Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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""". I think pre-trib rapture is a fine interpretation, but I have not seen any evidence that it is explicitly demonstrated in the texts to the exclusion of the opposing perspectives."""
Verses have no meaning if you can actually process the clear and decisive case laid out by the bible hounds and still make that statement.
What group of believers do you identify with?
Baptist
Pentecostal
Methodist
Etc
What group?
Lets see where this leads.
Verses have no meaning if you can actually process the clear and decisive case laid out by the bible hounds and still make that statement.
What group of believers do you identify with?
Baptist
Pentecostal
Methodist
Etc
What group?
Lets see where this leads.
FreeGrace2 said:
What "information"? No one has yet quoted any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
I absolutely DO reject your misunderstanding of those verses. There is NO context for the trib or rapture at all.
Jesus' words were said BEFORE He died. He was speaking of returning AFTER His death, which did occur. He did come back.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
My study Bible has this title at the beginning of ch 14: Jesus comforts His disciples
Jesus was comforting His disciples about where they would be when they died (v.2). Jesus said nothing about the Trib, or rapture, as you continue to presume.
The key is that v.3 says NOTHING about a rapture.
And that continues to be the problem for pretribbers. NO verses that show raptured people being taken to heaven.
Pretribers don't have the truth when it comes to the rapture. NO verses showing Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. And John 14:1-3 clearly doesn't either. But it's all you have. And it fails to support your claim.
Once again, there is NOTHING here about Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. Zero.
And, 2 Thess 2:1 DOES show the rapture occuring at the Second Advent. So who's denying the truth now?
Please take my challenge with the verse by quoting it and putting in ( ) what "coming" and "gathering" refers to.
No pretribber has done that.
The day that Paul is talking about is not the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. But is what follows, which is "The Day of the Lord" which is the time of God's wrath. Paul was saying that the proof that "The Day of the Lord" had already come is when the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
There is no challenge here:
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him"
1 Thessalonians 4:16 states that "the Lord himself will descend from heaven," which supported by the fact that in John 14:1-3 He said that He would come back to get us to take us back to the Father's house.
There are two elements there:
* The coming of our Lord Jesus
* Our being gathered to Him
When you read this, you must always keep in mind that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. No matter which way you slice it, by having the church gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God.
That last seven years of wrath are specific to God fulfilling that last seven years of the decree that was given to Israel and the pouring out His wrath on a wicked Christ rejecting world and not for those who have already believed in His Son. People try to cushion this by saying that God protects the church during the time of His wrath. Those who claim this have no idea of the severity and magnitude of said wrath, else they would not make that claim.
You still have not responded to the fact that Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14 shows the church/bride following the Lord out of heaven.
By your belief and teaching, you and others cannot be looking for the imminent return of the Lord, but for the completion of God's wrath first. Where we on the other hand, are looking for the imminent return of the Lord i.e. prior to God's wrath. If I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments like a road map, knowing that Jesus cannot return until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.
It is sad that you do not honor the Lord by recognizing that He satisfied God's wrath on our behalf and thereby teach that we go through it.[/QUOTE]
What "information"? No one has yet quoted any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
I absolutely DO reject your misunderstanding of those verses. There is NO context for the trib or rapture at all.
Jesus' words were said BEFORE He died. He was speaking of returning AFTER His death, which did occur. He did come back.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
My study Bible has this title at the beginning of ch 14: Jesus comforts His disciples
Jesus was comforting His disciples about where they would be when they died (v.2). Jesus said nothing about the Trib, or rapture, as you continue to presume.
The key is that v.3 says NOTHING about a rapture.
And that continues to be the problem for pretribbers. NO verses that show raptured people being taken to heaven.
Pretribers don't have the truth when it comes to the rapture. NO verses showing Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. And John 14:1-3 clearly doesn't either. But it's all you have. And it fails to support your claim.
Once again, there is NOTHING here about Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. Zero.
And, 2 Thess 2:1 DOES show the rapture occuring at the Second Advent. So who's denying the truth now?
Please take my challenge with the verse by quoting it and putting in ( ) what "coming" and "gathering" refers to.
No pretribber has done that.
The day that Paul is talking about is not the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. But is what follows, which is "The Day of the Lord" which is the time of God's wrath. Paul was saying that the proof that "The Day of the Lord" had already come is when the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
There is no challenge here:
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him"
1 Thessalonians 4:16 states that "the Lord himself will descend from heaven," which supported by the fact that in John 14:1-3 He said that He would come back to get us to take us back to the Father's house.
There are two elements there:
* The coming of our Lord Jesus
* Our being gathered to Him
When you read this, you must always keep in mind that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. No matter which way you slice it, by having the church gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God.
That last seven years of wrath are specific to God fulfilling that last seven years of the decree that was given to Israel and the pouring out His wrath on a wicked Christ rejecting world and not for those who have already believed in His Son. People try to cushion this by saying that God protects the church during the time of His wrath. Those who claim this have no idea of the severity and magnitude of said wrath, else they would not make that claim.
You still have not responded to the fact that Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14 shows the church/bride following the Lord out of heaven.
By your belief and teaching, you and others cannot be looking for the imminent return of the Lord, but for the completion of God's wrath first. Where we on the other hand, are looking for the imminent return of the Lord i.e. prior to God's wrath. If I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments like a road map, knowing that Jesus cannot return until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.
It is sad that you do not honor the Lord by recognizing that He satisfied God's wrath on our behalf and thereby teach that we go through it.[/QUOTE]
Exactly
Even in their great hope to place noah in their situation with the AC chasing them from cave to cave( in their minds), it fails miserably.
Noah was caught up over a mile into the heavens.
No AC ANYWHERE to be found.
No post flood snatching away/ deliverance/rapture/rescue/.....nothing post flood but a return to earth.
Hmmmmmm.....a return BACK TO EARTH postrib. No postrib deliverance...just a postrib return.
Hmmmmmm....kinda like in the pretrib rapture.
Even in their great hope to place noah in their situation with the AC chasing them from cave to cave( in their minds), it fails miserably.
Noah was caught up over a mile into the heavens.
No AC ANYWHERE to be found.
No post flood snatching away/ deliverance/rapture/rescue/.....nothing post flood but a return to earth.
Hmmmmmm.....a return BACK TO EARTH postrib. No postrib deliverance...just a postrib return.
Hmmmmmm....kinda like in the pretrib rapture.
Nuts. While editing my post #803, it "timed out" for editing.
So here's what I added to my response to Ahwatukee:
That's your total hang-up. Get over it. The israelites went "through the entire 10 plagues of Egypt" without a scratch, but you just can't imagine that God has a good enough aim to protect His own people during the Trib.
Words, words, words. Just explain what "coming" and "gathered" means in 2 Thess 2:1, if you can.
I have, and I'm happy to repeat myself. By the time of the Second Advent, MOST of the Bride (church age believers) are already IN heaven. Because they all died. There have been over 2,000 years of physical death of saints. Of course MOST of the church will already be IN heaven. Can you admit that?
The so-called "imminency" theory fails to consider the whole counsel of God. It's based on Jesus' words "I am coming soon". OK. But Peter also told us "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day". 2 Pet 3:8
Everyone agrees that there is a lot of figurative speech in Rev. So Jesus' words about coming soon can easily be understood as 2,000 years. So, with Peter's words, it appears that Jesus would be coming back in a "few days". That's soon.s
You choose to take Jesus' words literally when they don't have to be taken that way.
The sad thing is that when pretribbers alive when the Trib begins start to realize that it has, what will happen to their faith, since they are "all in" on the idea that God has promised to take them to heaven to miss the trib. One can only imagine.
otoh, if posttribbers have misunderstood Scripture and find themselves being gathered up and taken to heaven, our smiles will be just as big as yours, if not bigger.
For pretribbers who are beyond convinced the Bible teaches a pretrib rapture, when they find themselves IN the trib, what will their view of Scripture be then? Will they just shrug it off and say, "oh well, guess I was wrong"?
You think you are prepared by escaping the Trib. But you are totally UNPREPARED for what is coming.
So, you'd just shrug and admit that your view was totally unbiblical?
Why do you guys continue the FALLACY that God's wrath will hit His own people in a post trib rapture scenario? Don't trust His aim, huh.
Now, that's sad.
So here's what I added to my response to Ahwatukee:
That's your total hang-up. Get over it. The israelites went "through the entire 10 plagues of Egypt" without a scratch, but you just can't imagine that God has a good enough aim to protect His own people during the Trib.
Words, words, words. Just explain what "coming" and "gathered" means in 2 Thess 2:1, if you can.
I have, and I'm happy to repeat myself. By the time of the Second Advent, MOST of the Bride (church age believers) are already IN heaven. Because they all died. There have been over 2,000 years of physical death of saints. Of course MOST of the church will already be IN heaven. Can you admit that?
The so-called "imminency" theory fails to consider the whole counsel of God. It's based on Jesus' words "I am coming soon". OK. But Peter also told us "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day". 2 Pet 3:8
Everyone agrees that there is a lot of figurative speech in Rev. So Jesus' words about coming soon can easily be understood as 2,000 years. So, with Peter's words, it appears that Jesus would be coming back in a "few days". That's soon.s
You choose to take Jesus' words literally when they don't have to be taken that way.
The sad thing is that when pretribbers alive when the Trib begins start to realize that it has, what will happen to their faith, since they are "all in" on the idea that God has promised to take them to heaven to miss the trib. One can only imagine.
otoh, if posttribbers have misunderstood Scripture and find themselves being gathered up and taken to heaven, our smiles will be just as big as yours, if not bigger.
For pretribbers who are beyond convinced the Bible teaches a pretrib rapture, when they find themselves IN the trib, what will their view of Scripture be then? Will they just shrug it off and say, "oh well, guess I was wrong"?
You think you are prepared by escaping the Trib. But you are totally UNPREPARED for what is coming.
So, you'd just shrug and admit that your view was totally unbiblical?
Why do you guys continue the FALLACY that God's wrath will hit His own people in a post trib rapture scenario? Don't trust His aim, huh.
Now, that's sad.
"""That's your total hang-up. Get over it. The israelites went "through the entire 10 plagues of Egypt" without a scratch, but you just can't imagine that God has a good enough aim to protect His own people during the Trib."""
Interesting Jesus uses noah and lot and in the same breath says watch and be ready
Your analogy serves neither side of the debate unless you think you are delivered into severe testing. And wonder in the wilderness as punishment and be placed under animal sacrifice.
The rapture is not anything to do with moses.
Plus Jesus chose lot and noah
As the analogy
Interesting Jesus uses noah and lot and in the same breath says watch and be ready
Your analogy serves neither side of the debate unless you think you are delivered into severe testing. And wonder in the wilderness as punishment and be placed under animal sacrifice.
The rapture is not anything to do with moses.
Plus Jesus chose lot and noah
As the analogy
I don't believe there is a pre-trib rapture. I've looked everywhere you all said to look and I don't see it.
What I see is an image of a post-trib rapture described in the scriptures.
I don't have a preference for when the rapture is so I really don't have a bias here. For example, I wasn't raised in church being taught any particular eschatology. I didn't become a Christian and actually study the Bible until I was an adult. I let the Bible represent itself and I believe what I see. Show me a verse that proves pre-trib and I'll believe it. It's that simple to me.
Anyway, yeah if a prophet claims something that is not plainly revealed in the Bible, they could be a false prophet. The real test is if what the prophet said will come to pass actually happens exactly how the prophet said.
What I see is an image of a post-trib rapture described in the scriptures.
I don't have a preference for when the rapture is so I really don't have a bias here. For example, I wasn't raised in church being taught any particular eschatology. I didn't become a Christian and actually study the Bible until I was an adult. I let the Bible represent itself and I believe what I see. Show me a verse that proves pre-trib and I'll believe it. It's that simple to me.
Anyway, yeah if a prophet claims something that is not plainly revealed in the Bible, they could be a false prophet. The real test is if what the prophet said will come to pass actually happens exactly how the prophet said.
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Yep. You'd better be ready when it starts to rock and roll.
I haven't given an "analogy". I gave you history. That parallels the trib in a number of ways.
What you do with it is your business.
Nor Noah, nor Lot.
No, He didn't. Where did He include a pretrib rapture when He mentioned Noah or Lot?
His point was to be prepared for the Trib. Nothing about being removed from earth, which neither of your "examples" did.
So don't talk to me about analogies.
The 10 plagues of Egypt include plagues that very closely parallel some of the judgments during the Trib. And yet, God did NOT take any of the Israelites off the earth, which is what you need to have a correct "analogy" for some kind of pretrib rapture event.
God protected His people all the while the 10 plagues raged through Egypt.
I haven't given an "analogy". I gave you history. That parallels the trib in a number of ways.
What you do with it is your business.
Nor Noah, nor Lot.
No, He didn't. Where did He include a pretrib rapture when He mentioned Noah or Lot?
His point was to be prepared for the Trib. Nothing about being removed from earth, which neither of your "examples" did.
So don't talk to me about analogies.
The 10 plagues of Egypt include plagues that very closely parallel some of the judgments during the Trib. And yet, God did NOT take any of the Israelites off the earth, which is what you need to have a correct "analogy" for some kind of pretrib rapture event.
God protected His people all the while the 10 plagues raged through Egypt.
I don't have a preference for when the rapture is so I really don't have a bias here. For example, I wasn't raised in church being taught any particular eschatology. I didn't become a Christian and actually study the Bible until I was an adult. I let the Bible represent itself and I believe what I see. Show me a verse that proves pre-trib and I'll believe it. It's that simple to me.
But as an adult (not that many years ago) I was challenged to find verses that speak of Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. Hmm. Couldn't find any anywhere. If that idea was truth, at least the obviously rapture verses should have included that.
But, none do. Then I found a lot of verses that make it clear that the rapture is a Second Advent event.
To test a prophet, I do what the Bereans did to Paul. Acts 17:11
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I have been Christian for forty years and have suffered persecution, trial, and tribulation and even from my own disobedience created problems for me, yet NONE OF IT was the wrath to Come of God. As a military man I have seen persecution of those even by death as the Iraqi Christian were butchered by ISSI and the current POTUS who was VP then they did nothing.
The times are very much showing the coming of the Lord, Yet Jesus said as the times of Noah were eating and drinking they did this partied on up until Noah entered the Ark, then playtime was over the door was shut. God has made provision for far more than 8 souls in a Ark The Rapture when it happens those who are carnal Christians and half-baked cakes will have the most regret and many in the world will celebrate the removal of salt and light. Judgment begins at the House of God that is happening. Christians today are repenting and doing what they can to get their house in order and their family. those who harp on the Elect really are meaning the Select,
The times are very much showing the coming of the Lord, Yet Jesus said as the times of Noah were eating and drinking they did this partied on up until Noah entered the Ark, then playtime was over the door was shut. God has made provision for far more than 8 souls in a Ark The Rapture when it happens those who are carnal Christians and half-baked cakes will have the most regret and many in the world will celebrate the removal of salt and light. Judgment begins at the House of God that is happening. Christians today are repenting and doing what they can to get their house in order and their family. those who harp on the Elect really are meaning the Select,
the thing is both pretrib & post-trib Raptures have biblical support I will not attack the one I disagree with that is the difference. Because both are none essentials for salvation. So the church those of maturity accepts what is known as the doctrine of Imminence.
soon at any time. We are to live our life as Jesu is coming today and have the patience of 100 years or more.
Why? because there have been millions of Christian who have died and our life is just a vapor, we are to make the most of it for the Lord NOW! I know the Lord is coming soon every ounce of my spirit and word of God shouts HE is Coming!
My Job is to be at the MASTERWORK OCCUPYING Till HE comes. IF you are Pretrib, post or no rapture so be it, what are you doing for the Kingdom of God? because your very rapture can happen today and you can die and be out of this work in just a second.
Jesus was very Clear Go and preach to every creature making disciples. How is business?
soon at any time. We are to live our life as Jesu is coming today and have the patience of 100 years or more.
Why? because there have been millions of Christian who have died and our life is just a vapor, we are to make the most of it for the Lord NOW! I know the Lord is coming soon every ounce of my spirit and word of God shouts HE is Coming!
My Job is to be at the MASTERWORK OCCUPYING Till HE comes. IF you are Pretrib, post or no rapture so be it, what are you doing for the Kingdom of God? because your very rapture can happen today and you can die and be out of this work in just a second.
Jesus was very Clear Go and preach to every creature making disciples. How is business?
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Good answer. This should be the key in examining scripture...honestly considering and contemplating the scriptures without any preconceived bias.
Throughout my life, I have been taught many different theologies or doctrines from men/churches/denominations.
Lately, I have been examining the scriptures more closely (trying not to take any preconceived biases into account). It is alarming as to what I am finding. Seems I need to re-evaluate most of what I have been taught.
Throughout my life, I have been taught many different theologies or doctrines from men/churches/denominations.
Lately, I have been examining the scriptures more closely (trying not to take any preconceived biases into account). It is alarming as to what I am finding. Seems I need to re-evaluate most of what I have been taught.
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