Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you provide any verse that says election is to salvation? No, there aren't any.

Nope. The purpose of this election is clearly stated in the purpose clause of "that we should be". And it's subjunctive mood, meaning it's something believers (us) OUGHT/SHOULD do.

Huh? We ARE elected. TO service.

You make up your own stuff

Your opinion counts for nothing. I provide verses that support what I say. If you can refute what I say from the verses I quote, please be my guest.

thats why no one can discuss things with you

If you have the truth and therefore can refute what I say, why don't you? Where are the verses that support what you claim?

you ask for proof, when it is given to you you reject it a d twist it to fit Your own belief.

That's your twist. I show WHY your verses don't support what you say. But you don't even try to explain where or how I'm wrong.

your NOT holy based on how good you are, so beng chosen or elect to be holy is NOT SERVICE

You are free to misunderstand the purpose of election.

[QUTOE]You are NOT without blame based on your service, apart from grace, if God demanded you pay your own sin debt, yu would be guilty as charged,l so that is NOT about service.[/QUOTE]
So a believer who is faithful and obedient, which IS service, isn't "without blame"?

OK, then. Please explain Job 1:1 - 1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

twist it however you want, YOUR WRONG!

Prove it.

it seems everyone sees this but you

Truth isn't something that is voted on by the majority.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Every human being is born under the penalty of sin. Condemned is the biblical word.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Every human is born an unbeliever. Condemned.

Yep

and no human being is regenerated apart from having the condemnation removed, which is called justification, which can not happen until they say yes to Christ in faith as the tax collector did.

the tax collector was not regenerated until he was justified, he came to his knees because God drew him, the Hs convicted him and he was taught by God that he needed a savior.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you provide any verse that says election is to salvation? No, there aren't any.

Nope. The purpose of this election is clearly stated in the purpose clause of "that we should be". And it's subjunctive mood, meaning it's something believers (us) OUGHT/SHOULD do.

Huh? We ARE elected. TO service.

Your opinion counts for nothing. I provide verses that support what I say. If you can refute what I say from the verses I quote, please be my guest.


If you have the truth and therefore can refute what I say, why don't you? Where are the verses that support what you claim?


That's your twist. I show WHY your verses don't support what you say. But you don't even try to explain where or how I'm wrong.


You are free to misunderstand the purpose of election.



Truth isn't something that is voted on by the majority.

Well you have your opinion. That’s all you have, and like you said, it counts for nothing. Because many here have proved you wrong,

good day sir..

 

[JerryInBoston]

You still can not have regeneration occure before justification

a person can not be born again while still under the penalty of sin

It all happens at once: regenerated/justified/sanctified. God is able.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It all happens at once: regenerated/justified/sanctified. God is able.

It may
but it is based on receiving him. Not regeneration
but as many as have received him to THEM he gave the power or right to be sons of God
we are born again into Gods family through faith Not the other way around

 

[JerryInBoston]

Where do you get that idea from?


No, you haven't.


You make no sense.

However, I proved that both salvation and regeneration occur THROUGH FAITH, from Eph 2:5 and 8.

Faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.

You have not provided any verse that shows regeneration causes, leads to, or precedes faith.

If you are satisfied with a view that has no biblical support, whatever.

Yeah. That should've said "agree to disagree." But, since you're always right in your own eyes, it figures you'd take a dig.

Here is where you and I differ: I believe scripture explicitly and impliedly states God does choose whomever HE wants to believe, or respond and to come to repentance and faith, or be regenerated, and you don't. The reason you don't is because you don't view scripture as explicitly or impliedly stating that God is able to choose whom HE wants to believe, or to come to repentance and faith, and to be regenerated. You don't believe God is able because, according to you, it's not scriptural.

The Bible does not explicitly state that God is three, but it does explicitly state God is one. Yet, I believe in the Trinitarian Godhead consisting of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Don't you?

The Bible is not explicit in that Jesus never said "I am God", yet I believe Jesus is God. Don't you?

The Bible does not explicitly state that the Church will be raptured before the Day of the Lord (7 year period of tribulation/Jacobs Trouble). Yet many believe, through cobbling enough scripture, and ignoring enough scripture, there is a pretrial rapture of the church. Is pretrib rapture your belief, too?

The Bible does not explicitly say that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are fallen angels, yet many believe they are indeed fallen angels. Do you believe that, too?

Even if the verses I've cited in support of my position were not part of the Word of God, I believe, since God is able to create the universe and all that is in it, to speak things into existence, to rain fire and brimstone down to earth, to raise the dead from the grave, that God is able to choose whomever HE wants or wills to repent, to believe, to regenerate, to save, and that HE does so. Don't you?

 

[JerryInBoston]

It may
but it is based on receiving him. Not regeneration
but as many as have received him to THEM he gave the power or right to be sons of God
we are born again into Gods family through faith Not the other way around

Yes, of course, but it can and does happen simultaneously. Jesus said: "repent and believe" ... and ... "you must be born again." Now, if I repent, it means I've changed my mind from unbelief to belief. Another way of saying I've repented is that I've turned around 180 degrees from the way I once thought and believed and lived my life, and surrendered completely to the Lord. In that very same moment of repentance/belief, I'm regenerated - Born Again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did already
the penalty (wage) of sin is death (see gods warning to Adam and Romans 5)
the gift of God is life
the gift of God is justification
we are justified by faith (Romans 3, 4)
hence sanctification can not occure before justification, and justification can not occur before faith.

If I ever posted that justification occurs before faith, that would have been a huge type. Of course it can't. Just as salvation and regeneration cannot occur before faith.

Whether you see it or not is beside the point, I proved it with scripture.

Which I also proved with Eph 2:5,8.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yep

and no human being is regenerated apart from having the condemnation removed, which is called justification, which can not happen until they say yes to Christ in faith as the tax collector did.

Agreed.

the tax collector was not regenerated until he was justified, he came to his knees because God drew him, the Hs convicted him and he was taught by God that he needed a savior.

Agreed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you provide any verse that says election is to salvation? No, there aren't any.

Nope. The purpose of this election is clearly stated in the purpose clause of "that we should be". And it's subjunctive mood, meaning it's something believers (us) OUGHT/SHOULD do.

Huh? We ARE elected. TO service.

Well you have your opinion. That’s all you have, and like you said, it counts for nothing. Because many here have proved you wrong,

The only way to be proved wrong is for someone to provide a verse that says that election is to salvation. And as of yet, NO ONE has done that.

I've shown a number of verses that clearly show the purpose of election is for service. Do you need a refresher?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is where you and I differ: I believe scripture explicitly and impliedly states God does choose whomever HE wants to believe,

OK, please quote the "explicit verses" that state God chooses who will believe.

or respond and to come to repentance and faith, or be regenerated, and you don't.

I don't believe that because the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible does say that "God is pleased...to save those who believe". That's as close to a choice as you'll find in Scripture about who God chooses to save.

The reason you don't is because you don't view scripture as explicitly or impliedly stating that God is able to choose whom HE wants to believe

No, the reason is that the Bible NEVER says what you believe. You have an opinion without any evidence.

or to come to repentance and faith, and to be regenerated. You don't believe God is able because, according to you, it's not scriptural.

God is able to do whatever is according to His perfect character. However, since the Bible does NOT say what you opine, there is NO REASON to believe your opinion.

Your judgment of me is totally false. I absolutely believe that God is omnipotent, so please keep your faulty opinions about me to yourself. Such claims embarrass you.

The Bible does not explicitly state that God is three, but it does explicitly state God is one. Yet, I believe in the Trinitarian Godhead consisting of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Don't you?

The Bible explicitly calls the Father God, the Son God and the Holy Spirit God. Anyone who can count to 3 can figure out that God is 3 Persons, all with the same exact characteristics.

The Bible is not explicit in that Jesus never said "I am God", yet I believe Jesus is God. Don't you?

Your questions are getting pretty weird. Jesus DID say that He is God's Son. Didn't you know that? From your question, it appears that you didn't.

John 10:36 - what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

The Bible does not explicitly state that the Church will be raptured before the Day of the Lord (7 year period of tribulation/Jacobs Trouble). Yet many believe, through cobbling enough scripture, and ignoring enough scripture, there is a pretrial rapture of the church. Is pretrib rapture your belief, too?

Of course not. Because not only does the Bible NEVER show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven, it clearly states that there will be "a resurrection", which is SINGULAR for the saved, and one for the unsaved in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Then consider 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. The context in 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of the saved. We see that Christ is the FIRST one to receive His resurrection body, and THEN, WHEN HE COMES, "those who belong to Him", which means everyone else who is saved.

A pretrib rapture requires "phased" resurrections and raptures. None of which is found in Scripture. It's all just a construct.

Then, 2 Thess 2:1 says, Concerning the coming (Second Coming) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, This verse locates the rapture AT the Second Coming.

If the red words refer to some other events, then please explain what other words should be used.

Then, we have Rev 20:4 - I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This verse shows the resurrection occurs AFTER the Tribulation.

The Bible does not explicitly say that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are fallen angels, yet many believe they are indeed fallen angels. Do you believe that, too?

I do because of what Jude wrote.

Even if the verses I've cited in support of my position were not part of the Word of God, I believe, since God is able to create the universe and all that is in it, to speak things into existence, to rain fire and brimstone down to earth, to raise the dead from the grave, that God is able to choose whomever HE wants or wills to repent, to believe, to regenerate, to save, and that HE does so. Don't you?

Again, I don't believe that God chooses who will believe because there is NOTHING in Scripture to base that on.

In fact, Scripture shows the opposite; that man is accountable for his decisions.

Consider that IF God did choose who would believe, everyone He didn't choose to believe would have the PERFECT EXCUSE at the GWT judgment. They would legitimately be able to say, I wasn't chosen to believe, so why am I being judged for something I had NO CHOICE in the matter?

Is that what you believe?

 

[JerryInBoston]

OK, please quote the "explicit verses" that state God chooses who will believe.


I don't believe that because the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible does say that "God is pleased...to save those who believe". That's as close to a choice as you'll find in Scripture about who God chooses to save.


No, the reason is that the Bible NEVER says what you believe. You have an opinion without any evidence.


God is able to do whatever is according to His perfect character. However, since the Bible does NOT say what you opine, there is NO REASON to believe your opinion.

Your judgment of me is totally false. I absolutely believe that God is omnipotent, so please keep your faulty opinions about me to yourself. Such claims embarrass you.


The Bible explicitly calls the Father God, the Son God and the Holy Spirit God. Anyone who can count to 3 can figure out that God is 3 Persons, all with the same exact characteristics.


Your questions are getting pretty weird. Jesus DID say that He is God's Son. Didn't you know that? From your question, it appears that you didn't.

John 10:36 - what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


Of course not. Because not only does the Bible NEVER show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven, it clearly states that there will be "a resurrection", which is SINGULAR for the saved, and one for the unsaved in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Then consider 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. The context in 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of the saved. We see that Christ is the FIRST one to receive His resurrection body, and THEN, WHEN HE COMES, "those who belong to Him", which means everyone else who is saved.

A pretrib rapture requires "phased" resurrections and raptures. None of which is found in Scripture. It's all just a construct.

Then, 2 Thess 2:1 says, Concerning the coming (Second Coming) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, This verse locates the rapture AT the Second Coming.

If the red words refer to some other events, then please explain what other words should be used.

Then, we have Rev 20:4 - I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This verse shows the resurrection occurs AFTER the Tribulation.


I do because of what Jude wrote.


Again, I don't believe that God chooses who will believe because there is NOTHING in Scripture to base that on.

In fact, Scripture shows the opposite; that man is accountable for his decisions.

Consider that IF God did choose who would believe, everyone He didn't choose to believe would have the PERFECT EXCUSE at the GWT judgment. They would legitimately be able to say, I wasn't chosen to believe, so why am I being judged for something I had NO CHOICE in the matter?

Is that what you believe?

But you do reject God as omnipotent because you limit God's ability to choose based on your personal interpretation of scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, please quote the "explicit verses" that state God chooses who will believe.


I don't believe that because the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible does say that "God is pleased...to save those who believe". That's as close to a choice as you'll find in Scripture about who God chooses to save.

God is able to do whatever is according to His perfect character. However, since the Bible does NOT say what you opine, there is NO REASON to believe your opinion.

Your judgment of me is totally false. I absolutely believe that God is omnipotent, so please keep your faulty opinions about me to yourself. Such claims embarrass you.

But you do reject God as omnipotent because you limit God's ability to choose based on your personal interpretation of scripture.

Are you not able to comprehend my words? I just said that God is omnipotent.

And you then ask if I reject God as omnipotent. As I also said, your questions are getting weird. Now they're even more weird.

I haven't limited God's omnipotence at all.

The Bible doesn't teach what you opine. So you believe something without evidence.

I explained and proved what the Bible teaches. Man is accountable.

I ended my post with this:

In fact, Scripture shows the opposite; that man is accountable for his decisions.

Consider that IF God did choose who would believe, everyone He didn't choose to believe would have the PERFECT EXCUSE at the GWT judgment. They would legitimately be able to say, I wasn't chosen to believe, so why am I being judged for something I had NO CHOICE in the matter?

Is that what you believe?

Well, are you going to answer my question?

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, please quote the "explicit verses" that state God chooses who will believe.


I don't believe that because the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible does say that "God is pleased...to save those who believe". That's as close to a choice as you'll find in Scripture about who God chooses to save.

God is able to do whatever is according to His perfect character. However, since the Bible does NOT say what you opine, there is NO REASON to believe your opinion.

Your judgment of me is totally false. I absolutely believe that God is omnipotent, so please keep your faulty opinions about me to yourself. Such claims embarrass you.

Are you not able to comprehend my words? I just said that God is omnipotent.

And you then ask if I reject God as omnipotent. As I also said, your questions are getting weird. Now they're even more weird.

I haven't limited God's omnipotence at all.

The Bible doesn't teach what you opine. So you believe something without evidence.

I explained and proved what the Bible teaches. Man is accountable.

I ended my post with this:

In fact, Scripture shows the opposite; that man is accountable for his decisions.

Consider that IF God did choose who would believe, everyone He didn't choose to believe would have the PERFECT EXCUSE at the GWT judgment. They would legitimately be able to say, I wasn't chosen to believe, so why am I being judged for something I had NO CHOICE in the matter?

Is that what you believe?

Well, are you going to answer my question?

You say on one hand that God is omnipotent and would do nothing contrary to HIS character (of which I completely agree). Then on the other hand you say God does not choose who will believe because (you say) the Bible doesn't contain any scripture that states God chooses whom HE wants or wills to believe.

By your own admission, you view God as less than omnipotent. That, or we have two very different views on omnipotence. My view says God is able (Omnipotent), notwithstanding scripture. Your view says God is not able (impotent) because scripture does not explicitly say God chooses people to believe. I've cited scripture sufficiently defending the position that God chooses people to believe. You reject that position. End of argument. Stay blessed 🙏

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, please quote the "explicit verses" that state God chooses who will believe.

You say on one hand that God is omnipotent and would do nothing contrary to HIS character (of which I completely agree). Then on the other hand you say God does not choose who will believe because (you say) the Bible doesn't contain any scripture that states God chooses whom HE wants or wills to believe.

OK, so you are agreeing that the Bible doesn't teach that God chooses who will believe. The concept isn't found in the Bible.

And, you completely misunderstand my clear words. I have shown FROM SCRIPTURE what God chooses to do. He chooses to save those who believe. Which is the opposite of your view. But don't take my word for it. Please take the apostle's word for it.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So you see, it is God's choice to save those who believe. That is His choice.

You express your opinion, without any Scriptural support. I show from God's Word what God has chosen to do, which is to save those who believe.

By your own admission, you view God as less than omnipotent.

It's really hard to take you seriously with this kind of nonsense comment. Pay attention to what I posted:

"Your judgment of me is totally false. I absolutely believe that God is omnipotent, so please keep your faulty opinions about me to yourself. Such claims embarrass you.

Are you not able to comprehend my words? I just said that God is omnipotent."

Yet you claim by my "own admission", when I made NO SUCH ADMISSION.

It appears you are either NOT paying attention to what I post, or you have decided to twist my words into what I never said.

That, or we have two very different views on omnipotence.

Why is it hard for you to understand what the Bible says about what pleases God regarding man's salvation?

My view says God is able (Omnipotent), notwithstanding scripture.

Since Scripture doesn't say anything about God choosing who will believe, where did you get your ideas from?

When you say "notwithstanding Scripture" you really mean "notwithstanding the LACK of Scripture" to support your claim.

Your view says God is not able (impotent) because scripture does not explicitly say God chooses people to believe.

This is really pathetic. My view DOES NOT SAY ANY SUCH THING. My view acknowledges what the Bible says; that God is pleased to save believers. That is what God chooses to do; save those who believe.

I've cited scripture sufficiently defending the position that God chooses people to believe.

No you haven't. Thinking you have isn't reality.

You reject that position. End of argument. Stay blessed 🙏

You may quit any time. You don't have any evidence for your position. I do. Your mind seems closed to truth. Demonstrated by a claim without Scriptural support.

You read the word "choose, elect" and assume it means God choosing who will believe.

btw, I ended my last post with a statement and question, which you ignored. Would you please address/answer my question?

"Consider that IF God did choose who would believe, everyone He didn't choose to believe would have the PERFECT EXCUSE at the GWT judgment. They would legitimately be able to say, I wasn't chosen to believe, so why am I being judged for something I had NO CHOICE in the matter?

Is that what you believe?"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, of course, but it can and does happen simultaneously. Jesus said: "repent and believe" ... and ... "you must be born again." Now, if I repent, it means I've changed my mind from unbelief to belief. Another way of saying I've repented is that I've turned around 180 degrees from the way I once thought and believed and lived my life, and surrendered completely to the Lord. In that very same moment of repentance/belief, I'm regenerated - Born Again.

You are backpeddling

Nicodemus obviously came to saving faith after he was regenerated. I've supported my position with plenty of scripture, which you are free to reject. I'm satisfied with my position. I disagree to disagree with your views. Have a blessed day.

you stated regeneration came before faith, you can’t have it both ways

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I ever posted that justification occurs before faith, that would have been a huge type. Of course it can't. Just as salvation and regeneration cannot occur before faith.


Which I also proved with Eph 2:5,8.

You are so forgetful

here is our conversation,

I stated the following

Regeneration can not come until justification occures my friend

you can not be born again in sin.

john 3: 16 says Jesus died for the whole world. so that anyone who believes in him will not die,

your response was this

Prove it from actual Scripture.
.

now why would you ask me to prove it if you already believed it

 

[JerryInBoston]

You are backpeddling



you stated regeneration came before faith, you can’t have it both ways

Thank you. That statement should read: "Nicodemus came to faith as he was born again."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thank you. That statement should read: "Nicodemus came to faith as he was born again."

Actually it should read, nicodemus was born again, as a result of coming to faith

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, please quote the "explicit verses" that state God chooses who will believe.

OK, so you are agreeing that the Bible doesn't teach that God chooses who will believe. The concept isn't found in the Bible.

And, you completely misunderstand my clear words. I have shown FROM SCRIPTURE what God chooses to do. He chooses to save those who believe. Which is the opposite of your view. But don't take my word for it. Please take the apostle's word for it.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So you see, it is God's choice to save those who believe. That is His choice.

You express your opinion, without any Scriptural support. I show from God's Word what God has chosen to do, which is to save those who believe.


It's really hard to take you seriously with this kind of nonsense comment. Pay attention to what I posted:

"Your judgment of me is totally false. I absolutely believe that God is omnipotent, so please keep your faulty opinions about me to yourself. Such claims embarrass you.

Are you not able to comprehend my words? I just said that God is omnipotent."

Yet you claim by my "own admission", when I made NO SUCH ADMISSION.

It appears you are either NOT paying attention to what I post, or you have decided to twist my words into what I never said.


Why is it hard for you to understand what the Bible says about what pleases God regarding man's salvation?


Since Scripture doesn't say anything about God choosing who will believe, where did you get your ideas from?

When you say "notwithstanding Scripture" you really mean "notwithstanding the LACK of Scripture" to support your claim.


This is really pathetic. My view DOES NOT SAY ANY SUCH THING. My view acknowledges what the Bible says; that God is pleased to save believers. That is what God chooses to do; save those who believe.


No you haven't. Thinking you have isn't reality.


You may quit any time. You don't have any evidence for your position. I do. Your mind seems closed to truth. Demonstrated by a claim without Scriptural support.

You read the word "choose, elect" and assume it means God choosing who will believe.

btw, I ended my last post with a statement and question, which you ignored. Would you please address/answer my question?

"Consider that IF God did choose who would believe, everyone He didn't choose to believe would have the PERFECT EXCUSE at the GWT judgment. They would legitimately be able to say, I wasn't chosen to believe, so why am I being judged for something I had NO CHOICE in the matter?

Is that what you believe?"

God predestines and God elects unto salvation, but nowhere in scripture does God predestine or elect unto hell.

The state of human nature is fallen and most will remain in their fallen state. They are without excuse.