Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Speaking of your Post #453...

When did this building effort occur? Because THIS is referring to Dan 9:25. Undoubtedly.
BTW....you are so far in the wrong, so often, that I have had you on ignore for a long long time.

Neh 1:3
And they said to me, “The survivors who are left from the captivity in the province are there in great distress and reproach. The wall of Jerusalem is also broken down, and its gates are burned with fire.”

Neh 2:3
and said to the king, “May the king live forever! Why should my face not be sad, when the CITY, the place of my fathers' tombs, lies waste, and its gates are burned with fire?”

Neh 2:8
“and a letter to Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he must give me timber to make beams for the gates of the citadel which pertains to the temple, for the city wall, and for the house that I will occupy.” And the king granted them to me according to the good hand of my God upon me.

Neh 2:13
And I went out by night through the Valley Gate to the Serpent Well and the Refuse Gate, and viewed the walls of Jerusalem which were broken down and its gates which were burned with fire.

Neh 2:17
Then I said to them, “You see the distress that we are in, how Jerusalem lies waste, and its gates are burned with fire. Come and let us build the wall of Jerusalem, that we may no longer be a reproach.”

Neh 6:1
Now it happened when Sanballat, Tobiah, Geshem the Arab, and the rest of our enemies heard that I had rebuilt the wall, and that there were no breaks left in it (though at that time I had not hung the doors in the gates),

... may the readers CONSIDER the following, also:


Note that "H7725 - shuv / shub" is used 2x in this verse, and is sometimes translated "again" (like in the 2nd occurrence in this verse)...

...but in the first occurrence in this verse, imho, it could legit be translated "resume [rebuild Jerusalem]," as in, "AGAIN [rebuild Jerusalem]" (i.e. after the pause, from the time of the first mention of this re: Cyrus--not that it was actually being builded yet, tho the temple was...)...

...IOW, "FROM the going forth of the commandment [/word] to RESUME [H7725 - shuv / shub, or 'AGAIN'] rebuild Jerusalem UNTO the Messiah prince..." (which would be the later one, in Neh2 )--SEE ALSO especially Ezra 4:19-21,23a (quoted in part, below):


H7725 - shuv / shub (in bold) -

Smith's Literal Translation -

"And thou shalt know and understand, from the going forth of the word to turn back and to build Jerusalem even to Messiah the leader, seventy weeks [<--a typo perhaps??? ('seven wks')], and sixty and two weeks: and the street shall turn back and be built, and the ditch, in the trouble of the times."

https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/9-25.htm



Ezra 4:21 (referenced at top) -

Berean Study Bible -

"Now, therefore, issue an order for these men to stop, so that this city will not be rebuilt until I so order."


King James Bible -

"Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me."

https://biblehub.com/text/ezra/4-21.htm




If this is the case, then it (Dan9:25) is specifically addressing the "going forth of the commandment / word" that actually executed the rebuilding of it, rather than merely the initial thoughts [idea] of it [via Cyrus--tho certainly that is important too, in its place, but its place doesn't seem to be what is being referenced here in this Dan9:25 verse, as I see it]...

 

[Rondonmon]

No, you've got that all wrong. The Church is nowhere to be found in Matt 24.
BTW, it was a PRIVATE BRIEFING on the Mount of Olives, given ONLY to Peter, James, John and Andrew.

Mark 13:3,4
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him PRIVATELY, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

I stated just the opposite, that this is unto the Jews only at least three times. I did say that verses 7-14 are Church Age Signs, but that just points to the era between 70 AD and the Rapture as being the Church Age era. No Christian can argue we are not in the Church Age era as we speak, and will be until the Rapture.

I stated he was speaking unto his Disciples who asked him THREE QUESTIONS. And he was also projecting the answer to End Time Jews ot Israelites since today's Jews are all 12 tribes in reality.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If this is the case, then it (Dan9:25) is specifically addressing the "going forth of the commandment / word" that actually executed the rebuilding of it,

... perhaps I should've emphasized: "the going forth of the commandment/word AGAIN [H7725] to rebuild..." (more to the point)




[i.e. the one issued in 445bc, Neh2]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I stated just the opposite, that this is unto the Jews only at least three times. I did say that verses 7-14 are Church Age Signs, but that just points to the era between 70 AD and the Rapture as being the Church Age era. No Christian can argue we are not in the Church Age era as we speak, and will be until the Rapture.

Some of us see "the beginning of birth pangs" to be *equivalent* to the SEALS, and that the SEALS take place WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks of (i.e. WITHIN the 7-yr Trib); as opposed to transpiring at any point within "the Church age" ["in this present age [singular]"]; in fact, Paul states that "the day of the Lord" time-period ARRIVES "like"... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that COMES UPON a woman... (i.e. the "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' (bringing deception)]"--i.e. SEAL #1)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... of Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 (G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE')

 

[Rondonmon]

Neither; the generation to whom Jesus was speaking. "This" generation; the one alive in ~30 AD.

What I stated is factual, continue down your rabbit hole.

Jesus doesn't say you will see the Son of Man returning in the Eastern skies; I would encourage you to read more carefully.

That is exactly what he said. You however don't see the puzzle as I do, you see bits and pieces scattered here and there, I see the big picture and don't waste words, I just say what is being put forth, you, however, try to follow the crumbs and are missing the three-course meal.

Matt. 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So, we would agree, this is Jesus' Second Coming from the CLOUDS. So why don't you also know where he is coming from? He just said it a few verses before. Why does one have to spell these things out every time they make a point, we are all supposed to know this.


Matt. 24:25 Behold, I have told you before[hand]. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Now, where is Jesus coming from? The Eastern Skies, you just have to know these things brother. I don't even look up the scriptures half the time, I already know what's going on in each situation. I only look them up and post them to explain what they mean to others tbh.

Like I said, knots.

By not admitting what is obvious, you have seemingly tied your own self in knots. TBH, I would be too embarrassed to continue forth with that argument, LOL. I mean you have ZERO LEGS to stand on, but of course, MAN'S PRIDE is the last thing and the hardest thing to overcome. That is what caused the fall of Satan, Pride.

Obvious to those who have never been taught anything different, perhaps.

SMH. I destroyed your argument, yet you cling to it like fools' gold.

 

[Dino246]

Do you have anything edifying to offer?

How about post #453? I'd call that one pretty much a homerun

BTW....you are so far in the wrong, so often, that I have had you on ignore for a long long time.

It appears that your understanding of "edifying" is aberrant. I would encourage you to review John 13:34-35.

 

[Dino246]

What I stated is factual, continue down your rabbit hole.


That is exactly what he said. You however don't see the puzzle as I do, you see bits and pieces scattered here and there, I see the big picture and don't waste words, I just say what is being put forth, you, however, try to follow the crumbs and are missing the three-course meal.

Matt. 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So, we would agree, this is Jesus' Second Coming from the CLOUDS. So why don't you also know where he is coming from? He just said it a few verses before. Why does one have to spell these things out every time they make a point, we are all supposed to know this.


Matt. 24:25 Behold, I have told you before[hand]. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Now, where is Jesus coming from? The Eastern Skies, you just have to know these things brother. I don't even look up the scriptures half the time, I already know what's going on in each situation. I only look them up and post them to explain what they mean to others tbh.



By not admitting what is obvious, you have seemingly tied your own self in knots. TBH, I would be too embarrassed to continue forth with that argument, LOL. I mean you have ZERO LEGS to stand on, but of course, MAN'S PRIDE is the last thing and the hardest thing to overcome. That is what caused the fall of Satan, Pride.


SMH. I destroyed your argument, yet you cling to it like fools' gold.

See my post to CV5. With your attitude, you won't convince me of anything except that you have much to learn.

 

[Rondonmon]

Some of us see "the beginning of birth pangs" to be *equivalent* to the SEALS, and that the SEALS take place WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks of (i.e. WITHIN the 7-yr Trib); as opposed to transpiring at any point within "the Church age" ["in this present age [singular]"]; in fact, Paul states that "the day of the Lord" time-period ARRIVES "like"... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that COMES UPON a woman... (i.e. the "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' (bringing deception)]"--i.e. SEAL #1)

It will arrive in a sudden moment of time but it's speaking of one's fate. Noah was shut up in the Ark by God Himself, then the rain started, and at that very moment the fate of the world was at hand, yet all they saw was rain for the first few days, not the flood. Te Rapture will e just like the days of Noah, they will be driving, eating, giving in marriage, then the floods (70th week) will come upon the world. When that Rapture happens, the fate of all men on this earth are sealed (unless you die naturally before the middle of the week) they will all go through the tribulation period.

The Seals are all opened during the 70th week, we can see that in Rev. 4:1, it says that all of these things are the "HEREAFTER".

And by the way, I agree Rev. 1:1 does indeed mean QUICKNESS or in HASTE, not Shortly (or at least how shortly is perceived nowadays) we can see that the KJV bible translated two Greek words as SHORTLY.

The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn, 2491

1722 = EN
#1722 ἐν en {en}

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time, or state)

5034 = TACHOS
#5034 τάχος tachos {takh'-os}

from the same as G5036; TDNT - n/a; n n
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) quickness, speed
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So, the Greek ord TACHOS is where the English word Tachometer comes from whiich of course measures speed. The Gree word EN is speaking about a FIXED POINT [in time in this case).

So, basically, Jesus is just stating the obvious, at a (EN) FIXED POINT IN TIME (Jesus knows that the day nor the hour) I will (TACHOS) come in HASTE or come SPEEDILY. It never meant shortly, of course, the old English word here means in a SHORT TIME PERIOD or in a flash so to speak, Jesus can be there almost as soon as the order is given because He is God after all.

So, we agree that means SPEEDILY. Or in QUICKNESS.

The Birth Pangs however only birth the baby, they are not a part of the 70th week. The 70th week = THE BABY, you cant have Birth Pangs once the baby is delivered.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Great Tribulation had some time chopped off it, in order to save the Church

That's where you are confused. The Church will be safe in Heaven. The Tribulation saints will be martyred on earth, and for the sake of "the elect" (redeemed Jews preserved by God in the wilderness as noted in Revelation 12) the time will be shortened.

But the Church (the Lamb's Wife) cannot come with Christ at His Second Coming AFTER the the Great Tribulation unless it is already in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb. Thus a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a divine necessity.

CHRIST COMES WITH HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS ("THE CLOUDS")
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

It is truly amazing the Enoch -- just the 7th from Adam -- prophesied about the second coming of Christ long before His first coming.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So, we agree that means SPEEDILY. Or in QUICKNESS.

The Birth Pangs however only birth the baby, they are not a part of the 70th week. The 70th week = THE BABY, you cant have Birth Pangs once the baby is delivered.

It seems you and I are defining "the day of the Lord" in different ways.

I believe "the day of the Lord" INCLUDES the 7-yr tribulation period (AS the "DARK / DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF IT [1Th5:2-3]), before the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect OF SAME, i.e. Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (and the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect OF IT, ALSO, i.e. the earthly MK age). ALL THREE ASPECTS are what comprise "the day of the Lord" time-period (ALL "earthly-located").



So that "THE BABY" = His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (with "the birth PANGS" [including "the beginning" of same] preceding and leading UP TO that point). Ex: Matt24:33 "... know that IT is near, even at the doors" = His RETURN to the earth FOR the MK age (its COMMENCING)

 

[randyk]

The first 69 weeks were literal 7 years,

if the first 69 weeks are weeks of years, the. The last week should also be a week of years,

your doing what many a person has tried to do when part of a prophecy has been literally fulfilled, and the rest have not. You have turned to a spiritual or allegorical interpretation to try to make the prophecies as fulfilled already, because you do not want to see that there is yet prophecy to be fulfilled

other aspects of scripture which speak of the same time also put it at 7 years,some even number the days, equaling 3.5 years as the final half of the week.

you Can try to do that with prophecy if you want, but then we have no basis for which to come to an agreement,

No, this was the view of the Church Fathers, that the 70 Weeks were to lead to the end of Judaism and to the beginning of Christianity. There is no allegory in that. The time was 70 Weeks of years. We know the first 69 Weeks had to consist of 483 years. Christ's ministry was supposed to have been in the final 7 year period, the 70th Week. But Christ was cut off, and OT offerings were suddenly no longer recognized by God. This happened in the 70th Week, after Christ had come to confirm God's covenant with Israel in the same Week.

So it is purely logical to see that the 70 Week period was completed in a half-Week, and not in a whole Week. Christ was cut off, which is what caused God to no longer recognize Judaism and OT offerings (in the midst of the Week). Christ's offering succeeded (in the midst of the Week) whereas the 70 Weeks could not bring about Israel's salvation. Instead, it brought about Israel's Savior, curtailing Israel's OT covenant for a brand new covenant.

This is a semblance of how the Church Fathers saw it, and also how I see it. You can irrationally call this a 70 Week period, and then cut off the 70th Week, making it into a 69 Week period, and still call it a 70 Week period if you want. But if you do, you seem to be the one who is rationalizing away what otherwise is obviously intended to be a singular, sequential 70 Week period.

 

[randyk]

I do understand your questions. I just do not and can not see them the way you want me to,

I have no interest in forced convictions. My interest is purely in clarity of thought between two parties who disagree. Thanks.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So, basically, Jesus is just stating the obvious, at a (EN) FIXED POINT IN TIME (Jesus knows that the day nor the hour) I will (TACHOS) come in HASTE or come SPEEDILY. It never meant shortly, of course, the old English word here means in a SHORT TIME PERIOD or in a flash so to speak, Jesus can be there almost as soon as the order is given because He is God after all.

But this ^ is not what 1:1 is speaking to, exactly...

...rather, THIS:

[quoting old post]

[...] see... the correspondence among the following three verses (informing of the "WHEN" in relation to what other things, and the "HOW LONG"/"DURATION" of the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book)... the "Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1" FUTURE aspects of the Book:

*1)--Revelation 1:1a - "The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus] to show to His bond-servants what things
it behooves to [/must]
take place
in quickness [noun]."


2)--Revelation 1:19c - "Therefore write down the things you have seen, and the things that are, and the things
that will [mello-'are certain to' (i.e. 'must')]
happen [/take place]
after these [things]."


3)--Revelation 4:1 - "After these things [after 'the things WHICH ARE' in chpts 2-3 (which are NOT said to be what must take place "in quickness [noun]," by contrast)] I looked, and behold, a door was standing open in heaven, and the first voice that I heard like a trumpet was speaking with me, saying, [or, the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet (back in chpt 1:10-11, where Jesus Himself is also referred to as "the FIRST and the LAST") was (now) saying,] "Come up here, and I will show to you what
it behooves to [/must]
take place
after these things."


[end quoting old post]

___________

... referring to the "THINGS" John is getting ready to be "SHOW[N]" (from 4:1 and following)... not referring merely to the point in time of Christ's "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19 [and starting THERE], see... but the ENTIRE "7-yr Trib" (4:1 / chpt 6 thru chpt 19) IS the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (being referred to in 1:1 [22:6])

 

[cv5]

^ Speaking of your Post #453...




... may the readers CONSIDER the following, also:


Note that "H7725 - shuv / shub" is used 2x in this verse, and is sometimes translated "again" (like in the 2nd occurrence in this verse)...

...but in the first occurrence in this verse, imho, it could legit be translated "resume [rebuild Jerusalem]," as in, "AGAIN [rebuild Jerusalem]" (i.e. after the pause, from the time of the first mention of this re: Cyrus--not that it was actually being builded yet, tho the temple was...)...

...IOW, "FROM the going forth of the commandment [/word] to RESUME [H7725 - shuv / shub, or 'AGAIN'] rebuild Jerusalem UNTO the Messiah prince..." (which would be the later one, in Neh2 )--SEE ALSO especially Ezra 4:19-21,23a (quoted in part, below):


H7725 - shuv / shub (in bold) -

Smith's Literal Translation -

"And thou shalt know and understand, from the going forth of the word to turn back and to build Jerusalem even to Messiah the leader, seventy weeks [<--a typo perhaps??? ('seven wks')], and sixty and two weeks: and the street shall turn back and be built, and the ditch, in the trouble of the times."

https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/9-25.htm



Ezra 4:21 (referenced at top) -

Berean Study Bible -

"Now, therefore, issue an order for these men to stop, so that this city will not be rebuilt until I so order."


King James Bible -

"Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me."

https://biblehub.com/text/ezra/4-21.htm




If this is the case, then it (Dan9:25) is specifically addressing the "going forth of the commandment / word" that actually executed the rebuilding of it, rather than merely the initial thoughts [idea] of it [via Cyrus--tho certainly that is important too, in its place, but its place doesn't seem to be what is being referenced here in this Dan9:25 verse, as I see it]...

Amen. Astute bible students recall the Ezra 4 contention and delays....

All in all 445BC is quite conclusive.

 

[AandW]

Interesting enough, the Jews themselves have a rather interesting timeline for Daniel's Prophecy that ends specifically and exactly according to the dates Daniel used. They considered the Anointed as being the High Priest. And oddly enough, according to their timeline, they don't have to GUESS what Daniel means because the same High Priest in Yeshua's day, was the same High Priest who died around 63 A.D. and the next 7 years led to 70 A.D. fulfilling Daniel's Prophecy.

It's rather interesting because it is [MORE ACCURATE] than tossing Christ into the equation. And Christ in Matthew 24 [DOES NOT] include Himself as the Anointed One, but as the Son of Man who returns a second time!

 

[cv5]

No, this was the view of the Church Fathers, that the 70 Weeks were to lead to the end of Judaism and to the beginning of Christianity. There is no allegory in that. The time was 70 Weeks of years. We know the first 69 Weeks had to consist of 483 years. Christ's ministry was supposed to have been in the final 7 year period, the 70th Week. But Christ was cut off, and OT offerings were suddenly no longer recognized by God. This happened in the 70th Week, after Christ had come to confirm God's covenant with Israel in the same Week.

So it is purely logical to see that the 70 Week period was completed in a half-Week, and not in a whole Week. Christ was cut off, which is what caused God to no longer recognize Judaism and OT offerings (in the midst of the Week). Christ's offering succeeded (in the midst of the Week) whereas the 70 Weeks could not bring about Israel's salvation. Instead, it brought about Israel's Savior, curtailing Israel's OT covenant for a brand new covenant.

This is a semblance of how the Church Fathers saw it, and also how I see it. You can irrationally call this a 70 Week period, and then cut off the 70th Week, making it into a 69 Week period, and still call it a 70 Week period if you want. But if you do, you seem to be the one who is rationalizing away what otherwise is obviously intended to be a singular, sequential 70 Week period.

Obvious......except for a 3.5 year fudge factor? And a wackadoo 70AD date that fits nothing?

Sorry.... I'm sticking with what I know to be true.

 

[GaryA]

Or, Artaxerxes in 457 BC... The rebuilding of the temple and the city were both implied in the original decree of Cyrus. The temple was rebuilt first, but the city remained unfinished.

Each successive king after Cyrus had to contend with Cyrus' original decree to rebuild both the temple and the city. Artaxerxes finished the job. He did make an official decree in 457 BC to restore worship at the temple, which was followed by the sanctioning of the city's rebuilding. Nehemiah had the walls of Jerusalem rebuilt during this time.

The 7 Weeks of Dan 9 corresponded with this time of Jerusalem's rebuilding. Then 62 Weeks followed until the 70th Week, when the Messiah would be cut off. In the midst of the 70th Week OT offerings ended. And after the 70 Weeks elapsed, the temple and the city would be destroyed once again by the Roman Army, the Abomination of Desolation.

I believe 357 B.C. to be the correct year of the decree going forth to rebuild the city.

 

[cv5]

Interesting enough, the Jews themselves have a rather interesting timeline for Daniel's Prophecy that ends specifically and exactly according to the dates Daniel used. They considered the Anointed as being the High Priest. And oddly enough, according to their timeline, they don't have to GUESS what Daniel means because the same High Priest in Yeshua's day, was the same High Priest who died around 63 A.D. and the next 7 years led to 70 A.D. fulfilling Daniel's Prophecy.

It's rather interesting because it is [MORE ACCURATE] than tossing Christ into the equation. And Christ in Matthew 24 [DOES NOT] include Himself as the Anointed One, but as the Son of Man who returns a second time!

So you are saying that Jews today (whom Paul says are blinded) understand prophecy better than the Church? Doesn't sound right to me....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believe 357 B.C. to be the correct year of the decree going forth to rebuild the city.

... but don't leave out the word "H7725 - shuv / shub" (as you are doing ^ in that sentence --between the two underlined parts ^ )