Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

[AandW]

No you've got that all wrong.

It is well documented that the Christians DID in fact flee Jerusalem when they saw the armies taking position around the city. There was a several months long lull in the siege when word came to Vespasian that Nero died. Vespasian then siezed the throne. Afterward he ordered his son Titus, along with the 5th, 10th, 12th and 15th Legions to complete this siege.

Rumor has it that not one single solitary Christian died in Jerusalem due to the siege.
BTW.........many Jews also fled before the season began in earnest.

I did some reading on this and this is actually fascinating.
Basically, what Josephus claimed, was the Christians held onto Matthew 24:16-20 and did as Christ had prophesied.

But that also means, had the Christians not followed Matthew 24:16-20, they would have been slaughtered.

But that again means, when we see the signs, we need to go into hiding. It does not claim a pre-trib rapture, but we must go into hiding. That's a big difference to have to go into hiding VERSUS being raptured.

 

[AandW]

Not I, nor those who understand that God's wrath has already been satisfied by the Lord on our behalf.

The temple was destroyed because Israel did not recognize the time of their visitation. Based on that, why would God pour out His wrath on His church who already believes in Him and is watching and anticipating His return? Your claims are ridiculous! The Lord is not going to put His church through His wrath for being watchful and faithful.

"As Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it 42and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes. 43For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. 44They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God."

Why don't you actually set yourself to understanding the truth that we have been proclaiming to you on all of these Biblical subjects, instead of the continuous kneejerk reaction of rejecting everything?

Because of what Matthew 24 states:

I will answer you with same answer to cv5.

I did some reading on this and this is actually fascinating.
Basically, what Josephus claimed, was the Christians held onto Matthew 24:16-20 and did as Christ had prophesied.

But that also means, had the Christians not followed Matthew 24:16-20, they would have been slaughtered.

But that again means, when we see the signs, we need to go into hiding. It does not claim a pre-trib rapture, but we must go into hiding. That's a big difference to have to go into hiding VERSUS being raptured.

 

[Ruby123]

I dont believe that Jesus took the punishment for our sins on the cross only to put us through torture by letting us go through the tribulation.
It almost seems like people want to go through it thinking that somehow it would make them worthy. Well it wont, going through millions of great tribulations still wont make you worthy, only Jesus could could achieve that for us.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I agree with your understanding. Here we have an [entire] chapter in Matthew dedicated to Tribulations, and we know the first one was horrendous and deaths were like swatting flies all over the place for both Jew and Christian, but some how there is a belief it won't happen to us.

The coolaide is good evidently!

So, you think that demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss to torment human beings, four angels and their army of 200 million demonic beings killing a third of mankind, a third of the earth and trees being burned up, etc., are common trials and tribulations? These are the coming plagues of wrath that we, the church, are not appointed to suffer and which will be taking place during that time leading up to the Lord's return to end the age. If you think that the Lord is going to put His bride through those plagues of wrath previously mentioned, you do not know the nature of God.

I continue to say it and I'll say it again, the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would experience as a result of our faith are not the same as the plagues of wrath that take place during the tribulation period. This is why I keep telling you and others that you need to do a deeper study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The church is not appointed to suffer those.

 

[Ogom]

Glen,

It is never a good idea to take a passage out of context in order to prove a point. Ask yourself some critical questions to see why it is out of context.

1. When was this said?
2. To whom was it said?
3. Why was it said?
4. How does it nullify other prophecies?
5. What was the reason for Gabriel's prophecy in Daniel?
6. How does Daniel tie into Revelation (and other prophecies)?

it is not always a good idea to decide we know for sure what the Bible means. elsewise God (the Spirit) cannot reach us in that area of thought/thinking to let us know how wrong we might be. we will argue right back when a message/ and or messenger speaks and the Spirit will not reach us with more truth.


try these instead:

1. what did the Spirit mean when it was said/ or written?
2. is it from the Spirit or from the "lying pen of the Scribes"?
3. what would the Spirit (God) have me learn from this?
4. am i seeing with help of the Spirit or only/ too much my own mind/ logic /thinking patterns?
5. have i drawn close enough to God/Spirit to learn the truth on this matter, or am i not following Christ enough to hear truly/ more truly?
6. will i open my mind to the Spirit to learn this day truth that i might not yet know -- but God knows (all and more than us 1 Cor 13) and can reveal it all to the open and more innocent mind (Matt 18:3)...?


9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

 

[cv5]

God is not the author of arguments circleing and endless configuration back and forth, i concur. Jesus -- the Way. the Way to what? to Truth. and Life. the more one follows and seeks Spirit and Truth over the world and darkness, the more one finds Life -- on the road (Way) of Truth, and Life -- Christ in us -- the hope that grows by following -- Truth.

not by configuring endlesss arguments that may or may not raise a person up towards Christ -- the Way -- to Truth. truth, Real Truth comes with help of the Spirit, not endless speculations and arguments brought forth with over- much use of our own mind power -- without enough help also -- from God (Spirit).

New Testament writings are in large part devoted to debunking and deposing heresies. So should we today. These fuzzy-wuzzy cuddly brotherhood arguments may have good intentions, but are ineffective in that regard.

 

[cv5]

it is not always a good idea to decide we know for sure what the Bible means. elsewise God (the Spirit) cannot reach us in that area of thought/thinking to let us know how wrong we might be. we will argue right back when a message/ and or messenger speaks and the Spirit will not reach us with more truth.


try these instead:

1. what did the Spirit mean when it was said/ or written?
2. is it from the Spirit or from the "lying pen of the Scribes"?
3. what would the Spirit (God) have me learn from this?
4. am i seeing with help of the Spirit or only/ too much my own mind/ logic /thinking patterns?
5. have i drawn close enough to God/Spirit to learn the truth on this matter, or am i not following Christ enough to hear truly/ more truly?
6. will i open my mind to the Spirit to learn this day truth that i might not yet know -- but God knows (all and more than us 1 Cor 13) and can reveal it all to the open and more innocent mind (Matt 18:3)...?


9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Likewise the discerning mind closes itself when necessary.

 

[AandW]

So, you think that demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss to torment human beings, four angels and their army of 200 million demonic beings killing a third of mankind, a third of the earth and trees being burned up, etc., are common trials and tribulations? These are the coming plagues of wrath that we, the church, are not appointed to suffer and which will be taking place during that time leading up to the Lord's return to end the age. If you think that the Lord is going to put His bride through those plagues of wrath previously mentioned, you do not know the nature of God.

I continue to say it and I'll say it again, the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would experience as a result of our faith are not the same as the plagues of wrath that take place during the tribulation period. This is why I keep telling you and others that you need to do a deeper study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The church is not appointed to suffer those.

Believers won't be tormented. We will be hidden like those Christians in 70 A.D. were. But like 70 A.D., had they [not hid] they would have suffered. The [same] will be for Believers during our time Tribulation.

 

[AandW]

I dont believe that Jesus took the punishment for our sins on the cross only to put us through torture by letting us go through the tribulation.
It almost seems like people want to go through it thinking that somehow it would make them worthy. Well it wont, going through millions of great tribulations still wont make you worthy, only Jesus could could achieve that for us.

And still, we know for a fact that if the Christians in 70 A.D.'s Tribulation [did not hide], they would have been killed by the Romans like the other Jews. God did not [SPARE them], they had to HIDE to be spared!

The same is for us today.

 

[AandW]

And still, we know for a fact that if the Christians in 70 A.D.'s Tribulation [did not hide], they would have been killed by the Romans like the other Jews. God did not [SPARE them], they had to HIDE to be spared!

The same is for us today.

I notice NO ONE was ever considering this^

If God DID NOT SPARE the Christians of 70 A.D.'s Tribulation, He directed them to HIDE [meaning if they did not HIDE they would be slaughtered], God is not going to do a Pre-Trib Rapture for us. He is directing us to HIDE [meaning we will go through the Tribulation and ONLY BE SPARED if we HIDE]!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Matthew 24 "16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"



Okay, so now you're suggesting that WE ARE "them which be in Judaea" ??

(and I believe this verse connects with Rev12:6,14 "FLED / FLY" re: "the woman"... but WE are not this "woman")




[P.S. I've already mentioned how Lk21:36 is "instruction" for those finding themselves IN the [7] Trib yrs... so that if they "heed" this "instruction" will have "strength" to FLEE-OUT-OF each and every thing coming upon the earth (IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs), and to "stand before" the Son of man (His Second Coming to the earth designation)--so there's that, too...]

 

[AandW]

^ Matthew 24 "16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"



Okay, so now you're suggesting that WE ARE "them which be in Judaea" ??

(and I believe this verse connects with Rev12:6,14 "FLED / FLY" re: "the woman"... but WE are not this "woman")




[P.S. I've already mentioned how Lk21:36 is "instruction" for those finding themselves IN the [7] Trib yrs... so that if they "heed" this "instruction" will have "strength" to FLEE-OUT-OF each and every thing coming upon the earth (IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs), and to "stand before" the Son of man (His Second Coming to the earth designation)--so there's that, too...]

No, I am mentioning for you who believe God is going to remove us from this Tribulation, He did not remove the Christians during their 70 A.D. Tribulation. If God is the [SAME] yesterday/today/forever, He is not going to remove us during our Tribulation.

God is the God of [COMMON SENSE]!
Humans however, are not all equipped with Common Sense.
That is evident in some of these pre-trib rapture Doctrines.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I notice NO ONE was ever considering this^

If God DID NOT SPARE the Christians of 70 A.D.'s Tribulation, He directed them to HIDE [meaning if they did not HIDE they would be slaughtered], God is not going to do a Pre-Trib Rapture for us. He is directing us to HIDE [meaning we will go through the Tribulation and ONLY BE SPARED if we HIDE]!

The destruction of the temple in 70 AD was not against Christians, but against unbelieving Israel, because they did not recognize the day of their visitation, which Jesus states as the reason.

For those who believe, they have been credited with the Lord's righteousness and have been reconciled to God and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe.

You have no understanding of end-time events and shouldn't be teaching on these things. Understand then, because of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the fact that these plagues of wrath will come upon the whole inhabited earth, there will be no place to hide. The church wouldn't last very long, because the only way to be able to perform any kind of financial transaction (buying and selling) will be by receiving the mark of the beast.

Where's the church gonna hide when those demonic beings are released from the Abyss to sting the inhabitants of the earth?

Where is the church gonna hide when those four angels are released and kill a third of mankind with their army of 200 million fallen angels?

Where is the church gonna hide when peace is taken from the earth so that men kill each other?

Where is the church gonna hide when Death and Hades are given authority to kill a fourth of the earth's population?

Where is the church going to hide when the sun scorches the inhabitants of the earth, searing them with intense heat?

I could go on and on listing the rest of the plagues that will take place in Revelation, but you get my meaning, as there will be no place to hide. These will be unprecedented plagues of wrath directly from God, like nothing the world has every seen. It is these plagues of wrath that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer.

For all of you reading in the background, be comforted and assured that regardless of what this poster and others are claiming, if you belong to Christ, you will not be on the earth to be exposed to God's coming wrath during the tribulation. The Lord will fulfill His promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess.4:16-17 to come and gather us prior to said wrath, because it is not directed at those who belong to Christ, but to a Christ rejecting world. So just as Paul said after describing our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, comfort each other with these words and continue looking forward to this blessed hope.

 

[AandW]

The destruction of the temple in 70 AD was not against Christians, but against unbelieving Israel, because they did not recognize the day of their visitation, which Jesus states as the reason.

For those who believe, they have been credited with the Lord's righteousness and have been reconciled to God and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe.

You have no understanding of end-time events and shouldn't be teaching on these things. Understand then, because of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the fact that these plagues of wrath will come upon the whole inhabited earth, there will be no place to hide. The church wouldn't last very long, because the only way to be able to perform any kind of financial transaction (buying and selling) will be by receiving the mark of the beast.

Where's the church gonna hide when those demonic beings are released from the Abyss to sting the inhabitants of the earth?

Where is the church gonna hide when those four angels are released and kill a third of mankind with their army of 200 million fallen angels?

Where is the church gonna hide when peace is taken from the earth so that men kill each other?

Where is the church gonna hide when Death and Hades are given authority to kill a fourth of the earth's population?

Where is the church going to hide when the sun scorches the inhabitants of the earth, searing them?

I could go on and on listing the rest of the plagues that will take place in Revelation, but you get my meaning, as there will be no place to hide. These will be unprecedented plagues of wrath directly from God, like nothing the world has every seen. It is these plagues of wrath that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer.

For all of you reading in the background, be comforted and assured that regardless of what this poster and others are claiming, if you belong to Christ, you will not be on the earth to be exposed to God's coming wrath during the tribulation. The Lord will fulfill His promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess.4:16-17 to come and gather us prior to said wrath, because it is not directed at those who belong to Christ, but to a Christ rejecting world. So just as Paul said after describing our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, comfort each other with these words and continue looking forward to this blessed hope.

The final Tribulation will not be against Christians but the Jews just like 70 A.D.
No matter what you suggest is different today is actually not.
And had the Christians in 70 A.D. not hid themselves, they would have been killed.
So God WARNED them and gave them an escape route, but He did not spare them, nor would He have spared them had they not listened to His Warning.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The final Tribulation will not be against Christians but the Jews just like 70 A.D.
No matter what you suggest is different today is actually not.
And had the Christians in 70 A.D. not hid themselves, they would have been killed.
So God WARNED them and gave them an escape route, but He did not spare them, nor would He have spared them had they not listened to His Warning.

You are not understanding! The plagues of wrath that will be unleashed during that time will be upon the whole world! There will be no place to hide. There will be no escape routes! These plagues that are coming will be unprecedented. Reread those plagues that I listed and answer the question "where is the church going to hide?" The answer is that there will be no where to hide which is why the Lord is removing us. And you continue to ignore the fact that Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, which is why we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

Where Paul said "comfort each other with these words" you are doing the opposite by your teaching, for there will be no comfort during that time of wrath. Instead of recognizing our status in Christ, you put us on the same level as the unbelieving wicked, which is who the tribulation is for.

 

[AandW]

You are not understanding! The plagues of wrath that will be unleashed during that time will be upon the whole world! There will be no place to hide. There will be no escape routes! These plagues that are coming will be unprecedented. Reread those plagues that I listed and answer the question "where is the church going to hide?" The answer is that there will be no where to hide which is why the Lord is removing us. And you continue to ignore the fact that Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, which is why we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

Where Paul said "comfort each other with these words" you are doing the opposite by your teaching, for there will be no comfort during that time of wrath. Instead of recognizing our status in Christ, you put us on the same level as the unbelieving wicked, which is who the tribulation is for.

Nowhere does it say those plagues will happen to Christians, NOWHERE!

You act like Satan will be able to do as he pleases like the Hedge of God will be removed from us.

If that were to happen, God would be a Liar!

 

[Ahwatukee]

The final Tribulation will not be against Christians but the Jews just like 70 A.D.
No matter what you suggest is different today is actually not.
And had the Christians in 70 A.D. not hid themselves, they would have been killed.
So God WARNED them and gave them an escape route, but He did not spare them, nor would He have spared them had they not listened to His Warning.

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.”

The scripture above is the Lord's promise to come back and take His church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. He says to us, "Do not let your hearts be troubled." Our hearts would certainly be troubled if our gathering was to take place after God's wrath, which is what you are teaching. You have God punishing the righteous with the wicked and that is not God's nature.

In writing to Titus, Paul called the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him the "Blessed Hope." It would be no blessed hope if we were to first go through God's wrath!

Stop teaching these things!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You act like Satan will be able to do as he pleases like the Hedge of God will be removed from us.

Rev13:5-7[1] connects with Dan7:20-25[27] where both passages speak about: "made war with the saints, AND PREVAILED AGAINST THEM"


[note Matt16:18, in this light]


[again, these are "saints" (in Rev13:5-7 and Dan7:20-25 ^^ ) having come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN those "[7] Trib yrs" (FOLLOWING "our Rapture" event--The "Rapture" of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved 'in this present age [singular]'] of whom the "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" SOLELY pertains... It does not pertain to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods); This is a matter of "WHEN" ppl (have or will have) come to faith (as opposed to any sort of superiority issues), that is, relating to the "CHRONOLOGY" issues spelled out in Scripture itself--You and I are not "OT saints," for example... because we did not live back then, nor come to faith during that time-frame ]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Nowhere does it say those plagues will happen to Christians, NOWHERE!

You act like Satan will be able to do as he pleases like the Hedge of God will be removed from us.

If that were to happen, God would be a Liar!

You are correct, for the word Church is never even mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath. But as I said, since those plagues of wrath will affect every person in the whole world, scripture wouldn't have to say that those plagues will not happen to Christians, because according to you, they would be on the earth as well and therefore exposed to those plagues. Everyone on the earth during the tribulation period will be affected.

By the way, Satan is not the one who will be responsible for the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, God is.

This is what you are not understanding! Jesus as the Lamb is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets and followed by the bowl judgments. It is God's holy angels that are blowing the trumpets and pouring out the bowl judgments by God's command, not Satan. God will be using Satan and the powers of darkness for His purpose during the time of His wrath.

Have you ever given any thought as to why the word ekklesia translated as church is used 19 times within chapters 1 thru 3 and then disappears after the end of chapter 3? It's not a coincidence, but a God-given clue, i.e. the church is gone.

 

[cv5]

The final Tribulation will not be against Christians but the Jews just like 70 A.D.
No matter what you suggest is different today is actually not.
And had the Christians in 70 A.D. not hid themselves, they would have been killed.
So God WARNED them and gave them an escape route, but He did not spare them, nor would He have spared them had they not listened to His Warning.

First of all according to you the tribulation has ended in 70 A.D.
You have stated over and over and over again that Matthew 24 was fully realized in 70 A.D.

Secondly, what's your opinion of Rev 12:14? Do you think that group are Christians who have fled the Tribulation? I mean according to your theory it can't possibly be Israelites.