Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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there is more than one location that speaks to this event Daniel, Matthew 24 and the Book of Revelation.
Matthew 24 known as the Olivet Discourse Jesus Himself answers the three questions asked by HIS disciples.
in Matt 24:3 :
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,
Matthew 24 known as the Olivet Discourse Jesus Himself answers the three questions asked by HIS disciples.
in Matt 24:3 :
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,
- Tell us, when shall these things be?
- and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
- and of the end of the world?
"They wrath has come" is also stated at the 6th seal:
"And the kings of the earth, and the great ones, and the commanders, and the rich, and the powerful, and every slave and free, hid themselves in the caves, and among the rocks of the mountains. And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Each of these announcements is referring to God's wrath in its fullness, which begins with the opening of the first seal and is completed with the pouring out of the seventh bowl judgment. The announcements are not markers designating where God's wrath begins, as so many have erroneously interpreted, but is referring to God's wrath in its completeness.
The Great Tribulation is indeed God's wrath!
Daniel 9:27 sets the stage for the time period of God's wrath, which is seven years in length. It is the last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. In Matt.24:15 Jesus identified the Great Tribulation as beginning when that ruler/antichrist has that abomination set up in the holy place within the temple which marks the middle of the seven years and covers the last 3 1/2 years until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
It is referred to as the Great Tribulation because it is when the antichrist/beast will set up that abomination in the temple, which is synonymous with the image mentioned in Revelation that the false prophet will have had the inhabitants of the earth make. It is also the time when the antichrist/beast will make war and conquer the great tribulation saints, killing anyone who does not worship the image of the beast.
Those under the altar seen at the opening of the 5th seal, will be those saints who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Their fellow servants and brothers that they are told to wait for, are those who will be killed during the last 3 1/2 year period of that seven years, which are also referred to as the saints who come out of the great tribulation.
The reason that Satan will be full of wrath, is because in middle of the seven years he and his angels will be thrown out of heaven, which is the result of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe and from that time forward he knows that his time is short because he will only have 3 1/2 years before the Lord returns to the earth where at which time he is cast into the Abyss for a thousand years. However, we must keep in mind that the seven years is still God's decree upon Israel and Jerusalem and not Satan's. Therefore, just because the word "wrath' is used does not mean that we should dub this as "Satan's wrath." He will just be angry in the midst of God's wrath because his time will be short.
This is correct in that, those saints who will have been killed during the great tribulation period will be resurrected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. However, it is important to understand that this is not the church which is being resurrected here, but those saints who will have died during the great tribulation, which is a part of God's wrath. The beast, his kingdom, his image and mark, all fall under the time of God' s wrath and will be a test to those upon the earth. This is why the Lord continues to warn believers throughout His word to always be watching for His appearing to gather the church so that the time of God's wrath does not close on us like a trap. For He warns believers about this:
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
What would be the difference between believers who are watching and unbelievers who are not watching, if both enter into the same timer period of wrath? The answer is that, those who are watching, who are having faith and who are not living according to the sinful nature, will escape when the Lord comes to gather His church which takes place prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. Everyone left on the earth during that time will be exposed to God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring. The reason that their will be saints on earth during the time of God's wrath, is because they will have not either been believers prior to the gathering of the church or they will have been believers who had gone back into the world willfully living according to the sinful nature.
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed." - Revelation 15:1
The verse above is of course referring to the seven angels with the bowl judgments given in detail in chapter 16. The fact that the seven last plagues/bowls are referred to as being the "Last" plagues of wrath, infers that there would have to be wrath that comes before them. An example would be if I said, "I was the last one in line to get my concert tickets." If I'm last in line, it means that there would have been other people in front of me. It is the same here. Since the seven bowl judgements as a unit complete God's wrath, then there will have to be other wrath that comes before them, namely, the seals and trumpets.
"And the kings of the earth, and the great ones, and the commanders, and the rich, and the powerful, and every slave and free, hid themselves in the caves, and among the rocks of the mountains. And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Each of these announcements is referring to God's wrath in its fullness, which begins with the opening of the first seal and is completed with the pouring out of the seventh bowl judgment. The announcements are not markers designating where God's wrath begins, as so many have erroneously interpreted, but is referring to God's wrath in its completeness.
The Great Tribulation is indeed God's wrath!
Daniel 9:27 sets the stage for the time period of God's wrath, which is seven years in length. It is the last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. In Matt.24:15 Jesus identified the Great Tribulation as beginning when that ruler/antichrist has that abomination set up in the holy place within the temple which marks the middle of the seven years and covers the last 3 1/2 years until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
It is referred to as the Great Tribulation because it is when the antichrist/beast will set up that abomination in the temple, which is synonymous with the image mentioned in Revelation that the false prophet will have had the inhabitants of the earth make. It is also the time when the antichrist/beast will make war and conquer the great tribulation saints, killing anyone who does not worship the image of the beast.
Those under the altar seen at the opening of the 5th seal, will be those saints who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Their fellow servants and brothers that they are told to wait for, are those who will be killed during the last 3 1/2 year period of that seven years, which are also referred to as the saints who come out of the great tribulation.
The reason that Satan will be full of wrath, is because in middle of the seven years he and his angels will be thrown out of heaven, which is the result of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe and from that time forward he knows that his time is short because he will only have 3 1/2 years before the Lord returns to the earth where at which time he is cast into the Abyss for a thousand years. However, we must keep in mind that the seven years is still God's decree upon Israel and Jerusalem and not Satan's. Therefore, just because the word "wrath' is used does not mean that we should dub this as "Satan's wrath." He will just be angry in the midst of God's wrath because his time will be short.
This is correct in that, those saints who will have been killed during the great tribulation period will be resurrected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. However, it is important to understand that this is not the church which is being resurrected here, but those saints who will have died during the great tribulation, which is a part of God's wrath. The beast, his kingdom, his image and mark, all fall under the time of God' s wrath and will be a test to those upon the earth. This is why the Lord continues to warn believers throughout His word to always be watching for His appearing to gather the church so that the time of God's wrath does not close on us like a trap. For He warns believers about this:
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
What would be the difference between believers who are watching and unbelievers who are not watching, if both enter into the same timer period of wrath? The answer is that, those who are watching, who are having faith and who are not living according to the sinful nature, will escape when the Lord comes to gather His church which takes place prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. Everyone left on the earth during that time will be exposed to God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring. The reason that their will be saints on earth during the time of God's wrath, is because they will have not either been believers prior to the gathering of the church or they will have been believers who had gone back into the world willfully living according to the sinful nature.
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed." - Revelation 15:1
The verse above is of course referring to the seven angels with the bowl judgments given in detail in chapter 16. The fact that the seven last plagues/bowls are referred to as being the "Last" plagues of wrath, infers that there would have to be wrath that comes before them. An example would be if I said, "I was the last one in line to get my concert tickets." If I'm last in line, it means that there would have been other people in front of me. It is the same here. Since the seven bowl judgements as a unit complete God's wrath, then there will have to be other wrath that comes before them, namely, the seals and trumpets.
Gotcha. You were paraphrasing. That's ok to do that sometimes, but other versions are like paraphrases of the 1611 KJV so it can be unclear if those are your words or the words of a different Bible version.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV)
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
These sleeping saints will God bring with Jesus at the time Jesus descends from heaven, with a shout, at the last trump? It's tempting to assume the sleeping saints were in heaven already, but the text doesn't reveal where they came from, only that God brings them with Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV)
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
These sleeping saints will God bring with Jesus at the time Jesus descends from heaven, with a shout, at the last trump? It's tempting to assume the sleeping saints were in heaven already, but the text doesn't reveal where they came from, only that God brings them with Jesus.
FreeGrace2 said:
Right. There are no verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
The phrase "together they shall ASCEND into" isn't found in the Bible.
There are no verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
And no verses say that resurrected and raptured believers will ASCEND at all.
The verses do say that they shall be with the Lord forever. Nothing about ascending or going to heaven, as is so commonly presumed.
Right. There are no verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
The phrase "together they shall ASCEND into" isn't found in the Bible.
There are no verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
And no verses say that resurrected and raptured believers will ASCEND at all.
The verses do say that they shall be with the Lord forever. Nothing about ascending or going to heaven, as is so commonly presumed.
I have. Many times. The dead saints come with Christ from heaven to meet the living believers in the air. So the living believers ascend to the clouds in the air which is the rapture of living believers.
But again, no verse or passage shows Jesus taking these believers to heaven. It is just an assumption.
But again, no verse or passage shows Jesus taking these believers to heaven. It is just an assumption.
When Jesus speaks of His coming, He specified it would be in the post-tribulation time slot, per Matthew 24:29-31.
No verses specify a pre-trib time slot either in plain text or in context. That's definitely the Achille's heel of the pre-trib. We don't need to even debate this. You already know that you and I have talked about this for months.
No verses specify a pre-trib time slot either in plain text or in context. That's definitely the Achille's heel of the pre-trib. We don't need to even debate this. You already know that you and I have talked about this for months.
No it doesn't say that at all.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Jesus said this to His disciples BEFORE His crucifixion. He came back to earth AFTER His trip to Hades and preaching to the spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:19
v.2 is a statement of assurance that His 11 remaining disciples would be in heaven when they die.
v.3 does NOT say Jesus will take them to heaven, but TAKE YOU TO BE WITH ME.
The same message is found in 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Neither passage says anything about going up to heaven after being resurrected and raptured.
The point of John 14:1-3 is about assurance of going to heaven when they died.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Jesus said this to His disciples BEFORE His crucifixion. He came back to earth AFTER His trip to Hades and preaching to the spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:19
v.2 is a statement of assurance that His 11 remaining disciples would be in heaven when they die.
v.3 does NOT say Jesus will take them to heaven, but TAKE YOU TO BE WITH ME.
The same message is found in 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Neither passage says anything about going up to heaven after being resurrected and raptured.
The point of John 14:1-3 is about assurance of going to heaven when they died.
You mean (or should) "at the posttrib rapture" because that is what 2 Thess 2:1 says in clear and simple words.
I was hoping you would take my challenge and quote the verse and put in ( ) the words you thing "coming" and "gathering" mean, so everyone will know what you think the verse means.
So far, you haven't done so.
I was hoping you would take my challenge and quote the verse and put in ( ) the words you thing "coming" and "gathering" mean, so everyone will know what you think the verse means.
So far, you haven't done so.
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We have done so many times, but we shall do it again...
1 Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We see they shall be caught up into Heaven to......
Revelation
19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
The previously raptured ones have been arrayed in fine white linen, attended the marriage supper, and are now ready to return to Earth with Christ at His Second Coming...
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
1 Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We see they shall be caught up into Heaven to......
Revelation
19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
The previously raptured ones have been arrayed in fine white linen, attended the marriage supper, and are now ready to return to Earth with Christ at His Second Coming...
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
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FreeGrace2 said:
I was hoping you would take my challenge and quote the verse and put in ( ) the words you thing "coming" and "gathering" mean, so everyone will know what you think the verse means.
So far, you haven't done so.
I wish people would quit saying that, because as of yet, no one has.
Hold on a minute. Where in this passage in 1 Thess 4 do you even find the mention of heaven? It's not there. What you've bolded doesn't refer to heaven anyway. You think heaven needs or has "air"? The clouds and air refer clearly to earth's atmosphere.
Jesus comes to earth's atmosphere with all the dead saints, and raptures up the living saints.
In fact, the ONLY VERSE that indicates when all this occurs is 2 Thess 2:1.
You have NO verse to justify your words "the previously raptured ones".
What you are doing is conflating different passages that can't be joined.
Amen! This is where Jesus prepares to descend to earth, which is the SECOND ADVENT, with all the dead saints already in heaven.
You didn't meet my challenge. The challenge was to quote 2 Thess 2:1 and put in ( ) your understanding of what the words "coming" and "gathered" mean to you. So I will see how you understand that verse.
Here's my take on it:
Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Now your turn. If "coming" and "gathered" don't refer to the Second Advent and the rapture, then what do they refer to?
I was hoping you would take my challenge and quote the verse and put in ( ) the words you thing "coming" and "gathering" mean, so everyone will know what you think the verse means.
So far, you haven't done so.
I wish people would quit saying that, because as of yet, no one has.
Hold on a minute. Where in this passage in 1 Thess 4 do you even find the mention of heaven? It's not there. What you've bolded doesn't refer to heaven anyway. You think heaven needs or has "air"? The clouds and air refer clearly to earth's atmosphere.
Jesus comes to earth's atmosphere with all the dead saints, and raptures up the living saints.
In fact, the ONLY VERSE that indicates when all this occurs is 2 Thess 2:1.
You have NO verse to justify your words "the previously raptured ones".
What you are doing is conflating different passages that can't be joined.
Amen! This is where Jesus prepares to descend to earth, which is the SECOND ADVENT, with all the dead saints already in heaven.
You didn't meet my challenge. The challenge was to quote 2 Thess 2:1 and put in ( ) your understanding of what the words "coming" and "gathered" mean to you. So I will see how you understand that verse.
Here's my take on it:
Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Now your turn. If "coming" and "gathered" don't refer to the Second Advent and the rapture, then what do they refer to?
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