predestination vs freewill
- Thread starter Ivon
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
(1 Corinthians 2:14) "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
I agree with the verse and that is why the Holy Spirit must convict / move an individuel to a point where they can accept the things of the Spirit of God..
I agree with the verse and that is why the Holy Spirit must convict / move an individuel to a point where they can accept the things of the Spirit of God..
If man has freewill and can of himself choose to do right and choose God what need for God to send His Son to die a shameful death?
Paul describes in Romans 7 how it was to be under the law but not saved.
"I do not understand my own actions for I do not do what I want but I do the very thing I hate" this describes the human will as in bondage and not free.
PROVE that you have freewill or can choose. decide that you will go from morning to night without sinning, lie down now and die and then decide to resurrect yourself. These two things bind man's will, sin and death.
And death is more than pointing yer toes up
The bible says that death has become our shepherd, our whole lives are governed by the need to stay alive, the nation's first duty is self defence and staying alive.
Jesus came to set us FREE from this twin bondage of sin and death ... it is a bit of an insult for us to say we were free all the time and could of ourselves choose to do the right.
Paul describes in Romans 7 how it was to be under the law but not saved.
"I do not understand my own actions for I do not do what I want but I do the very thing I hate" this describes the human will as in bondage and not free.
PROVE that you have freewill or can choose. decide that you will go from morning to night without sinning, lie down now and die and then decide to resurrect yourself. These two things bind man's will, sin and death.
And death is more than pointing yer toes up
The bible says that death has become our shepherd, our whole lives are governed by the need to stay alive, the nation's first duty is self defence and staying alive.
Jesus came to set us FREE from this twin bondage of sin and death ... it is a bit of an insult for us to say we were free all the time and could of ourselves choose to do the right.
-
1
- Show all
If a person has already been born again then why do they need convicting? They have already acknowledged they are a sinner needing the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ and have already believed Jesus and accepted the Atonement He secured on the cross..
You have the cart before the horses mate..
You have the cart before the horses mate..
-
1
- Show all
When you have been born again, the Holy Spirit dwells within you, convicting you when you commit a sin. The born again person, as he sojourns here on earth cannot lose his eternal inheritance. Jesus, by his death on the cross for all of the people that God gave him, atoned for their sins, and secured them to inherit heaven as their everlasting home. The born again person can temporary lose his fellowship with God until he repents, but he never loses his eternal inheritance that Christ secured for him on the cross.
Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was offered to God, for God's acceptance. It was never an offering to man for man's acceptance.
There is no cart before the horse in these statements. Scriptures do not contradict one another.
Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was offered to God, for God's acceptance. It was never an offering to man for man's acceptance.
There is no cart before the horse in these statements. Scriptures do not contradict one another.
A man must accept the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ to have it.. So people while hearing the Gospel are moved by the Holy Spirit by being convicted of the truth of the message of Jesus and their need for the Atonement of Jesus to have their transgressions covered.. If the person is meek and does not resist the conviction of the holy Spirit they will come to accept the Message of Jesus and His atonement..
So we disagree.. The offer was to men and men must accept it..
So we disagree.. The offer was to men and men must accept it..
How can the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, before he has been quickened to a new spiritual life by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, hear and understand the gospel? He receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Only "his sheep" will hear and discern the gospel (his voice). John 10:4-5, And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice (the gospel). And a stranger (the natural man) will not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice (gospel) of strangers.
Only "his sheep" will hear and discern the gospel (his voice). John 10:4-5, And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice (the gospel). And a stranger (the natural man) will not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice (gospel) of strangers.
Where going back in circles now.. I already explained that the Holy Spirit moves the natural man and convicts him of the truth of the Word.. But does not indwell the natural man untill they accept the Gospel..
Many are called but few are chosen.. Why because people can and do resist the Holy Spirit..
Many are called but few are chosen.. Why because people can and do resist the Holy Spirit..
's no such thing as human freewill, it's a hoax.
You know how a hoax works, you keep saying it over and over, in every book or other literature, every speech and sermon until it becomes ingrained into the brain and everybody believes it and anyone who disputes it is laughed at or vilified. That's what they do with evolution and that's what they do with the doctrine of human freewill.
There's nothing in the NT about it, zero. None of the apostles talk about them choosing Christ, choosing to believe.
Here is the choice
God says "choose ye this day whom you will SERVE"
Choice is not freewill, you don't get to choose the options, nor do you have any say about the consequences. You can't even choose not to choose, you are commanded to choose.
If man had freewill he could say to God "ok God, I will not serve You, but I refuse to die"
So you make the choice to serve God, that is to surrender your will to Him, submit to Him, receive Him as your Lord ... this is God's will.
or you refuse and so become a slave to sin and the end of sin is death, there's no freewill there.
God's will is good, perfect for each one of us, don't you trust that God's will for your life is the BEST? if you find God's will for your life you will be FREE, like Adam was free, he'd have stayed free if he had stayed within the bounds of God's perfect will.
But the devil tricked him into believing he had freewill and he could partake of that tree if'n he wanted to, there would be no consequences. .... how did all that work out?
You know how a hoax works, you keep saying it over and over, in every book or other literature, every speech and sermon until it becomes ingrained into the brain and everybody believes it and anyone who disputes it is laughed at or vilified. That's what they do with evolution and that's what they do with the doctrine of human freewill.
There's nothing in the NT about it, zero. None of the apostles talk about them choosing Christ, choosing to believe.
Here is the choice
God says "choose ye this day whom you will SERVE"
Choice is not freewill, you don't get to choose the options, nor do you have any say about the consequences. You can't even choose not to choose, you are commanded to choose.
If man had freewill he could say to God "ok God, I will not serve You, but I refuse to die"
So you make the choice to serve God, that is to surrender your will to Him, submit to Him, receive Him as your Lord ... this is God's will.
or you refuse and so become a slave to sin and the end of sin is death, there's no freewill there.
God's will is good, perfect for each one of us, don't you trust that God's will for your life is the BEST? if you find God's will for your life you will be FREE, like Adam was free, he'd have stayed free if he had stayed within the bounds of God's perfect will.
But the devil tricked him into believing he had freewill and he could partake of that tree if'n he wanted to, there would be no consequences. .... how did all that work out?
It seems to me that we must live as if we have free will. The Christian life is not automatic. People who choose to pray, study God's word and fellowship with other believers will be spiritually strong. Those who are slack are weak and prey for Satan. God's will for us is revealed in our inner man. If we will follow God's leading in the inner man, God is pleased and we are at peace. If we live for self, God's kingdom suffers loss and we are restless and joyless. Being predestined means that we have potential. It is not an excuse to be fatalistic. God's word is full of exhortations for us to choose God's ways over our own ways.
Think of it this way. God's will was for Israel to enter the promised land. It should have taken a couple of weeks. But because of rebellion, doubt and unbelief, it took 40 years. God knew this would happen, of course. But He did not make it happen. And His will was done, in spite of the 40 year delay.
Think of it this way. God's will was for Israel to enter the promised land. It should have taken a couple of weeks. But because of rebellion, doubt and unbelief, it took 40 years. God knew this would happen, of course. But He did not make it happen. And His will was done, in spite of the 40 year delay.
I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away,
the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And when
He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me. John 16:8
the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And when
He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me. John 16:8
The chosen are those who choose Christ. Everyone who claims to want to go God's way will face a test to show them if they are genuine. God already knows, of course. In John 6, Lord Jesus exposed followers whose hearts were not yet totally committed and they deserted Jesus. Lord Jesus exposed the heart of the rich young ruler, who loved money more than he wanted God's kingdom. Every Christian faces their own personal "Gethsemene" at some time. God's will at some time will be something we want to avoid at all costs. The one who says, "Not my will but yours" will be greatly blessed and be stronger in faith. I've faced these situations a number of times. It is only the grace of God that has got me through. When I was a new Christian, I feared God's will. Now I fear missing out on God's will!
-
1
- Show all
You are only free to choose if God sets you free to choose ... there were some who followed Jesus whose eyes God closed and whose ears He stopped up and whose hearts He hardened, lest at any time they should turn to Him and He heal them.
In old testament days this promise or command as it is only came to the Jews. The Egyptians didn't get the choice or the Philistines or Moab or Anakin.
And it's a command YOU didn't choose the options, YOU had no say in the consequences. You couldn't even choose not to choose, you must choose.
Serve God and live that's not your will, that's God's will.
serve the devil and die, dead men have no freewill.
You can't say " ok God I won't serve You but I refuse to die"
In old testament days this promise or command as it is only came to the Jews. The Egyptians didn't get the choice or the Philistines or Moab or Anakin.
And it's a command YOU didn't choose the options, YOU had no say in the consequences. You couldn't even choose not to choose, you must choose.
Serve God and live that's not your will, that's God's will.
serve the devil and die, dead men have no freewill.
You can't say " ok God I won't serve You but I refuse to die"