's' no such thing as human freewill

[Evmur]

@ post 40.
I will answer just a cuppla points you raise but I won't respond any more to your posts.

I did not say everyone who believes in the doctrine of human freewill is insulting God, I said the doctrine is an insult to God. People believe it because they are taught it. Nor have I said they were idolators.

On each man's responsibility for sin is a more complex issue. God and God alone will decide it. Our attitude should be "there but for the grace of God go I"

 

[ZNP]

Paul had seen many Jews trying to attain to righteousness by keeping the law and yet they all failed. He concludes that they have tried in every way possible and if it were possible they would have attained, since they didn't attain he presents it as evidence that it is impossible for anyone to gain righteousness by keeping the law.

Now some have erroneously concluded that since it is impossible to attain righteousness by keeping the law the issue is that we don't actually have free will. But think about the implication of that. All of these people for centuries and centuries were like a puppet on a string, controlled by God, trying to gain righteousness and failing. This is a picture of an evil, sadistic God as though all these sinful failures were amusing to Him.

But Paul says "I do not set aside the grace of God, if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing." Does an evil, sadistic God die to pay for our redemption? You can't have it both ways, if man does not have free will then God judging men for doing things that they had no control over is unjust. That is not "the grace of God". It says "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated". Why did God hate Esau? Because he sold his birthright for a bowl of beans. If Esau had no control over that but was controlled by Satan then focus your hate on Satan. If Esau was controlled by God then it is even worse.

To say "there but for the grace of God go I" does not mean that if I sin it is due to a lack of grace. Nor does it mean that the grace I receive is not freely available to all who will receive it. In fact the Bible never says this, it seems to be loosely based on Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me". Christ living in me is not "demon possession". It is two walking together as one. The Lord gives you life and you in turn give Him your living.

If you ask someone "are God's judgements righteous?" The answer is yes. You don't need to be coy, you don't need to be vague. If you ask someone "are you responsible for your sins" the answer is again, yes. This is what it means to "confess your sins".

 

[Magenta]

Paul had seen many Jews trying to attain to righteousness by keeping the law and yet they all failed. He concludes that they have tried in every way possible and if it were possible they would have attained, since they didn't attain he presents it as evidence that it is impossible for anyone to gain righteousness by keeping the law.

Now some have erroneously concluded that since it is impossible to attain righteousness by keeping the law the issue is that we don't actually have free will. But think about the implication of that. All of these people for centuries and centuries were like a puppet on a string, controlled by God, trying to gain righteousness and failing. This is a picture of an evil, sadistic God as though all these sinful failures were amusing to Him.

But Paul says "I do not set aside the grace of God, if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing." Does an evil, sadistic God die to pay for our redemption? You can't have it both ways, if man does not have free will then God judging men for doing things that they had no control over is unjust. That is not "the grace of God". It says "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated". Why did God hate Esau? Because he sold his birthright for a bowl of beans. If Esau had no control over that but was controlled by Satan then focus your hate on Satan. If Esau was controlled by God then it is even worse.

To say "there but for the grace of God go I" does not mean that if I sin it is due to a lack of grace. Nor does it mean that the grace I receive is not freely available to all who will receive it. In fact the Bible never says this, it seems to be loosely based on Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me". Christ living in me is not "demon possession". It is two walking together as one. The Lord gives you life and you in turn give Him your living.

If you ask someone "are God's judgements righteous?" The answer is yes. You don't need to be coy, you don't need to be vague. If you ask someone "are you responsible for your sins" the answer is again, yes. This is what it means to "confess your sins".

Peter says the same thing in Acts 15: it is impossible for any to keep the law. I am unaware of not having free will being a conclusion drawn from that, or concluding that man's failures in this regard were fodder for an evil, sadistic God's amusement. Especially since we are specifically told that God derives no pleasure in the destruction and/or death of the wicked.

 

[Evmur]

In what way God holds men and women responsible for sin is a subject that requires a great deal of careful thought, it is not a subject to be approached with an angry spirit.

Paul says that in times past [so far as the Gentiles were concerned] God winked at sin, in 2. Corinthians 5-19 he teaches that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself not counting their sins against them.

The judgement now is when the Light of the world came did they come to Him or did they prefer the darkness because their deeds were evil?

Those who came to Him did they do so of "their own freewill"? it cannot be the case

It cannot be our will that has drawn us to Christ or desires Him because our will "freewill" or the desire for it is what causes us to rebel against Him. "We have turned every one of us his own way" it was the delusion of freewill that caused us to sin. Human freewill is a deception.

It was so in the Garden of Eden. I have shown how that while Adam stayed within the bounds of God's law [which was a very simple law] Adam was FREE. He was everything God had created him for, he desired for nothing in his garden of beauty and abundance.

This was God's will for man, this has always been God's will for man, this still is God's will for man. But Adam had to stay within God's simple law "leave that tree alone" and the penalty for disobedience was death. Death is a whole new and difference existence, a new world to the one Adam then knew.

Satan wanted man out of that garden, away from God, to rob and to kill and destroy him. how could he do it?

He did it by deceiving man into believing he was free to partake of the tree God had forbidden , "it's not true you will die ... you will be like God [having free sovereign will] able to choose between good and evil." Human freewill is that deception.

 

[ZNP]

God was reconciling the world in Christ, not counting people's sin against them

5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. It is up to you, you must make the choice. We have the message of reconciliation which is "Believe and be baptized". To be reconciled to God you must receive His word and obey.

The verdict is in!

3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

"Their deeds" were evil. If you do not have free will are they really your deeds? If someone had a gun to my head to go rob a bank I would not fear the deed being exposed because in the light you would see I was coerced, I did not commit the sin of my own free will. This is what it says, if you "live by the truth" you want to come into the light. How could someone without free will live by the truth prior to coming into the light?

 

[Evmur]

No man can come to the Son unless the Father draw him. Do you say you chose Christ? if you were sat at table with Him and He said to you "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you" would you argue with Him?

 

[BrokenSparrow]

No man can come to the Son unless the Father draw him. Do you say you chose Christ? if you were sat at table with Him and He said to you "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you" would you argue with Him?

This debate sometimes gets confusing for me.

God made the choice to send his Son to die for our sins. Many places says that Jesus came not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world.

So then the questions becomes, if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world then why are only some saved?

I think it is because the Father draws all men, and in the moment that he is calling and drawing us, we must choose to accept him and turn our will over to him.

 

[ZNP]

John 12:32 32 and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.

This is how God the Father drew us to Christ, He lifted Him up on the cross for all to see.

 

[Evmur]

This debate sometimes gets confusing for me.

God made the choice to send his Son to die for our sins. Many places says that Jesus came not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world.

So then the questions becomes, if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world then why are only some saved?

I think it is because the Father draws all men, and in the moment that he is calling and drawing us, we must choose to accept him and turn our will over to him.

Well that is a whole new and tough subject really, remember Paul says about knowledge, and he is speaking about spiritual knowledge, that our knowledge in this life is imperfect, our knowledge of God. It is [says he] as though we are looking through a darkened glass, he means mirror.

Some things we KNOW and can be CERTAIN about we can know that God is Love, we can know that all His ways are perfect, that all His ways are grace and peace. I always approach these hard questions like that.

I believe in what is called THE WIDER MERCY that is to say that a very great many more people will find mercy on that day than is commonly supposed by evangelical christians [I am evangelical] mebbe I'll make a blog post about it to show scripturally [for we must stick like glue to scripture] how certain doctrines concerning the last judgement can be understood differently to show that The Father's house will indeed be packed to the rafters and that the redeemed will be a vast multitude which even in heaven it will be impossible to count.

I do not understand why some people are evil, we all sinners, but some there are it seems who are dedicated to evil as we are dedicated to the Lord.

These people are indeed drawn to the Lord for when Jesus is lifted up all men are drawn to Him, they are drawn to judgement.

We do not see inside men to know what is there, God sees. The fact is that wheat and tares are things completely different. We do not know.

Always remember Saul of Tarsus, murdering and dragging men and women off to prison because they were disciples, who'd have thought he could get saved? but he did. All who are meant to be saved will be saved.

 

[Evmur]

John 12:32 32 and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.

This is how God the Father drew us to Christ, He lifted Him up on the cross for all to see.

Yes we see how the religious leaders were also drawn to Him, like insects to a flame, but they were drawn unto judgement.

 

[ZNP]

Yes we see how the religious leaders were also drawn to Him, like insects to a flame, but they were drawn unto judgement.

That was their choice

 

[Evmur]

That was their choice

... like insects to a flame

 

[Adstar]

Did you create yourself? did God at any time come and consult you in the matter?

Did you choose where you would be born? whether to be a male or female? how tall you would be? whether you will be rich or poor, can you by your "own freewill" choose to have black hair or white?

Nothing above has anything to do with me having the free will to reply with this post rejecting the notion that the above points discredit free will..

You could decide to do another post and [God forbid] suffer a stroke.

Having a stroke or not has nothing to do with my free will ability to decide to post this post.. If i suffered a stroke between deciding and doing then i probably would not be replying.. But my free will desire to reply would still have been there to do so..

People do not have freewill concerning their natural birth but they can be quite indignant if you suggest they don't have freewill concerning the much more precious second birth.

Of course i had no say in my creation.. Because i did not exist before God created me.. But again this has absolutly nothing to do with me being created with the ability to have free will.. Which i have..

Jesus said "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you" this is a doctrine to make you dance for joy for we make many mistakes but God does not make mistakes. The fact that He chose to save us gives us confidence to believe that "that which He has begun in us He will carry through to completion against that day"

Lets see what the actual verse says::

(John 15:16) "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

Where does it say i have chosen you to believe? This was spoken to the apostles after they had become his apostles. Of course by His foreknowedge He chose them to be his Apostles to go out and spread the Gospel..

Don't you know that the idea that we could ever lose this salvation is a direct derivative of the freewill doctrine?

Of course we can reject our own salvation by ceasing to believe in the Gospel and the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. calvinisim is a deception that i reject.. Many people are falling away from the truth right now.. Many are not persevering to the end.. Many having itchy ears are being lead away by false preachers with damnable doctrines of demons.. Many who have escaped the pollutions of the world by the gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ have turned back like a dog consuming their own vomit..

(2 Peter 2:20-22) "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. {21} For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. {22} But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

It has happened to them even in Peters day..

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Well well well . . . it looks like a person who doesn't have Christ as their Master and Father . . . they are held captive, by the Devil, to do his evil will. This means that those who don't have Christ are under the control and dominion of Satan . . . doing what Satan wants them to do.

NKJV - " . . . and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

So much for "free will" for those who are without Christ.

ESV - "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Oh boy . . . and Paul was saying, in regard to his old, former life, that he too was under the control of the devil . . . doing the Devil's will. He couldn't stop! Paul couldn't do what he wanted to do!

NET - "But now it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me."

NET - "Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer me doing it but sin that lives in me."

Where's the freedom of choice? The things that Paul wanted to do, prior to Christ, he could not do!

 

[riverhooks]

The doctrine of human freewill is an affront to God, it is an affront which He is very merciful and long suffering about. If it were true that human beings had freewill and the ability to follow through on their choice to do what is right there would not have been the need for God to send His only Son to earth to die a shameful death.
Jesus came for to set us FREE, it is therefore an affront to say now that we were already free and could choose to do right.

The belief in human freewill is idolatry and that of the highest order.

That will offend many, aye many good brethren and sisteren that I admire and on a forum like this whose posts I like.

We read in the OT about the times of revival that occurred during the reign of good kings like Jehoshaphat, Josiah and Hezekiah and under prophets like Elijah and Elisha but then we read the sad footnote after each of them "but the high places were not removed" and we know that the sin of Jereboam the son of Nebat was never taken away.

No apostle ever speaks about their choosing God or of following Him of their own freewill. Imagine them opening their epistles with "Thanks be unto God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen to follow of our own freewill" Always it is God who chose us of His own free grace.

To suppose that we chose God is to suppose that some good thing dwelled in us that enabled us to make that choice.

Paul says we were slaves to sin, in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe but Jesus has set us FREE that we may now become servants of God and of His righteousness. The picture is of the Jews when they were slaves in Egypt, will you say you were free as to whether or not you could sin? you were bound to sin, you had no choice. And because you were bound to sin you were also bound to death, you have no choice, you must die.

And death is not just laying down and croaking. Death the bible says has become our shepherd. We must so order our days and each hour of the day defending ourselves against death, we must make sure we do not starve or become naked and without shelter.

Only Jesus can set us FREE and this He has done, Now you can discover HIS will for your life and His will is good, perfect. But if you fall back to following your own will, your own choices, why then you will fall back into bondage once more.

I guess I will just throw this out . God loves freewill. He can be sovereign and allow freewill .

The doctrine of human freewill is an affront to God, it is an affront which He is very merciful and long suffering about. If it were true that human beings had freewill and the ability to follow through on their choice to do what is right there would not have been the need for God to send His only Son to earth to die a shameful death.
Jesus came for to set us FREE, it is therefore an affront to say now that we were already free and could choose to do right.

The belief in human freewill is idolatry and that of the highest order.

That will offend many, aye many good brethren and sisteren that I admire and on a forum like this whose posts I like.

We read in the OT about the times of revival that occurred during the reign of good kings like Jehoshaphat, Josiah and Hezekiah and under prophets like Elijah and Elisha but then we read the sad footnote after each of them "but the high places were not removed" and we know that the sin of Jereboam the son of Nebat was never taken away.

No apostle ever speaks about their choosing God or of following Him of their own freewill. Imagine them opening their epistles with "Thanks be unto God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen to follow of our own freewill" Always it is God who chose us of His own free grace.

To suppose that we chose God is to suppose that some good thing dwelled in us that enabled us to make that choice.

Paul says we were slaves to sin, in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe but Jesus has set us FREE that we may now become servants of God and of His righteousness. The picture is of the Jews when they were slaves in Egypt, will you say you were free as to whether or not you could sin? you were bound to sin, you had no choice. And because you were bound to sin you were also bound to death, you have no choice, you must die.

And death is not just laying down and croaking. Death the bible says has become our shepherd. We must so order our days and each hour of the day defending ourselves against death, we must make sure we do not starve or become naked and without shelter.

Only Jesus can set us FREE and this He has done, Now you can discover HIS will for your life and His will is good, perfect. But if you fall back to following your own will, your own choices, why then you will fall back into bondage once more.

Never ceases to amaze what some people are willing to believe. So who did you not sin against with your freewill. Did God sin against Himself ? Your statement that belief in human freewill is idolatry of the highest order , shows to me that you have freewill to the highest order . Save me Jesus.

 

[Evmur]

I guess I will just throw this out . God loves freewill. He can be sovereign and allow freewill .

Never ceases to amaze what some people are willing to believe. So who did you not sin against with your freewill. Did God sin against Himself ? Your statement that belief in human freewill is idolatry of the highest order , shows to me that you have freewill to the highest order . Save me Jesus.

The idea that folks have freewill kills people. They say "if G

 

[Evmur]

I guess I will just throw this out . God loves freewill. He can be sovereign and allow freewill .

Never ceases to amaze what some people are willing to believe. So who did you not sin against with your freewill. Did God sin against Himself ? Your statement that belief in human freewill is idolatry of the highest order , shows to me that you have freewill to the highest order . Save me Jesus.

The idea that folks have freewill is a killer. they say "if God did not want me to sin He shouldn't have given me freewill"

But God forbids sin. Faithfully He warns against it, rising up early He warns saying "if you sin you will die"

Who of their "own freewill" can refuse to die? who of their "own freewill" since the fall of Adam has been able to never sin? so these two powers bind us. Binds our will.

Until people understand that they are in the grip of a powerful enemy who is a killer they will never cry to be set free.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

So who did you not sin against with your freewill.

I JUST posted the answer to this above. Here it is again:

NKJV - " . . . and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

Those who have not received the Cirumcision of Christ, their will, or, their choices, are determined by the will of the Devil.

Are you dismissing 2nd Timothy 2:26 as if it doesn't exist?

We THINK that we are the ones making the decisions in our lives, that is, prior to Transformation, but we do not realize that in fact, we're not! We think that we're choosing our thoughts and actions, but we're not. Is that not what Paul was describing in Romans 7?

Romans 7:18-21 NLT - "And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't. 19 I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. 21 I have discovered this principle of life--that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong."

Are you really going to deny that Paul was under the influence of his "old" Spiritual Father? That he was doing the will of he Devil? Don't you understand that this is the Purpose of Christ being sent to earth? Don't you realize that the Work of Christ centers around the removal of the Adamic Curse of the Lord? Don't you understand that the Effect of Christ's Work is to Redeem us of this Curse?

Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

It was the Law that exposed the Curse, showing us what that Curse was all about. For example, the group of Benjamites that raped a woman to death. These laws showed us what sin was, for if we hadn't been told what sin was, we wouldn't have realized it.

Romans 7:7-9 NLT - "Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet." 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life . . ."

To not understand that unless we are Transformed by Christ, or, to not have the Veil of Moses lifted, we remain under the Law of Sin and Death. This is the entire Purpose of Christ!

We escape the Snare of the Devil by receiving the New Divine Nature, which is the replacement of the Sinful Nature . . . this is the Circumcision of Christ!

2 Peter 1:4 NLT - "And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world's corruption caused by human desires."

There's that Word Escape again. Paul taught that we would "come to our senses" (meaning that we aren't in control of ourselves) by escaping the Snare of the Devil, and Peter tells us how, which is to receive the New, Divine Nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But even then, we will be controlled by the Mind of Christ more and more until the day we finally kick the bucket and stand before the Almighty Presence of God.

Come on! This is the Core of the Gospel!

 

[riverhooks]

The core of the gospel is to not have freewill. Repent . You Can’t . Repent anyway. Believe you can’t believe anyway. Trust . You can’t Trust anyway. Abide you can’t abide anyway. You guys are fun.