Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

Yahshua · Jul 16, 2021

cv5 said:

Not necessarily, CV5...

For example, let's say I said, "It's going to take me a month - 30 days - to move into my new home", and then I began listing all the things I needed to do to complete the move in that established time-frame:

- From the time I close until I can actually walk in with keys will be 7 days..

- And then in 2 weeks I'll get my furniture moved over..

- After the 2 weeks I'll be able to cut off my utilities at my old home and then get those accounts transferred over...

- Then I'll make it official for the 1 week with a housewarming party.

- Inside that week I'll be finished with traveling to and from my old apartment.

It doesn't necessarily mean I'll have a 1-week long housewarming party OR that my move will only be official for just 1 week. Rather, in the week that remains I'll make it official and have a housewarming party.

-----

The context of how to read the list of events (given to Jerusalem and Daniel's people) is given in the opening passage of Daniel 9:24 (i.e. "70 'sevens' are determined to do the following stuff...").

Each event will be accomplished at certain moments within the 70 "sevens" time-frame. But it doesn't necessarily mean each event will take as long as described or only last that length of time...especially if it's the very last event to happen in the list. But it's definitely pointing out WHEN those things will happen within that time-frame.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 16, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

...versus the word order at BibleHub (for comparing):

310 [e] 26
wə·’a·ḥă·rê 26
וְאַחֲרֵ֤י 26
And after 26
Conj‑w | Prep 26

7620 [e]
haš·šā·ḇu·‘îm
הַשָּׁבֻעִים֙
the weeks
Art | N‑mp

8346 [e]
šiš·šîm
שִׁשִּׁ֣ים
sixty
Number‑cp

8147 [e]
ū·šə·na·yim,
וּשְׁנַ֔יִם
and two
Conj‑w | Number‑md

3772 [e]
yik·kā·rêṯ
יִכָּרֵ֥ת
shall be cut off
V‑Nifal‑Imperf‑3ms

4899 [e]
mā·šî·aḥ
מָשִׁ֖יחַ
Messiah
Adj‑ms

369 [e]
wə·’ên
וְאֵ֣ין
but not
Conj‑w | Adv

lōw;
ל֑וֹ
for Himself
Prep | 3ms

5892 [e]
wə·hā·‘îr
וְהָעִ֨יר
and the city
Conj‑w, Art | N‑fs

–
6944 [e]
wə·haq·qō·ḏeš
וְהַקֹּ֜דֶשׁ
and the sanctuary
Conj‑w, Art | N‑ms

7843 [e]
yaš·ḥîṯ
יַ֠שְׁחִית
shall destroy
V‑Hifil‑Imperf‑3ms

5971 [e]
‘am
עַ֣ם
the people
N‑msc

5057 [e]
nā·ḡîḏ
נָגִ֤יד
of the prince
N‑ms

935 [e]
hab·bā
הַבָּא֙
who is to come
Art | V‑Qal‑Prtcpl‑ms

7093 [e]
wə·qiṣ·ṣōw
וְקִצּ֣וֹ
and the end of it [shall be]
Conj‑w | N‑msc | 3ms

､
7858 [e]
ḇaš·še·ṭep̄,
בַשֶּׁ֔טֶף
with a flood
Prep‑b, Art | N‑ms

5704 [e]
wə·‘aḏ
וְעַד֙
and till
Conj‑w | Prep

7093 [e]
qêṣ
קֵ֣ץ
the end
N‑ms

4421 [e]
mil·ḥā·māh,
מִלְחָמָ֔ה
of the war
N‑fs

2782 [e]
ne·ḥĕ·re·ṣeṯ
נֶחֱרֶ֖צֶת
are determined
V‑Nifal‑Prtcpl‑fs

.
8074 [e]
šō·mê·mō·wṯ.
שֹׁמֵמֽוֹת׃
desolations
V‑Qal‑Prtcpl‑fp

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/9-26.htm

randyk · Jul 16, 2021

eternally-gratefull said:

Where are you answering the point that this is the Abrahamic covenant being talked about in Dan 9 (not just the Mosaic Covenant)? Where are you answering the point that the 70th Week can be a half Week and still be called "the 70th Week?" And yet, you say you've answered my points. You suggest that it is all summed up in the idea that "prophecy" is future. So when prophecy is fulfilled, it cannot be fulfilled because it can only be "future?"

randyk · Jul 16, 2021

cv5 said:

You're not thinking things through, brother, with all due respect. In two weeks I'm going to get a delivery. I get the delivery in a week and a half. In which week did I get my delivery, in the 1st week or in the 2nd week? Did it still require 2 weeks to get my delivery? Yes. The 2nd weeks was required, even though it wasn't a full week.

In 70 Weeks sin will get atoned for and everlasting righteousness will be ushered in. After 69 Weeks Jesus came and ministered for half of the 70th Week. In which Week was sin atoned for and everlasting righteousness ushered in? In the 70th Week? Yes.

Was the 70 Weeks prophecy fulfilled in 70 Weeks? Yes. Not crazy talk. You just aren't thinking it through.

The 70 Weeks Prophecy was fulfilled at the cutting off of Christ. The clean up operation was the destruction of the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD. The 70th Week was completed in the termination of offering in the midst of Christ's ministry, which confirmed God's covenant with Israel. That's just the way God seemed to portray it. The Half Week suggests the incompleteness of this Prophecy, with respect to the salvation of Israel. It does not suggest either a 7 year covenant or a future 3.5 year Great Tribulation period.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 16, 2021

randyk said:

I did, the answer is no, the context is Lev 26, I told you this already, and I showed you daniels prayer and the passage in Lev 26 he was discussing,

I answered this along time ago, it is cut in half, when the abomination of desolation is place in the wing of the temple rendering it desolate, and mentioned by Jesus in matt 24

1.I answered your questions multiple times, please learn to read
2. prophecy can be seen as fulfilled or yet future, Jesus fulfilled many OT prophecies, they are fulfilled, many he has not yet fulfilled they are yet future

if you can not show something literally came true, then it is still future.

I have told you this also many times. Why you keep insisting I have not answered or said things is beyond me

eternally-gratefull · Jul 16, 2021

randyk said:

You're not thinking things through, brother, with all due respect. In two weeks I'm going to get a delivery. I get the delivery in a week and a half. In which week did I get my delivery, in the 1st week or in the 2nd week? Did it still require 2 weeks to get my delivery? Yes. The 2nd weeks was required, even though it wasn't a full week.

In 70 Weeks sin will get atoned for and everlasting righteousness will be ushered in. After 69 Weeks Jesus came and ministered for half of the 70th Week. In which Week was sin atoned for and everlasting righteousness ushered in? In the 70th Week? Yes.

Was the 70 Weeks prophecy fulfilled in 70 Weeks? Yes. Not crazy talk. You just aren't thinking it through.

The 70 Weeks Prophecy was fulfilled at the cutting off of Christ. The clean up operation was the destruction of the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD. The 70th Week was completed in the termination of offering in the midst of Christ's ministry, which confirmed God's covenant with Israel. That's just the way God seemed to portray it. The Half Week suggests the incompleteness of this Prophecy, with respect to the salvation of Israel. It does not suggest either a 7 year covenant or a future 3.5 year Great Tribulation period.

When God says 7 years he means seven years, not 3.5 years.

we do not interpret scripture to fit our belief system,

we alone our belief system with what scripture says

TheLearner · Jul 16, 2021

eternally-gratefull said:

And, yet no context is given.

cv5 · Jul 16, 2021

randyk said:

You're not thinking things through, brother, with all due respect. In two weeks I'm going to get a delivery. I get the delivery in a week and a half. In which week did I get my delivery, in the 1st week or in the 2nd week? Did it still require 2 weeks to get my delivery? Yes. The 2nd weeks was required, even though it wasn't a full week.

In 70 Weeks sin will get atoned for and everlasting righteousness will be ushered in. After 69 Weeks Jesus came and ministered for half of the 70th Week. In which Week was sin atoned for and everlasting righteousness ushered in? In the 70th Week? Yes.

Was the 70 Weeks prophecy fulfilled in 70 Weeks? Yes. Not crazy talk. You just aren't thinking it through.

The 70 Weeks Prophecy was fulfilled at the cutting off of Christ. The clean up operation was the destruction of the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD. The 70th Week was completed in the termination of offering in the midst of Christ's ministry, which confirmed God's covenant with Israel. That's just the way God seemed to portray it. The Half Week suggests the incompleteness of this Prophecy, with respect to the salvation of Israel. It does not suggest either a 7 year covenant or a future 3.5 year Great Tribulation period.

Come on man.......you've got the entire book of Revelation to contend with. Written somewhere around 95 A.D.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 16, 2021

TheLearner said:

What context do you need?

and he (who is he) shall confirm a covenant for 1 week,

that’s what the passage said, answer or I will conclude you can not answer and move on

GaryA · Jul 16, 2021

eternally-gratefull said:

But, what historicist made the no-rapture claim?

eternally-gratefull · Jul 16, 2021

GaryA said:

I just named a whole group

Anyway google it you will find many, i am not gonna do your homework for you

OldSage · Jul 16, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Okay, so you are thinking that "the people" IS (or is not) connected with the [next word, pretty much...]... H7843 (verb):

"The KJV translates Strong's H7843 in the following manner: destroy (96x), corrupt (22x), mar (7x), destroyer (3x), corrupters (2x), waster (2x), spoilers (2x), battered (1x), corruptly (1x), miscellaneous (11x)."
[--BLB]

to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
1. (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt, be injured, be ruined, be rotted
2. (Piel)
  1. to spoil, ruin
  2. to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
3. (Hiphil)
  1. to spoil, ruin, destroy
  2. to pervert, corrupt (morally)
  3. destroyer (participle)
4. (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)

--BlueLetterBible, https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h7843/kjv/wlc/0-1/

All the translations are hard to follow so i would need to consult a Hebrew scholar on this.

OldSage · Jul 16, 2021

Yahshua said:

The whole prophecy is very intriguing with its demarcation of time. There is an initial 49 year period, 7 weeks, and a final week, but it's curious that if we put it in the mirror, interesting things happen also.

Decree goes out 521BC from Darius, his second year. In the first week the Temple is rebuilt, as in Darius' 6th year it is completed,
517BC. Likewise the last 49 years, 7 weeks. The last 7 weeks are 24AD to 73AD. John the Baptist began his ministry in 26AD, which of course is the point at which Jesus is introduced.

There are many things hidden in the prophecy.

Regarding the completion. The prophecy is book-ended by the 70 weeks needed to seal the prophecy, and to finish the rebellion.
The rebellion was finally quelled in AD73. The rest of the events happen with the time period.

OldSage · Jul 16, 2021

Yahshua said:

Not necessarily, CV5...

For example, let's say I said, "It's going to take me a month - 30 days - to move into my new home", and then I began listing all the things I needed to do to complete the move in that established time-frame:

- From the time I close until I can actually walk in with keys will be 7 days..

- And then in 2 weeks I'll get my furniture moved over..

- After the 2 weeks I'll be able to cut off my utilities at my old home and then get those accounts transferred over...

- Then I'll make it official for the 1 week with a housewarming party.

- Inside that week I'll be finished with traveling to and from my old apartment.

It doesn't necessarily mean I'll have a 1-week long housewarming party OR that my move will only be official for just 1 week. Rather, in the week that remains I'll make it official and have a housewarming party.

-----

The context of how to read the list of events (given to Jerusalem and Daniel's people) is given in the opening passage of Daniel 9:24 (i.e. "70 'sevens' are determined to do the following stuff...").

Each event will be accomplished at certain moments within the 70 "sevens" time-frame. But it doesn't necessarily mean each event will take as long as described or only last that length of time...especially if it's the very last event to happen in the list. But it's definitely pointing out WHEN those things will happen within that time-frame.

Actually, 'the bringing in of everlasting righteousness' seems to be something that happened over 40 years, from Christ's
enthronement, until the complete earthly abolition of the Levitical Priesthood in the last week.
E.G Hebrews 7

randyk · Jul 16, 2021

eternally-gratefull said:

I've tried to explain that we have different positions. My intention is not just to argue back and forth that your position or my position is right. Rather, my intention is to get both of us to understand both of our positions, and then take a look at see what fits best. Otherwise, we're just going to blow past each other.

If you think you've answered my point of view simply by declaring what you believe, you've missed the point. And that's why you don't understand my questions.

randyk · Jul 16, 2021

cv5 said:

You sound like Joe Biden!

I'm not sure you want to sound like him? "Cmon man!" Anyway, the book of Revelation is irrelevant, unless you want to make a point about it?

randyk · Jul 16, 2021

eternally-gratefull said:

I agree with you. If God said "seven years" I'm sure that I would agree with it. But He didn't say "seven years"--He said "one Week."

Now this may translate to you as the equivalent of 7 years, but as I've argued, a 70 Week Period consists of a sequential series of weeks, the last of which may contain any portion of a 70th Week and still amount to a 70th Week. And making a covenant for the 70th Week can represent any portion of the 70th Week and still be a covenant on behalf of the 70th Week.

The point is, the 70th Week finishes off the period of 70 Weeks, whether the 70th Week is a full week or a half week. And since offering is terminated in the midst of the Week, I would have to say that this finishes the 70 Weeks period. It is the end of temple worship, or worship under the Law. The covenant with Israel under the Mosaic Law is terminated, and this ends the 70 Weeks Prophecy.

Now, there is prophecy that continues past the 70 Weeks, and that is the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. As Jesus said, "this generation will not pass away until all this takes place," namely the desolation of the temple and the desolation of Jerusalem.

cv5 · Jul 16, 2021

OldSage said:

The whole prophecy is very intriguing with its demarcation of time. There is an initial 49 year period, 7 weeks, and a final week, but it's curious that if we put it in the mirror, interesting things happen also.

Decree goes out 521BC from Darius, his second year. In the first week the Temple is rebuilt, as in Darius' 6th year it is completed,
517BC. Likewise the last 49 years, 7 weeks. The last 7 weeks are 24AD to 73AD. John the Baptist began his ministry in 26AD, which of course is the point at which Jesus is introduced.

There are many things hidden in the prophecy.

Regarding the completion. The prophecy is book-ended by the 70 weeks needed to seal the prophecy, and to finish the rebellion.
The rebellion was finally quelled in AD73. The rest of the events happen with the time period.

No. It is the decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus of 445BC. Daniel 9:25 speaks to rebuilding Jerusalem (the city), the street and the wall. Rebuilding the Temple is not even spoken of.

randyk · Jul 17, 2021

cv5 said:

Or, Artaxerxes in 457 BC... The rebuilding of the temple and the city were both implied in the original decree of Cyrus. The temple was rebuilt first, but the city remained unfinished.

Each successive king after Cyrus had to contend with Cyrus' original decree to rebuild both the temple and the city. Artaxerxes finished the job. He did make an official decree in 457 BC to restore worship at the temple, which was followed by the sanctioning of the city's rebuilding. Nehemiah had the walls of Jerusalem rebuilt during this time.

The 7 Weeks of Dan 9 corresponded with this time of Jerusalem's rebuilding. Then 62 Weeks followed until the 70th Week, when the Messiah would be cut off. In the midst of the 70th Week OT offerings ended. And after the 70 Weeks elapsed, the temple and the city would be destroyed once again by the Roman Army, the Abomination of Desolation.

OldSage · Jul 17, 2021

randyk said:

Or, Artaxerxes in 457 BC... The rebuilding of the temple and the city were both implied in the original decree of Cyrus. The temple was rebuilt first, but the city remained unfinished.

Each successive king after Cyrus had to contend with Cyrus' original decree to rebuild both the temple and the city. Artaxerxes finished the job. He did make an official decree in 457 BC to restore worship at the temple, which was followed by the sanctioning of the city's rebuilding. Nehemiah had the walls of Jerusalem rebuilt during this time.

The 7 Weeks of Dan 9 corresponded with this time of Jerusalem's rebuilding. Then 62 Weeks followed until the 70th Week, when the Messiah would be cut off. In the midst of the 70th Week OT offerings ended. And after the 70 Weeks elapsed, the temple and the city would be destroyed once again by the Roman Army, the Abomination of Desolation.

Well, those dates are spurious anyhow. Artaxerxes is Darius, so his seventh year was 516AD and his twentieth year was 503AD.

Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

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