Hebrews 6 & 10 DO NOT speak to "losing your salvation"....read on!

FreeGrace2 · Jul 14, 2021

The point is "as if...". They DON'T need Jesus to be crucified all over. It's a one and done kind of a thing.

I don't agree with MacArthur on a lot of his theology, but regarding eternal security he is correct.

Jesus said in John 5:24 that those who believe (present tense) HAVE (as in POSSESS- also present tense) eternal life.

So, this shows that from the very MOMENT one believes in Christ, they possess eternal life.

In John 10:28 Jesus said "I give them (believers) eternal life and they shall never perish."

So it is clear. Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

To argue loss of salvation is a direct contradiction to what Jesus said.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 14, 2021

Absolutely said:

There are no verses that make the point that salvation can be lost. And John 5:24 and 10:28 prove that it can't be lost.

Yes, believers CAN "choose the devil". Paul made that point in 1 Tim 5:15, regarding younger widows: Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

However, none of the passages that describe believers losing faith, etc say anything about losing salvation.

Simon the sorcerer was described as "believed and was baptized", the SAME WORDS used for the townspeople.

Acts 8-
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

If one wants to argue that Simon didn't believe "savingly", then they must also argue that none of the townspeople didn't either.

In fact, if he didn't believe savingly, Peter's response to him would have been different. He spoke to Simon as a disobedient believer, not as an unbeliever.

The ONLY solution for an unbeliever is to believe and be saved, which is how Paul answered the jailer's question in Acts 16:30-31.

The ONLY solution for a disobedient believer is to "get their heart right before the Lord".

21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

If Peter thought Simon wasn't saved, his answer failed miserably. No unbeliever gets saved by turning from wickedness and praying for forgiveness. There is NO verse that teaches this.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 14, 2021

Absolutely said:

Who said it has to "go away"? That's only your opinion about things.

In fact, Heb 6 makes the point that those who have turned back to animal sacrifice WON'T REPENT.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

The red words say very clearly that "if is impossible for those" who are saved "to be brought back to repentance". It says nothing about losing salvation.

The blue words indicate that the impossibility of repentance is "to their loss". Further, the return to animal sacrifice is as if they are crucifying the Son of God all over again, which subjects Jesus Christ to public shame.

The whole point of OT animal sacrifice was a shadow of the reality of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. it was symbolic of what the Messiah would do when He died on a cross.

So, after Christ's sacrifice was made, believers who return to animal sacrifice are acting as though Christ needed to be sacrificed again, which is absurd.

Heb 10 makes it very clear that Christ's sacrifice was "one and for all". One and done.

No more sacrifices need to be made. So doing so only brings shame on the Name of Christ. As if His sacrifice wasn't enough.

Absolutely · Jul 14, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Clever reframe.
To make restoring a believer back to christ THE SAME AS ANIMAL SACRIFICE.

Says nothing at all about what you re engineered those verses to be.
It say ONCE DEPARTING, ( HAVING TASTED OF THE THINGS OF GOD) THEN RETURNING TO THE WORLD, OR THE DEVIL, OR SIN.....IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM.
IOW THEY MADE A CHOICE.
THEY CHOSE THE DEVIL OR THEIR FORMER LIFE.

YOUR ENTIRE DEAL RELIES ON ONE THING ...THAT NOBODY HAS EVER DEPARTED THE FAITH, AND THAT CHOICE IS IMPOSSIBLE.

THAT IS WHY YOU REFRAMED IT.

QUOTE """
In fact, Heb 6 makes the point that those who have turned back to animal sacrifice WON'T REPENT"""
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You made that up out if thin air. It just says they departed the faith.and it is impossible to bring them back.
It goes on to measure men by "bearing fruit vs thorn bushes , that are appointed to burning"

Osas in all cleverness will not make heb 6 go away

cv5 · Jul 14, 2021

Absolutely said:

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us."

John 8:30-33
"As He spake these words many, believed on him.
Then said Jesus to those Jews who believed on Him, IF ye continue in My word THEN are ye my disciples indeed, And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."

I hope that helps........

FreeGrace2 · Jul 14, 2021

Absolutely said:

What did you think the OT animal sacrifices were for?

Doesn't say "renew". It says "repentance". Repentance is a change of mind. By going back to animal sacrifices shows they had no assurance (in their minds) of Christ's once for all sacrifice. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gone back to animal sacrifices.

If you aren't familiar with what actual Greek scholars comment on Heb 6, I suggest you become familiar. Due to extreme pressure on Jewish Christians to return to observing the Law, many were doing so, or thinking about doing so.

No argument.

Uh, that's not what Heb 6 says. Or any other verse.

Jesus Himself taught very clearly that believers CAN depart the faith.

Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

The "falling away" refers to "believing for a while". Jesus said NOTHING about losing salvation.

What you seem to miss is that it is "impossible" for them to repent BECAUSE they have turned back to animal sacrifices.

I recommend that you read the text better than you have.

7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.[/QUOTE]
You seem to think it is the "land" that will be burned. Do you really think you can burn land?? Of course you can't.

It is the production, or "thorns and thistles" that is worthless and "will be burned".

Hmm. Kinda sounds familiar, don'cha think?

Oh yeah. Paul wrote something like this.

1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

v.12 contrasts divine good vs human good.
v.13 states that the believer's work will be revealed by "fire" or judgment, referring to the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ. 2 Cor 5:10.
v.14 refers to divine good production and the believer will receive a reward.
v.15 refers to human good, which is burned up and the believer will "SUFFER LOSS", but then notice what follows immediately:

BUT YET WILL BE SAVED.

There it is, in black and white. The wood, hay and stubble (human good) will be burned up. But the believer YET will be saved.

Same thing as found in Heb 6.

I never tried. That would be ridiculous. In fact, I have explained it to prove that it isn't even about losing salvation.

One has to imagine or ASSUME/PRESUME the text is referring to loss of salvation, because there are NO WORDS to that effect.

Since you don't believe in eternal security, why did you give a thumbs up to my post #43?

Absolutely · Jul 14, 2021

cv5 said:

Keep reading. John also says this;

"""7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."""

Sounds a little "out there" since you, me, and all of us sin.

So we know what is face value in verses is not always a smoking gun to some doctrine we promote.

The problem with osas is that it has a premise. That premise is that nobody has EVER departed the faith and then goes on to suggest they can not.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 14, 2021

Absolutely said:

You are wrong. There is no "premise" with eternal security.

Eternal security is a promise from God. Not a premise.

I gave you John 5:24 and 10:28. Why do you disbelieve these verses?

SomeDisciple · Jul 14, 2021

So how does OSAS deal with verses like John 15:6 and Rom 11:21? Because being cut off and thrown into fire sounds bad.

HatedForNoReason · Jul 14, 2021

cv5 said:

"They went out from us, but they (nonelects)did not belong to us (God's elects). For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us."

Nonelects will never receive the Holy Spirit to begin with because Jesus only died for God's elects.

Matthew 13:3-9

New King James Version

3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

Matthew 13:37-43

New King James Version

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed (good seed are all of God's elects) is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares (all nonelects) are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

2 Corinthians 1:22
New King James Version

22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 15, 2021

SomeDisciple said:

All the warning verses sound bad. Because God's discipline is PAINFUL. Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

John 15-
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesso that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

I included the context to better understand v.6.

In v.3, Jesus makes clear that the 11 He was speaking to were saved. "clean"
The word "remain" refers to fellowship, not relationship. Once saved, the believer IS a child of God. Can you change your birth parents? No. Same in the spiritual sense. God never stops being the believer's heavenly Father.

What Jesus is clearly teaching is that the ONLY WAY to "bear fruit" (v.2,4,5) is to be in fellowship with Him.

How could Jesus be teaching that salvation can be lost when He already taught in John 5:24 that the MOMENT one believes they POSSESS eternal life, and in John 10:28 those He gives eternal life (believers) shall never perish?

Unless one considers the whole council of God, individual verses can easily be misunderstood.

But when all of what Jesus taught is considered, it is clear that He NEVER taught that salvation can be lost.

oyster67 · Jul 15, 2021

cv5 said:

Actually, it is very clear, straightforward, and self explanatory....

2 Timothy
3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];

John
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

No fancy 21st century videos required to understand what our Bible plainly states. He will never forsake us, but in the last days, many will forsake Him and turn apostate.

If you have sinned today, simply repent. Harden not thy heart.

Absolutely · Jul 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

ES IS a premise.
No matter how you slice it.
So is election.

Your premise is what i said it is earlier.

Circular premise....leads to...
" well that ole boy never was saved"

That entire deal lets the lukewarm church incubate in a sloppy walk, with the worlds trappings enjoyed, while pastors reinforce it every single sunday with " you can not lose your salvation. Hey, we all sin, so be encouraged. You gonna make heaven anyway!"

But Jesus said those weak osas carnal pew sitters with a side deal of salvation will be spewed out of his mouth for their lukewarmness like a man mistakenly drinking dishwater.

Absolutely · Jul 15, 2021

Absolutely said:

ES IS a premise.
No matter how you slice it.
So is election.

Your premise is what i said it is earlier.

Circular premise....leads to...
" well that ole boy never was saved"

That entire deal lets the lukewarm church incubate in a sloppy walk, with the worlds trappings enjoyed, while pastors reinforce it every single sunday with " you can not lose your salvation. Hey, we all sin, so be encouraged. You gonna make heaven anyway!"

But Jesus said those weak osas carnal pew sitters with a side deal of salvation will be spewed out of his mouth for their lukewarmness like a man mistakenly drinking dishwater.

Note Jesus says "....out of my mouth"

They were in Christ.
Poooof.....now they are not.

Absolutely · Jul 15, 2021

oyster67 said:

"""Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."""

Ok, did you see where the ones following mcarthur stated that in heb 6 " crucifying the Lord anew" was the equivalent of animal sacrifice and laying on of hands was referring to the priest laying hands on the scapegoat to transfer sin?

That verse you posted is in harmony with paul talking to US THE CHURCH ....not some ....Jewish ot dynamic.

Good find oyster

oyster67 · Jul 15, 2021

SomeDisciple said:

Some say that it is their works that shall be cast forth and burned, but John 15:6 says it is they, not their works, that shall be cast forth and burned. The M.O. for OSAS belief is pretty obvious. Men have always sought for indulgences to sin.

Absolutely · Jul 15, 2021

oyster67 said:

Actually, it is very clear, straightforward, and self explanatory....

2 Timothy
3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];

John
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

No fancy 21st century videos required to understand what our Bible plainly states. He will never forsake us, but in the last days, many will forsake Him and turn apostate.

If you have sinned today, simply repent. Harden not thy heart.

^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^

Absolutely · Jul 15, 2021

QUOTE
"""Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
The "falling away" refers to "believing for a while". Jesus said NOTHING about losing salvation."""

Ok now i see the origin logic of osas premise ..."obviously that ole boy never was saved"

Being in Christ is shaky.
Salvation is what i hope i can sin in.
And certain pastors are equipped to make me happy in a walk that removes Holiness as a target

Look we are all sorta in a state of imperfection.
But holiness is the target.
That target will never happen outside of being red hot for Jesus.

I get one...i get the other.

Osas is AUTOMATICALLY lower the bar or even just setting it on the ground

FreeGrace2 · Jul 15, 2021

Absolutely said:

No, a promise, as I proved in my prior post.

OK then, address John 5:24 and John 10:28 and show where I've erred.

No, election is a fact. The Bible describes a whole lot of people as being elected.

You couldn't be more wrong. I absolutely reject such thinking. When a person is saved, they STAY saved.

I don't make the mistake Calvinists make, when they claim someone who had believed but fails in the Christian life "didn't really believe" after all. That is nonsense. Simon the sorcerer is an example of a believer who's "heart wasn't right with the Lord", as Peter told him.

So you're bothered by stupid pastors who fail to teach the whole council of God.

Along with salvation comes the warnings of God's discipline, which is PAINFUL. Heb 12:11

Just as the Bible teaches parents to DISCIPLINE their children, so God Himself disciplines His own children. And it may not be pretty.

Want to know just how ugly it can get? Well, consider Psa 38-
1 LORD, do not rebuke me in your anger or discipline me in your wrath. 2 Your arrows have pierced me, and your hand has come down on me. 3 Because of your wrath there is no health in my body; there is no soundness in my bones because of my sin. 4 My guilt has overwhelmed me like a burden too heavy to bear. 5 My wounds fester and are loathsome because of my sinful folly. 6 I am bowed down and brought very low; all day long I go about mourning. 7 My back is filled with searing pain; there is no health in my body. 8 I am feeble and utterly crushed; I groan in anguish of heart. 9 All my longings lie open before you, Lord; my sighing is not hidden from you. 10 My heart pounds, my strength fails me; even the light has gone from my eyes. 11 My friends and companions avoid me because of my wounds; my neighbors stay far away. 12 Those who want to kill me set their traps, those who would harm me talk of my ruin; all day long they scheme and lie. 13 I am like the deaf, who cannot hear, like the mute, who cannot speak; 14 I have become like one who does not hear, whose mouth can offer no reply. 15 LORD, I wait for you; you will answer, Lord my God.

How does that sound to you? Did David lose salvation? No, he received God's PAINFUL discipline.

Since you seem to like to quote Jesus when it is expedient to do so, how about addressing what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28 about those He gives eternal life? You know, the ones who SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Can you do that?

The "excuses" listed in your post to deny eternal security are pitiful excuses. They don't hold water.

And....they go AGAINST what Jesus said.

I await your response about John 5:24 and 10:28.

btw, there's plenty more passages that teach eternal security. I'm not stuck on just 2 verses, if you should presume so.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 15, 2021

Absolutely said:

This is hilarious. There are NO verses that state that believers are "in Jesus' mouth". To be "in Christ" was explained by the apostle Paul in Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

To be "included in Christ" means to be "in Christ". How is one to be "in Christ"? Paul said "when you heard the truth and when you believed the truth. And to be "in Christ is to be "sealed in Him with the promised Holy Spirit".

Then, v.14 continues with a PROMISE (not a premise, as you errantly claimed) of eternal security. The indwelling Holy Spirit GUARANTEES our (the believer's) inheritance.

So, how long does this guarantee last? Glad you asked. "Until the REDEMPTION OF THOSE WHO ARE GOD'S POSSESSION".

That's how long.

Hebrews 6 & 10 DO NOT speak to "losing your salvation"....read on!

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