Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

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Oct 23, 2020
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11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.

The Jesuits?
Horn 1 = Futurism
Horn 2 = Preterism

I feel like I've just understood Revelation for the first time
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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That's also known as partial preterism vs. what is known as full preterism.
Incorrect, Sir (or Ma'am).

I reject both as a futurist. This means I believe all of the Olivet Discourse and most of Revelation are future events. PP generally believes most of these have been fulfilled and usually at or near 70AD.
The section in bold is a true statement about Preterists, and specifically the underlined. The difference between a partial preterist and full preterist are the different events they believe were fulfilled in 70 AD...but all believe in 70AD as the end of eschatology.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism#Partial_preterism
Partial preterism (often referred to as orthodox preterism or classical preterism) may hold that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.

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Historicism isn't Preterism (partial or full). It takes the view that the prophecies of Matthew 24, Daniel, Revelation etc occur on the timeline of history (some past, some in the present, and whatever remains in the future), such as:

Destruction of Jerusalem - 70 AD

Antichrist (beast of sea) - 538 AD (views differ among historicists)

Great Tribulation - from 688AD up until 1948 AD (from my perspective)

False Prophet (beast of earth) - 1776 AD (from my perspective)

Day of the Lord (2nd coming) - still future (but right at the door from my perspective)

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicism_(Christianity)
The main primary texts of interest to Christian historicists include apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation. It sees the prophecies of Daniel as being fulfilled throughout history, extending from the past through the present to the future. It is sometimes called the continuous historical view.
 
Jun 9, 2021
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Because the city was razed to the ground. Men, women, children. All decimated. If many Jews didn't flee beforehand no one would've survived the initial blood-lust. There's testimony that during the siege food was cut off and so some even resorted to eating their children.

It's not about the number of deaths, it's about the severity of it all (intensity and duration). If there were only 30,000 people in a town and that entire town was slaughtered: men, women and children alike...with no quarter, no rest or surrendering allowed...and then the town burned with every building that survived the burning smashed to powder, that's considered a massacre.

Secondly, we need to remember that Daniel (as well as the disciples listening the Messiah during the Olivet Discourse) had no concern about "the world". They cared about what was going to happen TO THEM. Their concern was for their people. The Angel and The Messiah were speaking about the great suffering that would befall the Jews that wouldn't be matched "since there was a nation".

What nation of people has suffered (in intensity and duration) for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, since they were expelled from their homeland, more than the Jews?

We have to acknowledge (though some might not want to) that throughout history there were many surviving Jews hated and mistreated by many gentile Christians & Catholics for "murdering the Christ"; also considered "heretics" and "judaizers" to both papal authority as well as to laity and royalty...kicked out of countries...blamed for diseases...and they were also the primary victims of the inquisitions. And on and on throughout history.
So we have the example of Jerusalem 70 A.D. against Rome.

Do you think what Rome did was the first time doing so, or was it a [normal practice] of theirs?



Let's look at the Punic War:
The Siege of Carthage was the main engagement of the Third Punic War fought between Carthage and Rome. It consisted of the nearly-three-year siege of the Carthaginian capital, Carthage (a little north east of modern Tunis). In 149 BC a large Roman army landed at Utica in North Africa. The Carthaginians hoped to appease the Romans, but despite the Carthaginians surrendering all of their weapons, the Romans pressed on to besiege the city of Carthage.
^
Notice the last line:
The Carthaginians hoped to appease the Romans, but despite the Carthaginians surrendering all of their weapons, the Romans pressed on to besiege the city of Carthage.
^
They give Rome their weapons and Rome still destroys them unmercifully.
^
In the spring of 146 BC the Romans launched their final assault and over seven days systematically destroyed the city and killed its inhabitants.


LET'S EXAMINE ROMAN INFANTRY TACTICS:
Roman infantry tactics refers to the theoretical and historical deployment, formation, and then they would use siege weapons and the soldiers to assault the city and burned the city to the ground to prevent its later occupation and use by the enemy.


So tell me, how is Jerusalem any different and more special for having Rome do to them what Rome did to EVERYONE ELSE?
 
Oct 23, 2020
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So, to all the class of 69 weeks

1) What does masah qodes qodes mean?
2) (It's abomination that I even have to ask this, but,) has it been fulfilled, or is part of your unfulfilled bit?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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I am merely asking if he is wrong about Christ, and we already know he is a TRAITOR even to this very day, how much of his account would you find accurate VS making Rome happy about their conquest?
I don't understand the question (specifically the vs. part) but I'm going to answer how I think you mean this...

Firstly. facts are confirmed with corroborating evidence. This is why the rule is to take two or more witnesses to establish truth. No single account is taken as...gospel. There's Josephus' testimony along with Roman testimony along with basic historic records concerning Jerusalem's history and destruction.

Secondly, why would Josephus being a traitor somehow disqualify his testimony? He doesn't need to lie to US or anyone else about what he witnesses because none of us were the people he was writing about or who he allegedly betrayed.

I am going to capitalize this for the importance of it...
THE JEWS GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED FOR BEGINNING A WAR THEY COULD NEVER WIN!
What does this statement of yours have to do with whether they experience the great tribulation or not in fulfillment of scripture?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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So we have the example of Jerusalem 70 A.D. against Rome.

Do you think what Rome did was the first time doing so, or was it a [normal practice] of theirs?

[...]

So tell me, how is Jerusalem any different and more special for having Rome do to them what Rome did to EVERYONE ELSE?
You're missing the point.

Did the city of Carthage have a messiah who warned its citizens that because they rejected him their city would be destroyed because his hedge of protection would be removed? Are we studying other scriptures?

It doesn't MATTER what Rome did to other cities and peoples. All that matters is what happened to the Almighty's people because they rejected His Son. All that matters are these scriptures we study about those chosen people.
 
Jun 9, 2021
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I don't understand the question (specifically the vs. part) but I'm going to answer how I think you mean this...

Firstly. facts are confirmed with corroborating evidence. This is why the rule is to take two or more witnesses to establish truth. No single account is taken as...gospel. There's Josephus' testimony along with Roman testimony along with basic historic records concerning Jerusalem's history and destruction.

Secondly, why would Josephus being a traitor somehow disqualify his testimony? He doesn't need to lie to US or anyone else about what he witnesses because none of us were the people he was writing about or who he allegedly betrayed.
Who was the other witness?

Did we accept the writings of Benedict Arnold when he betrayed the Colonies during the English War?



What does this statement of yours have to do with whether they experience the great tribulation or not in fulfillment of scripture?

I showed you in a second post the Roman Military Tactics. How is what Rome did to the Jews any different than to Carthage or any of the other 50 Wars where they siege the weapons, then kill the citizens, and then burn it to the ground?

Christ said this Tribulation would not be like anything before or after but we see Rome did the SAME THING every War. So how is Jerusalem different if it's the same tactics Rome used Before and After Jerusalem? How does this fulfill Christ's word will never see like it BEFORE nor AFTER but we have proof EVERY Roman War was the same?
 
Jun 9, 2021
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You're missing the point.

Did the city of Carthage have a messiah who warned its citizens that because they rejected him their city would be destroyed because his hedge of protection would be removed? Are we studying other scriptures?

It doesn't MATTER what Rome did to other cities and peoples. All that matters is what happened to the Almighty's people because they rejected His Son. All that matters are these scriptures we study about those chosen people.

Christ said this would be unlike anything seen BEFORE or AFTER. Every Roman War was the same. So we did see it before Jerusalem and after! How are you making something special that is the same ole same same ole with Rome?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Christ said this would be unlike anything seen BEFORE or AFTER. Every Roman War was the same. So we did see it before Jerusalem and after! How are you making something special that is the same ole same same ole with Rome?
Not to mention,

how was all flesh threatened in AD70?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Christ said this Tribulation would not be like anything before or after but we see Rome did the SAME THING every War. So how is Jerusalem different if it's the same tactics Rome used Before and After Jerusalem? How does this fulfill Christ's word will never see like it BEFORE nor AFTER but we have proof EVERY Roman War was the same?
Christ said this would be unlike anything seen BEFORE or AFTER. Every Roman War was the same. So we did see it before Jerusalem and after! How are you making something special that is the same ole same same ole with Rome?
Rome was known for ASSIMILATION of nations, and only what it couldn't assimilate from a people that it conquered it destroyed (4th beast of Daniel).

Prior to rejection of Messiah, Judea was conquered and then ASSIMILATED into the Roman Empire (per their default nature) and forced to pay taxes to Caesar. But when face with the Jews after rejection of Messiah Rome was all about ANNIHILATION. it had "no mercy" on them. Men, women, children all killed within Jerusalem's walls. Slaughtered. Every stone of the temple knocked down and melted for the interlaced gold.

I can't believe this is really an argument.


Matthew 24 [brackets mine]
20 But pray ye that your [YOU JEWS] flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day [YOUR DAY OF REST JEWS]:

21 For then shall be great tribulation [UPON THE JEWS IN CONTEXT], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved [OF YOU JEWS IN CONTEXT]: but for the elect's sake [ROMANS 11 REMNANT OF JEWS ACCORDING TO ELECTION OF GRACE] those days shall be shortened.


Why would Messiah be warning us that we should pray that our escape isn't on the sabbath when MOST CHRISTIANS don't even acknowledge the sabbath???


Luke 21:20-24 (is the sister passage to Matthew 24) [brackets mine]
20 And when ye [YOU JEWS] shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies [THIS BE ROMAN SOLDIERS], then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them [JEWS IN CONTEXT] which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them [WOMEN JEWS] that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress [SAME WORD AS GREAT TRIBULATION] in the land, and wrath upon this people [THE JEWS].

24 And they [THE JEWS] shall fall by the edge of the sword [JEW KILLED], and shall be led away captive into all nations [JEWISH DIASPORA, RECORDED IN HISTORY]: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles [CURRENT STATE OF AFFAIRS], until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled [STILL WAITING].
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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一、分段

1.但以理为恢复圣城祈祷〈1-23〉

2.七十个七的预言〈24-27〉



二、各段的内容

1.但以理为恢复耶路撒冷祈祷

①从耶利米书得知被掳之期将满〈1-2〉。

②特为选民禁食祈祷〈3〉。

③承认被掳是出于自己罪过,也是应得的刑罚〈4-15〉。

承认自己的罪〈20、3-4〉。

承认国民的罪〈20、16〉。

承认列祖的罪〈5-6、16〉。

④求神施怜悯,恢复耶路撒冷〈16-19〉。

⑤祈祷达到神的面前〈20-23〉。

2.七十个七的预言

①为本国之民和圣城已定了七十个七〈24〉。

要止住罪过。

除净罪恶。

赎尽罪孽。

引进永义。

封住异象和预言。

膏至圣者〈所〉。

②出令重建圣城,直到有受膏君时,必有七个七和六十二个七〈25〉。

③在艰难中圣城必重新建造〈25〉。

④过了六十二个七必发生下列之事〈26〉。

受膏者必被剪除,一无所有。

必有一王的民来毁灭圣城和圣所。

必有战争,一直到底。

⑤一七之内将发生之事〈27〉。

他必与许多人订定盟约。

一七之半它必使祭祀与供献止息。

行毁坏可憎的如飞而来。

有忿怒倾在那行毁坏的身上。
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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^ Is this in Chinese for anyone else or is my browser acting up? @soberxp Did you post this in Chinese?
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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^ Is this in Chinese for anyone else or is my browser acting up? @soberxp Did you post this in Chinese?
I think that uesing English is not my first language, so keep the original origin meaning, I choose to use Chinese.

you can use Google translate, or find someone who knows Chinese.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
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一、分段

1.但以理为恢复圣城祈祷〈1-23〉

2.七十个七的预言〈24-27〉



二、各段的内容

1.但以理为恢复耶路撒冷祈祷

①从耶利米书得知被掳之期将满〈1-2〉。

②特为选民禁食祈祷〈3〉。

③承认被掳是出于自己罪过,也是应得的刑罚〈4-15〉。

承认自己的罪〈20、3-4〉。

承认国民的罪〈20、16〉。

承认列祖的罪〈5-6、16〉。

④求神施怜悯,恢复耶路撒冷〈16-19〉。

⑤祈祷达到神的面前〈20-23〉。

2.七十个七的预言

①为本国之民和圣城已定了七十个七〈24〉。

要止住罪过。

除净罪恶。

赎尽罪孽。

引进永义。

封住异象和预言。

膏至圣者〈所〉。

②出令重建圣城,直到有受膏君时,必有七个七和六十二个七〈25〉。

③在艰难中圣城必重新建造〈25〉。

④过了六十二个七必发生下列之事〈26〉。

受膏者必被剪除,一无所有。

必有一王的民来毁灭圣城和圣所。

必有战争,一直到底。

⑤一七之内将发生之事〈27〉。

他必与许多人订定盟约。

一七之半它必使祭祀与供献止息。

行毁坏可憎的如飞而来。

有忿怒倾在那行毁坏的身上。
Thanks for this. I put it through Google translator and while it didn't translate perfectly, I do understand the overall outline.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I would encourage you to consider Matthew 24:34 in light of your statement above. ;)
I have

its why I know everything Jesus says has not occurred yet concerning the abomination of desolation and what is poured out on the desolate afterwords, ;)
 

melinda0185

Junior Member
Nov 3, 2017
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About the phrase "THE ANTICHRIST"...


Consider also:

1 John 2:18 -
"Little children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard [G191] that antichrist is coming, even now many [...]"


This phrase [/word] "ye have heard [G191]" is used, to be speaking of things already having been spoken of in the OT... for example, as used here:


[G191]

Matthew 5:21 V-AIA-2P
GRK: Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη
NAS: You have heard that the ancients
KJV: Ye have heard that it was said
INT: You have heard that it was said

Matthew 5:27 V-AIA-2P
GRK: Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη
NAS: You have heard that it was said,
KJV: Ye have heard that it was said
INT: You have heard that it was said

Matthew 5:33 V-AIA-2P
GRK: Πάλιν ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη
NAS: Again, you have heard that the ancients
KJV: Again, ye have heard that
INT: Again you have heard that it was said

Matthew 5:38 V-AIA-2P
GRK: Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη
NAS: You have heard that it was said,
KJV: Ye have heard that it hath been said,
INT: You have heard that it was said

Matthew 5:43 V-AIA-2P
GRK: Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη
NAS: You have heard that it was said,
KJV: Ye have heard that it hath been said,
INT: You have heard that it was said


...thus, one should consider just where in OT Scriptures this particular thing in 1Jn2:18 ("[as] ye have heard") has already been referenced [I've posted on this Subject in past posts]...

The "[as] ye have heard [G191]" (1Jn2:18) is not speaking merely of what we call "hearsay" or "rumors," or even in the sense of "the word around town is...".
The Antichrist is already here, as John stated n 1 John 4:3. The Antichrist and false prophet have been around and continue in their heresy. Revelation and Daniel (along with Ezekiel), make this obvious. I find it interesting - if John said it was already here - how could it be in the future?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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if John said it was already here - how could it be in the future?
John did not say "The Antichrist is already here". What he said was that "the spirit of antichrist" is present on earth. BIG DIFFERENCE. That means the blasphemous attitude of opposition to Christ is already in this world.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 Joh 4:3)
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2 John 1:7)
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)

The Antichrist is called the Little Horn in Daniel, the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition in 2 Thessalonians, and the Beast in Revelation. His coming will be in the not too distant future.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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I have

its why I know everything Jesus says has not occurred yet concerning the abomination of desolation and what is poured out on the desolate afterwords, ;)
Right, e.g. (y)


And let the reader recall that Luke 21:32 says,

"Truly I say to you that this generation will not have passed away UNTIL [G2193] ALL [G3956] shall have taken place [G1096]."...


... which necessarily must INCLUDE the two "of-lengthy-duration" items that verse 24 had already just mentioned:


"24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations;

and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."




("until ALL shall have taken place" INCLUDES THESE TWO v.24 items!--So also Matt24:34 should be understood in this light.)






note: the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (NOT something like "the Church age")... which STARTED in 606/5bc (think: Neb's "dream / statue / image" with Neb as "head of gold"); and we know that Rev17:8 says, "...[when they behold] the beast that was, and IS NOT [at the time when written], AND YET SHALL BE [FUTURE tense]"... The phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" STARTED in 606/5bc and will not BE CONCLUDED until Christ's Second Coming to the earth (Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 parallel the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23...note v.23]; and Dan2:34-35; and Dan7:20,21,22[/Rev20:4a],25,27 "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven..." [i.e. the earthly MK age / "the age [SINGULAR] to come"]; etc etc...)