Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The city was rebuilt between 538BC and 530BC, how are we somehow now at 357BC?... but don't leave out the word "H7725 - shuv / shub" (as you are doing ^ in that sentence--between the two underlined parts ^ )
I don't know much about Darby but if he believes what I believe then he is definitely right....
So what are the seals trumpets and bowls? Increasing escalating after-birth pangs?
Let's work backwards. If it's 7 'sevens' and 62 'sevens' until Messiah, we should be able to take the year of Messiah's ministry and go backwards to confirm the prior dates of the prophecy.
----
1) The 2nd Jewish Temple began its reconstruction under Herod in 20 BC (Temple of Jerusalem - Britannica)
...and at the beginning of Messiah's ministry, the religious leaders - scoffing at the Messiah's prophecy - said this...
John 2:20 [brackets mine]
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years [46 years] was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days!?
This was only chapter 2 of John's account so it's safe to conclude it was the beginning of Messiah's ministry.
2) There's no such thing as a “year zero” when counting between BC and AD. Time flows from 1BC to 1AD. These facts are important when counting backwards or forwards.
20 BC + 46 years + 1 (to account for no "zero" year) = 27 AD
So the Messiah's ministry began in 27 AD.
3) Daniel 9:25 says
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
So let's reverse the math...
27 AD - 434 years - 49 years - 1 year (to account for no "zero" year) = 457 BC
----
1) The 2nd Jewish Temple began its reconstruction under Herod in 20 BC (Temple of Jerusalem - Britannica)
...and at the beginning of Messiah's ministry, the religious leaders - scoffing at the Messiah's prophecy - said this...
John 2:20 [brackets mine]
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years [46 years] was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days!?
This was only chapter 2 of John's account so it's safe to conclude it was the beginning of Messiah's ministry.
2) There's no such thing as a “year zero” when counting between BC and AD. Time flows from 1BC to 1AD. These facts are important when counting backwards or forwards.
20 BC + 46 years + 1 (to account for no "zero" year) = 27 AD
So the Messiah's ministry began in 27 AD.
3) Daniel 9:25 says
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
So let's reverse the math...
27 AD - 434 years - 49 years - 1 year (to account for no "zero" year) = 457 BC
No. It is the advent of the DOTL that is being compared to the days of Noah. The Rapture is nowhere to be found in Matthew 24.
You're wrong. The 70 AD date fits history, and it fits what Jesus said about the temple being annihilated, stone by stone, in the very same generation in which his apostles lived. 40 years after Jesus said this, the temple came down, fulfilling the prophecy. It had been predicted in the 70 Weeks prophecy, and Jesus had predicted it in his Olivet Discourse prophecy. Fits well in my scenario, but you're welcome to your own scenario, whatever that may be.
Matt 24.33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
All of what things happened in Jesus' generation? It was all the things connected to the destruction of the temple. Jesus initiated this Discourse by saying this:
24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
Thank you. Many commentators agree with us. I know you meant to say 457 BC. Some say 456 BC.
There are various translations - how do you understand "and will have nothing/but not for himself"?
Although some translations give 'masiah' as the The Messiah, there seems no good reason for this.
"An anointed one" is the correct translation according to various other translations.
Israel itself is anointed - see for instance
Psalm 105 : 15, Habakkuk 3:13
Given that Israel is the Church, then it makes good sense to understand that it is the Elect, the Church,
that is cut off at the end of the 69th week.
The trouble with the 457AD decree is that nothing specific happened AD33-40 where you are trying to make the last week happen. And besides, if you study Ezra and Nehemiah it is clear that these events happened straight after the construction of the Temple, as one would expect.
Why do you think this has any bearing on his calculation - which uses the beginning of the ministry of Jesus as the end point of the 62 weeks?
You seem to be trying really hard to not simply accept what the passage says...?
The 457 B.C. decree puts the 70th week at 27-34 A.D.
During the first half of it was the ministry of Christ.
Christ was crucified in the middle of it. (30 A.D.)
During the last half of it, the Church began to spread the Gospel - first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles.
Significant things that were all contained/included in the promises of the Covenant happened/occurred until the end of the 70th week.
CLICK
Ellicot's Commentary
The traditional interpretation follows the punctuation of Theodotion, which St. Jerome also adopted, and reckons the seventy weeks from B.C. 458, the twentieth year of Artaxerxes. From this date, measuring seven weeks of years—that is, forty-nine years—we are brought to the date B.C. 409. It is predicted that during this period the walls of Jerusalem and the city itself should be rebuilt, though in troublous times. It must be remembered that very little is known of Jewish history during the times after Ezra and Nehemiah. The latest date given in Nehemiah is the thirty-second year of Artaxerxes, or B.C. 446. It is highly probable that the city was not completely restored till nearly forty years later. Reckoning from B.C. 409 sixty-two weeks or 434 years, we are brought to A.D. 25, the year when our Saviour began His ministry. After three and a half years, or in the “midst of a week,” he was cut off.
I think the question you're posing here is whether "an/the anointed one" is an individual or corporate entity. Let's plug in both to see which is a better fit:
Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "Israel" inserted]
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Judah/Jews] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [Israel] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall [Israel] be cut off, but not for [Itself] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
A couple of problems with this take:
1) This doesn't fit because it was a prophecy for Daniel's people, Judah (the southern house; the Jews) not the northern house of Israel. Recall that only Ephraim & Manasseh had the right to bear the name Israel (given to Joseph's youngest son upon the death-bead of Jacob).
Genesis 48:16
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
From this point forward, only the northern house is either known as Ephraim or Israel, while the southern house is known as Judah until Messiah rejoins them back together himself as written in Ezekiel 37.
2) It doesn't make sense for verse 25 to go into detail about Israel returning with Judah (following the summary given in verse 24) only to be re-scattered and desolated again, because the rejoining of both houses by the Messiah was supposed to follow the resurrection as detailed in Ezekiel 37, the famous "valley of dry bones" chapter...which precedes the Gog/Magog war after they return to their land (Chapters 38& 39). This is still future.
Ezekiel 37:10-11
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
-----
Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "an anointed one" inserted]
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Judah/Jews] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [an anointed one] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall [that anointed one] be cut off, but not for [himself] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
This take is perfectly acceptable because it still would point to an anointed one who appeared in the 1st century. Also, note that the initial time-frame says, "from the decree/command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one". it doesn't say, "from the restoring & rebuilding of Jerusalem until an anointed one". Giving the decreed doesn't mean rebuilding immediately started.
Well, the last week wouldn't be AD 33-40, but AD 27-34. Notice that the text says, "from decree...until Messiah (or an anointed one)". The text doesn't say, "from decree...until Messiah (or an anointed one) is cut off". It's implication is 'from the giving of decree until the appearance of anointed one'.
^ This take also matches the record of the Messiah ministering during the 46th year of Herod's temple expansion.