptured way before all this? What makes you think the 144K have been raptured? Just more presumptions."""

Take it up with Jesus.
Rev 14 begins with 144k firstfruit jews harvested from the earth and before the throne IN HEAVEN.

I AM JUST REPORTING what is there.

You saying they are not pictured in heaven?

Kinda bizarre you going against what is written.

Also bizarre that you reframe Jesus harvesting that same mass of Jews that he got the 144k firstfruits from as something other than what is clearly worded.


"""There is no mid trib rapture"""

THIS;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

IS AFTER this;
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

AND BEFORE THIS;
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Three events.
1st event
2nd event
3rd event.

FRAMED DURING THE GT.....as follows;

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I just report what is there.

 

[Absolutely]

You mean like in Lord of the Rings: elves, hobbits, orcs?

Rev 14 is centered in jews. Grape harvest.

Here are their tribes.;
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 14 is not a general gathering or judgement. It is jewish.

 

[Absolutely]

Kind of a goofy question, don'tcha think? Do you think I'm Jewish, or Indian?

The 144k are ethnic jewish firstfruits.
Firstfruits is a PORTION of main harvest.
So we are dealing with millions of Jews.

( that would be tribes)

 

[Jocund]

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

IS AFTER this;
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

AND BEFORE THIS;
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Three events.
1st event
2nd event
3rd event.

FRAMED DURING THE GT.....as follows;

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You have made some assumptions:

1) Earth was reaped = rapture
2) The 144000 are Jewish
3) redeemed from the earth = rapture
4) The passages describe events in perfect chronology

Each of your assumptions are not necessarily true.

It is possible that:
1) The "earth was reaped" refers to the grapes of wrath, not a "grape" rapture of living people into heaven.
2) The 144000 are necessarily Jewish Christians
3) The 144000 were redeemed from a state of death, not raptured while alive. The 144000 refers to servants of God that died before the crucifixion.
4) Some passages backtrack or jump forward momentarily to describe something out of perfect chronological order.

While you are free to make your own assumptions, the assumptions you have presented are not necessary.

 

[Absolutely]

Kind of a goofy question, don'tcha think? Do you think I'm Jewish, or Indian?

The 144k are ethnic jewish firstfruits.
Firstfruits is a PORTION of main harvest.
So we are dealing with millions of Jews.

( that would be tribes)

You have made some assumptions:

1) Earth was reaped = rapture
2) The 144000 are Jewish
3) redeemed from the earth = rapture
4) The passages describe events in perfect chronology

Each of your assumptions are not necessarily true.

It is possible that:
1) The "earth was reaped" refers to the grapes of wrath, not a "grape" rapture of living people into heaven.
2) The 144000 are necessarily Jewish Christians
3) The 144000 were redeemed from a state of death, not raptured while alive. The 144000 refers to servants of God that died before the crucifixion.
4) Some passages backtrack or jump forward momentarily to describe something out of perfect chronological order.

While you are free to make your own assumptions, the assumptions you have presented are not necessary.

i never have said or implied the 3 gatherings of rev 14 are the main rapture of 1 thes 4.
If you mean " rapture" as a caught up gathering, as in those gathered by Jesus sitting on a cloud in rev 14, then yes it is a rapture of Jews.

Your assumptions are answered as follows;
1) not really...only the 3rd group have ANYTHING to do with wrath
2) yes messianic ethnic Jews. Not proselyite Jews from other nations.
3) no...you made every bit of that up
4) yes SOME DO...SOME DO NOT, it is usually obvious.