Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

[TheDivineWatermark]

@OldSage , what are you suggesting that v.12's "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" is in reference to (WHAT is it the writer is saying must come PRIOR TO *what other things*... in this chpt)??

 

[AandW]

How can Luke 21:25 mean "here is where we are now"? That would be really stretching it. Luke 21 and Mark 13 must be coordinated with Matthew 24, and what we read in verse 25 here is events AFTER the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:29).

There is a sequence of events in the Olivet Discourse stretching from the first coming of Christ all the way to His second coming, and beyond. And the first five seals of Revelation were operative from the 1st century but continue to intensify to this day. But there is no mention of the Resurrection/Rapture in this passage.

Because Daniel's Prophecy said this would happen to the Jews and to their Sanctuary. The Great Tribulation is a Prophecy for the Jews only. Nowhere in Matthew-Mark-Luke does it state this happens to the Gentiles. But it states the Gentile Reign, which happened after 70 A.D. Ever since then till 1948, the Gentiles have Reigned over Israel.

 

[AandW]

There still was no AOD

And you also have to remember. Your looking back. They most Likely Did Not see it the way you do

You understand that within the Holy Temple is the Outer Court, the Inner Court, and then finally the Holy of Hollies.
You understand that [ONLY] a Levitcal Priest, the High Priest, is the ONLY ONE allowed to ever into the Holy of Hollies.
When the Temple was seized and those inside the Temple were either captured or murdered, there is no doubt Romans entered the Holy of Hollies.
That my Friend is an Abomination!

 

[Yahshua]

it doesn't say all Israel though, it says "one from a city and two from a family".
It says in the time when there was no ark of the covenant, which allows us
to understand that this is the second temple period.

If you read Ezra and Nehemiah, it is clear that they had to clean up their act
and become fully law observant, which they did.

But to one of your original points; if we're saying a remnant of Israel returned to the land, then THEY were the obedient/remarried ones (not the ones who didn't return). OK, so then if this is true let's assume the 2nd temple period remnant cleaned up their act per Ezra and Nehemiah and became fully law observant...the portion in Jeremiah says "no more will they" (those who return to the land) "be stubborn and follow their evil hearts" once there. So when descendants of those same people rejected the Messiah that act contradicted the Almighty's prophecy here.

Also, portion in the prophecy says "all the nations will flow to Jerusalem to honor the name of the LORD" at that time. This part of the prophecy is also contradicted by the events of the 1st century as no nations gathered to honor the Almighty or the Messiah.

The "there was no ark of the covenant" portion is true of the remnant of the 2nd temple period...but so would it be true for Israel that returns to Jerusalem when the Messiah comes in the future.

-----

Those who returned during the 2nd temple period simply don't fit Jeremiah's prophecy.

I think the throne of David was eternal from when David reigned though Yahshua.
When we come to the last King Of Judea, who Nebuchadnezzar finally removes, we see
Nebuchadnezzar then operates in the function of the throne of David, as he is the King of Kings, (Daniel 2).

Hmm...

I'm sorry sir Sage, but I just can't agree with this for the following reason:

If we say David's throne became eternal through Messiah then that means BEFORE Messiah it wasn't eternal...and if not eternal, then - again - how can the kingdom of Israel exist prior to Messiah?

If we're saying that Neb began operating in the function of David's throne after the captivity (again before the Messiah), then the promise that DAVID would always have a heir - his seed - on the throne is now contradicted also. If we try to force-fit Neb then we can make a case for ANYONE fulfilling the promise made to David such as the Medo-Persian rulers who conquered Babylon...to Alexander from Macedonia who conquered them...down to the Caesars of Rome. See what I mean?

[In fact, that's what all of the Merovingian and other European monarchs of medieval times attempted to argue; that they were descendants of King David also. Even today's Queen Elizabeth tries to make this argument by tracing her throne back to David's.]

No, it must be David's seed...from his loins...on Israel's throne.

This is why it only seems reasonable to say (as a fulfillment of Almighty's promise) that "as long as the throne of Israel exists, David's seed will sit on it. That is, as long as the throne exists." It's not reasonable to say "David's throne of Israel, and thus Israel, has always existed through other kings not from David".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

the AoD to which
you and TDW refer in Daniel 12 has occurred by or before AD73, when the 70th week concluded and the Israelites had been scattered, as everything else prophesied in Daniel will be finished then.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So you're suggesting that Daniel "stand in thy lot at the end of the days" in [/by] 73ad?? (v.13... parallel the same time-period mentioned in 7:25[27], thus involving also the person / "another [king]" of Dan7:8,20,21,24, etc...??)

 

[AandW]

I would like to see if anyone can show me Scripture that the audience [Jews] Christ is speaking to in Matthew (24), Mark (15), Luke (21) where Christ says this Great Tribulation happens to the Gentiles?

You can take 25 years if you like.

It's not in there!

Nowhere does it say the Great Tribulation happens to the Gentiles, NOWHERE!

That's why the Pre-Trib Rapture is the BIGGEST LIE ever told after Satan deceived Eve!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @AandW , Matthew 24 and 25 are all of the SAME discourse.

The "ye" of Matthew 24 is a CONSISTENT "ye" and a "proleptic 'ye'," ... referring to "all those in the future, of the SAME CATEGORY" (i.e. THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised--aka, to the believing remnant of Israel);

Matt25:31-34 and context, refers to "the Sheep and goats" of the NATIONS [PLURAL] (i.e. the Gentiles), whom the believing remnant of Israel will be "INVITING TO" the earthly MK age (aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" on the earth, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth)--the believing remnant of Israel being who WILL be the ones preaching the Matt24:14 [/26:13] msg IN / DURING / WITHIN the future [7]Trib yrs [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], and who Matt25:40,45 is referencing by the phrase "the least of these My brethren," who are not the ones BEING "judged / separated" in this context / passage.

 

[AandW]

BUT,

If we understand that Luke 21:
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
^
Ended in 1948




We now understand that Luke 21:
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
^
Is Currently Happening



Which means that Luke 21:
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
^
Can happen at any second now!

 

[AandW]

^ Matthew 24 and 25 are all of the SAME discourse.

The "ye" of Matthew 24 is a CONSISTENT and a "proleptic 'ye'," referring to "all those in the future, of the SAME CATEGORY" (i.e. THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised--aka to the believing remnant of Israel);

Matt25:31-34 and context, refers to "the Sheep and goats" of the NATIONS [PLURAL] (i.e. the Gentiles), whom the believing remnant of Israel will be "INVITING TO" the earthly MK age (aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" on the earth)--the believing remnant of Israel being who WILL be preaching the Matt24:14 [/26:13] msg IN / DURING / WITHIN the future Trib yrs, and who Matt25:40,45 is referencing by the phrase "the least of these My brethren," who are not the ones BEING "judged / separated" in this context / passage.

You just said in another Post that Matthew and Luke speak of 2 Events but now want to group everyone together.
You have lost the privilege to take what you post as truth!

 

[AandW]

Matthew 24 states people of Judea will run for the hills, be murdered, see destruction and this is Great Tribulation.

Which one of us Gentiles lives in Judea so it applies to the Gentiles?


16 Then let [[[[[[[them which be in Judaea]]]]]]] flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You understand that within the Holy Temple is the Outer Court, the Inner Court, and then finally the Holy of Hollies.
You understand that [ONLY] a Levitcal Priest, the High Priest, is the ONLY ONE allowed to ever into the Holy of Hollies.
When the Temple was seized and those inside the Temple were either captured or murdered, there is no doubt Romans entered the Holy of Hollies.
That my Friend is an Abomination!

jesus did not say the entered

he said when you see the abomination of desolation standing there

you may have a few possibilities. But in order for it to be fulfilled, you need it all

i don‘t base prophetic interpretation or fulfillment only because a few things may be true

i need to see them all

you do what you want

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[continuing my last post]

"[the] GREAT tribulation" (Matt24:15,21 [Rev7:14]) is not to be conflated with "and GREAT DISTRESS *in the land* and wrath upon *this people*" (Lk21:23,20--speaking of the events of 70ad [re: Israel]); they are DISTINCT.

 

[AandW]

Matthew 24 states people of Judea will run for the hills, be murdered, see destruction and this is Great Tribulation.

Which one of us Gentiles lives in Judea so it applies to the Gentiles?


16 Then let [[[[[[[them which be in Judaea]]]]]]] flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Great Tribulation applies to those in Judea!

So which of us Gentiles live in Judea if this is about Gentiles?

 

[AandW]

[continuing my last post]

"[the] GREAT tribulation" (Matt24:15,21 [Rev7:14]) is not to be conflated with "and GREAT DISTRESS *in the land* and wrath upon *this people*" (Lk21:23,20--speaking of the events of 70ad [re: Israel]); they are DISTINCT.

Jesus told us the people who will suffer, those in JUDEA!

Are you calling Christ a Liar now?

 

[AandW]

[continuing my last post]

"[the] GREAT tribulation" (Matt24:15,21 [Rev7:14]) is not to be conflated with "and GREAT DISTRESS *in the land* and wrath upon *this people*" (Lk21:23,20--speaking of the events of 70ad [re: Israel]); they are DISTINCT.

Which piece of Land do you think Revelation speaks about. It does not say the WORLD, it said IN THE LAND! And in the LAND, would be JUDEANS!

Do you believe IN THE LAND equals the entire WORLD?

So look up land and Word in the Greek and you will see Land DOES NOT mean the World!

 

[AandW]

Land = γη = gi

World = κόσμος = kósmos

 

[Yahshua]

So you're suggesting that Daniel "stand in thy lot at the end of the days" in [/by] 73ad?? (v.13... parallel the same time-period mentioned in 7:25[27], thus involving also the person / "another [king]" of Dan7:8,20,21,24, etc...??)

Hey TDW,

No OldSage is saying the prophecy of 70 'sevens' is fulfilled by or before 73 AD. As stated in Dan 12, the purpose of the trouble was to scatter the people from Jerusalem (and into the nations). This is literally what Luke 21:24 says: "when you see the army get out!...the people will be killed...the people will be sent into all nations (this is the scattering)...Jerusalem will be trampled by gentiles (an abominable circumstance to Almighty's HOLY land)...until their time is finished".

The 70 'sevens' prophecy ends with the same thing: "destroy the city and sanctuary...in the end, desolations is determined". If we allow the chapter to define what "desolation" means, at the beginning of chapter 9 the connotation of "desolation" is "that Daniel's people are not in their homeland anymore"...says nothing about having gentiles there (as we know gentile transplants were allowed to tend to the land during Israel's & Judah's captivities).

 

[Yahshua]

[continuing my last post]

"[the] GREAT tribulation" (Matt24:15,21 [Rev7:14]) is not to be conflated with "and GREAT DISTRESS *in the land* and wrath upon *this people*" (Lk21:23,20--speaking of the events of 70ad [re: Israel]); they are DISTINCT.

Can you explain why these two things aren't linked? The people were ALWAYS linked to the land throughout biblical history, both in blessing and curse.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You just said in another Post that Matthew and Luke speak of 2 Events but now want to group everyone together.
You have lost the privilege to take what you post as truth!

I said, everything from Matthew 24:4 and following (thru 2 chpts) is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and describes the SEVEN YEAR TRIB yrs... But the "ye" of chpt 24 is a CONSISTENT "ye" and a "proleptic 'ye'" speaking of "THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised," i.e. the believing remnant of Israel, whereas the SHEEP and goats" OF THE NATIONS [PLURAL]" are not "of Israel," see... but in order for them to be called "ye BLESSED" (when Christ "RETURNS" to the earth) they must themselves have aided [aka "blessed"] "the least of these My brethren" (i.e. the believing remnant of Israel having carried forth [DURING THE TRIB YRS] the "INVITATION TO" the earthly MK age, aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER," commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19--those being "the GUESTS [PLURAL]" [meaning, the "BLESSED [/Sheep / the righteous]" who will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children...])

 

[cv5]

You understand that within the Holy Temple is the Outer Court, the Inner Court, and then finally the Holy of Hollies.
You understand that [ONLY] a Levitcal Priest, the High Priest, is the ONLY ONE allowed to ever into the Holy of Hollies.
When the Temple was seized and those inside the Temple were either captured or murdered, there is no doubt Romans entered the Holy of Hollies.
That my Friend is an Abomination!

That's not what Daniel the prophet says is THE Abomination of Desolation. But that's what you say it is. Who ya gonna believe?