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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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yes ... truth as revealed in Scripture ... rightly dividing the Word of Truth
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
It delivered us from wrath !
1 Thess 1:10
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Who is Paul speaking of here ? Lets look at vs 4-5
4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake
He is writing to the Election of Grace. Those that Christ died for and rose again, and by that, He delivered God's Elect from the Wrath to come !
The wrath here is that vindicative punishment that the wicked, unbelievers will receive as Per Matt 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Matt 25:41
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
We know Christ could not have died for those whom He will yet say these words unto, for He calls them cursed !
Now all for whom Christ did die have been redeemed from the curse of the Law, Christ being made a curse in their room and stead Gal 3:13
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
The word for is the prep huper and means:
in behalf of, for the sake of
over, beyond, more than
more, beyond, over
So , for all those He died, God made Him a curse in behalf of them ! And this released them from the curse of the Law. Now the strength of sin being the law, no sin can they ever be condemned for ! He being made a curse for them, was their deliverance, their salvation from the wrath to come 1 Thess 5:984
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 Thess 1:10
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Who is Paul speaking of here ? Lets look at vs 4-5
4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake
He is writing to the Election of Grace. Those that Christ died for and rose again, and by that, He delivered God's Elect from the Wrath to come !
The wrath here is that vindicative punishment that the wicked, unbelievers will receive as Per Matt 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Matt 25:41
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
We know Christ could not have died for those whom He will yet say these words unto, for He calls them cursed !
Now all for whom Christ did die have been redeemed from the curse of the Law, Christ being made a curse in their room and stead Gal 3:13
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
The word for is the prep huper and means:
in behalf of, for the sake of
over, beyond, more than
more, beyond, over
So , for all those He died, God made Him a curse in behalf of them ! And this released them from the curse of the Law. Now the strength of sin being the law, no sin can they ever be condemned for ! He being made a curse for them, was their deliverance, their salvation from the wrath to come 1 Thess 5:984
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
It accomplished believers in Himself !
The Death of Christ, it accomplished for all those He died for, for them to become believers in Him, yes that was one of God's Purposes behind it. Jn 3:14-17
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
False teachers have made believing on Christ in these scriptures something man must do or perform as a condition to gain eternal life which is untrue, but believing on Christ is the purposed result and effect of the Death of Christ for all He died for and are believing [present tense]for His death delivers them He died for from unbelief. The Holy Spirit applies the merits of Christ death [give life]upon all He died for, convincing them of sin [an effect of new birth] because by nature, they believe not on Him Jn 16:8-9
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
The Death of Christ, it accomplished for all those He died for, for them to become believers in Him, yes that was one of God's Purposes behind it. Jn 3:14-17
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
False teachers have made believing on Christ in these scriptures something man must do or perform as a condition to gain eternal life which is untrue, but believing on Christ is the purposed result and effect of the Death of Christ for all He died for and are believing [present tense]for His death delivers them He died for from unbelief. The Holy Spirit applies the merits of Christ death [give life]upon all He died for, convincing them of sin [an effect of new birth] because by nature, they believe not on Him Jn 16:8-9
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
what the Spirit may be revealing to one person may be very Milky understandings. another more like herbs, others Meat, and so on and so on. so... because of this, the one on all Milk may find any strong Meat teachings or meat teachings, Herbs -- not to their liking or even reprehensible possible.
especially perhaps if there are grave errors in one's milky understandings -- this can keep one Shackled where they are at, unable to move forward into more proper understandings that will in turn remove more Shackles .... or darknesses from our eyes as we progress on the road of following Christ (into All truth).
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life ............ "
5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
1 John 4:14-15 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
From HELPS Word-studies:brightfame52 said:
5228 hypér (a preposition) – properly, beyond (above); (figuratively) to extend benefit (help) that reaches beyond the present situation.
5228 /hypér ("beyond") is usually best translated "for the betterment (advantage) of," i.e. focusing on benefit.
5228 (hypér) naturally expresses conferring benefit, i.e. for the sake of "betterment" (improvement, extending benefit).
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:3. in the place of, instead of (which is more precisely expressed by ἀντί; hence, the two prepositions are interchanged by Irenaeus, adv. haer. 5, 1, τῷ ἰδίῳ αἵματι λυτρωσαμένου ἡμᾶς τοῦ κυρίουκαί δόντος τήν ψυχήν ὑπέρ τῶν ἡμετέρων ψυχῶν καί τήνσάρκα τήν ἑαυτοῦ ἀντί τῶν ἡμετέρων σαρκῶν): ἵνα ὑπέρ σουμοι διακονῇ ... in expressions concerning the death of Christ: εἷς ὑπέρ πάντων ἀπέθανεν (for the inference is drawn ἄρα οἱ πάντες ἀπέθανον, i. e. all are reckoned as dead), 2 Corinthians 5:14(15),15; add, 21; Galatians 3:13 ... Since anything, whether of an active or passive character which is undertaken on behalf of a person or thing, is undertaken 'on account of' that person or thing, ὑπέρ is used
God's Word is true. Just leave it at that.
You just could not let God's Word stand as writtenbrightfame52 said:
Again, God's Word is true. Stick to what is written.
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
Gal 6:14 Crucified to the world !
Gal 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.86
Paul makes a Christ Glorifying statement here about the Cross of Christ, One of it's many accomplishments and effects to them He died for. He states "by whom " meaning Christ, His Work, the world is crucified unto me, and I have been crucified unto the world. Notice that this was not by His Freewill, or His act of believing and so forth, but by a Person, Christ and His Cross accomplishment and effect for him
Paul boasted about the powerful effects of Christ crucified, something that is non existent in our day of Apostasy !
This is largely due to the God Given Faith each person that Christ died for will receive by from the Holy Spirit at New Birth and this is overcoming Faith of the world 1 Jn 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
This Faith is an effect of the Cross to all whom Christ died and imparts His Victory to !
Gal 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.86
Paul makes a Christ Glorifying statement here about the Cross of Christ, One of it's many accomplishments and effects to them He died for. He states "by whom " meaning Christ, His Work, the world is crucified unto me, and I have been crucified unto the world. Notice that this was not by His Freewill, or His act of believing and so forth, but by a Person, Christ and His Cross accomplishment and effect for him
Paul boasted about the powerful effects of Christ crucified, something that is non existent in our day of Apostasy !
Paul is saying that the entire world system in all its Glory, but in opposition to God, is dead or destroyed in it's power to attract him; it has no influence or power over Paul, no appeal to him .And I to the world. Paul is similarly dead to the desires and attractions of the world, for he serves Christ as his new Master ESV Note on Gal 6:14
This is largely due to the God Given Faith each person that Christ died for will receive by from the Holy Spirit at New Birth and this is overcoming Faith of the world 1 Jn 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
This Faith is an effect of the Cross to all whom Christ died and imparts His Victory to !
Would you like to discuss one of these atonement accomplishes that Im witnessing to from the scripture ?
You still not paying attention are you ? You are just contending at each juncture !
One of the subtleties is to make conditions out of Gods purposes and promises. Thats handling Gods word deceitfully !God's Word is true. Just leave it at that.
You just could not let God's Word stand as written
Again, God's Word is true. Stick to what is written.
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
I dont think so.
I am seeing universalism.
In any case, not forthright in his presentation
Bf 52 reply
" read the thread"
The bible;
" be prepared always to give an account of the hope that is within you."
Conclusion;
Anyone genuinely born again loves to express their new walk with Jesus
Ahem....it is called a profession of faith.
.....that means slippery crafty answers are a red flag....big time.
Even a babe in christ would be plain as day as to what they believe and not be afraid to PROFESS IT....COMPLETE WITH WHY THEY BELIEVE XYZ IS INCORRECT.
I am "paying attention", brightfame52.
Yes contending as instructed in Scripture:brightfame52 said:
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you ofthe common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Here is what you are doing, brightfame52:
Throughout the pages of this thread, you have used the phrase "those that Christ died for" (or words to that effect) and then claim certain promises from Scripture. As an example, in Post #363 your claim is that "those that Christ died for" have been "delivered from the wrath to come" (1 Thess 1:10).
Throughout the pages of this thread, I have provided Scripture which indicates the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world.
Since we know that there are some from "the whole world" who will not be "delivered from the wrath to come", your statement that "those that Christ died for" conflicts with Scripture.
Your understanding of Scripture is crumbling because you rely on a foundation other than the chief corner and you end up stumbling.
Then stop making conditions so you do not deceitfully handle the Word of God.
yes ... brightfame52 does tend to obfuscate ... especially when Scripture is introduced which does not comport to brightfame52's dogma.
hope/pray all is well with you ...
More on Gal 6:14 What do you Glory in ?
Gal 6:14
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
The word Glory here is the greek word kauchaomai:
to glory (whether with reason or without)
2) to glory on account of a thing
3) to glory in a thing
It also is translated boast 2 Cor 7:14 or rejoice Phil 3:3
What do you and i boast in today ? How many of us truly boast or Glory in the Cross of Jesus Christ, His Person and Work and it's saving effects which are everlasting !
What I have observed of many of us is that we Glory not in The Person and Work of Christ and His Saving accomplishments for those He died, but in the flesh. Some of us by the teaching of the freewill of man, others by our ethnicity, particularly ethnic jews. Yes ethnicity is of the flesh, and Paul stated this about having confidence in the flesh Phil 3:3-6
3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless
Notice what Paul calls confidence and trust in the flesh in vs 5
#1 Circumcised the eighth day [flesh]
#2 Being of the Tribe of Benjamin [flesh]
#3 Of the people of Israel [flesh see Rom 9:8]
#4 being a hebrew of Hebrews [flesh]
#5 being a pharisee [flesh]
Remember what Jesus told a well established pharisee of highest rank Jn 3:6
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
#6 Religious zeal in vs 6 all religious zeal apart from a Spiritual Revelation of the Gospel is of the flesh !
#7 Good reputation for religion before men, being blameless before men in the sight of men without Gospel revelation is [the flesh]
Paul thought being circumcised as a full blooded jew, of the tribe of Benjamin, was a gain to him, the word gain is the greek word kerdos
and means advantage.
He thought being an ethnic jew gave him advantage before God over other people who were not jewish. He thought it gave him advantage in having a relationship with God and salvation !
Many today think by being a ethnic jew that its an advantage, that it ensures special favor with God, even Salvation favor, this is confidence in the flesh, boasting in the flesh, no way around it !
That word confidence as confidence in the flesh Phil 3:3 also means trust, trusting in the flesh.
Like the Pharisee Lk 18:9, this Pharisee would have trusted in the same things Paul did in Phil 3:5-6 and thats nothing more than trusting in ourselves, idolatry !
What is our Glory today ?
Gal 6:14
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
The word Glory here is the greek word kauchaomai:
to glory (whether with reason or without)
2) to glory on account of a thing
3) to glory in a thing
It also is translated boast 2 Cor 7:14 or rejoice Phil 3:3
What do you and i boast in today ? How many of us truly boast or Glory in the Cross of Jesus Christ, His Person and Work and it's saving effects which are everlasting !
What I have observed of many of us is that we Glory not in The Person and Work of Christ and His Saving accomplishments for those He died, but in the flesh. Some of us by the teaching of the freewill of man, others by our ethnicity, particularly ethnic jews. Yes ethnicity is of the flesh, and Paul stated this about having confidence in the flesh Phil 3:3-6
3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless
Notice what Paul calls confidence and trust in the flesh in vs 5
#1 Circumcised the eighth day [flesh]
#2 Being of the Tribe of Benjamin [flesh]
#3 Of the people of Israel [flesh see Rom 9:8]
#4 being a hebrew of Hebrews [flesh]
#5 being a pharisee [flesh]
Remember what Jesus told a well established pharisee of highest rank Jn 3:6
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
#6 Religious zeal in vs 6 all religious zeal apart from a Spiritual Revelation of the Gospel is of the flesh !
#7 Good reputation for religion before men, being blameless before men in the sight of men without Gospel revelation is [the flesh]
Paul thought being circumcised as a full blooded jew, of the tribe of Benjamin, was a gain to him, the word gain is the greek word kerdos
and means advantage.
He thought being an ethnic jew gave him advantage before God over other people who were not jewish. He thought it gave him advantage in having a relationship with God and salvation !
Many today think by being a ethnic jew that its an advantage, that it ensures special favor with God, even Salvation favor, this is confidence in the flesh, boasting in the flesh, no way around it !
That word confidence as confidence in the flesh Phil 3:3 also means trust, trusting in the flesh.
Like the Pharisee Lk 18:9, this Pharisee would have trusted in the same things Paul did in Phil 3:5-6 and thats nothing more than trusting in ourselves, idolatry !
What is our Glory today ?
From HELPS Word-studies:
2744 kauxáomai – properly, living with "head up high," i.e. boasting from a particular vantage point by having the right base of operation to deal successfully with a matter (see WP at 2 Cor 5:12).
[2744 (kauxáomai) likely comes from the root, auχēn ("neck"), i.e. what holds the head up high (upright); figuratively, it refers to living with God-given confidence.
The high level of personal (self) interest motivating this boasting (kauχ-) accounts for why it is always in the Greek middle voice.]
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy [Greek=kauxáomai] in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received [Greek=lambanō] the atonement.brightfame52 said:
Christ Promised success !
John 12:31-33
31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Also Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Christ by His Death, His Work, ensures the Faith and Repentance [conversion] of all He died for, else He lied when He promised:
"And I, if I be lifted up[His Cross] from the earth, will draw all men unto me".
This said signifying what death [and effects] He should die, meaning He witnessed to the saving and converting effects it should have, which was foretold in Isa 53:10-11
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Meaning He shall see the success and good issue of His Finished Work and see it convert sinners to God ! David wrote once Ps 51:13
Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Those He shall draw unto Himself because of His Death or having been lifted up from the Earth, are His Offspring Isa 53:10, and He shall see them return to God, and be satisfied. Peter preached this saving effect of Christ Death here 1 Pet 2:24-2588
24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
So Isa 53:10-11; Jn 12:31-33, and 1 Pet 2:24-25, all proclaim the same blessed Saving Truth of the Effects of Christ's Finished Saving Work of the Cross, anything different is a false gospel !
John 12:31-33
31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Also Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Christ by His Death, His Work, ensures the Faith and Repentance [conversion] of all He died for, else He lied when He promised:
"And I, if I be lifted up[His Cross] from the earth, will draw all men unto me".
This said signifying what death [and effects] He should die, meaning He witnessed to the saving and converting effects it should have, which was foretold in Isa 53:10-11
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Meaning He shall see the success and good issue of His Finished Work and see it convert sinners to God ! David wrote once Ps 51:13
Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Those He shall draw unto Himself because of His Death or having been lifted up from the Earth, are His Offspring Isa 53:10, and He shall see them return to God, and be satisfied. Peter preached this saving effect of Christ Death here 1 Pet 2:24-2588
24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
So Isa 53:10-11; Jn 12:31-33, and 1 Pet 2:24-25, all proclaim the same blessed Saving Truth of the Effects of Christ's Finished Saving Work of the Cross, anything different is a false gospel !