2 Thessalonians 2

[FreeGrace2]

All waffle, no scripture

Is that what you had for breakfast this morning?

I had Scripture for and after breakfast.

Hebrews 9:28
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If you read this verse, you will see references to TWO advents. Can you point them out?

 

[OldSage]

Is that what you had for breakfast this morning?

I had Scripture for and after breakfast.

Hebrews 9:28
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If you read this verse, you will see references to TWO advents. Can you point them out?

What I can point out is that you've just contradicted yourself

FreeGrace - Actually, the Bible doesn't need to count the times. God knows people can count for themselves.

 

[Absolutely]

Mayes your inability to acknowledge the word of Jesus Christ the lord is astounding but I’m not interested in endless arguing for no purpose I’m more here to discuss what the Bible says so , God bless

show me the translation that has the erroneous "then" added to it.

my abilities, as you put it, caught your erroneous "then"

 

[Absolutely]

Well, in Hebrews it just says that Jesus will appear again to his church,
it does not specify where. I reckon in the clouds tbh.

But now we have to understand if there is a difference between presence and appearance.

Rev 19 has the 2nd coming. to earth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What I can point out is that you've just contradicted yourself

Ha. Just remember that the Bible DOES clearly teach that Jesus Christ comes to earth TWICE.

Since I haven't memorized the entire Bible, Heb 9:28 slipped my notice. But since the Bible prophesied about Christ's TWO advents to earth, either way, your comment about the count is still quite hilarious. Obviously even you haven't memorized the entire Bible.

 

[OldSage]

Rev 19 has the 2nd coming. to earth.

This has nothing to do with Thessalonians though

 

[OldSage]

Ha. Just remember that the Bible DOES clearly teach that Jesus Christ comes to earth TWICE.

Since I haven't memorized the entire Bible, Heb 9:28 slipped my notice. But since the Bible prophesied about Christ's TWO advents to earth, either way, your comment about the count is still quite hilarious. Obviously even you haven't memorized the entire Bible.

Lol. I'd struggle to memorize a chapter of Matthew.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

show me the translation that has the erroneous "then" added to it.

my abilities, as you put it, caught your erroneous "then"

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s explaining that because it’s what Jesus taught

that is Paul expounding on this day this is “ how “ well Be caught up to him that day

“And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:26-27‬ ‭

it’s those who have gone beforehand in the heavens and also those who are alive the day he returns to earth whatever believers remain of the church alive on earth . Gathered all together from Enoch to the last this same day

“So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this same day

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this same day

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

..Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-34, 41‬ ‭

By this same word of judgement that could be life if believed now being judged as the living

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Rather than the living dead who rejected him

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:25, 27-29‬ ‭

and refused to believe his word

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everyone who will ever be born from Christ forward has the same opportunity to be saved until the end of the world when he returns anyone who puts thier faith in him will be saved in the end

but no one is going to be taken from the tribulation until it’s time ends and he returns

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Consider: The souls under the altar in Revelation 6 are the martyrs from the Dark Ages.
The ones they are waiting on "that should be killed as they were" are those that refuse to worship the beast and are beheaded. (Revelation 13:15; 20:4)
One is past and one is future.
A loooooooooong span of time.
Understand?

Disagree.

And here's why.

Jesus' reference to "the beginning of birth pangs" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11) are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6...

...and Rev1:1 [/ 1:19c / 4:1] had already said that the things being "SHOW[N]" [i.e. from 4:1 onward, thru chpt 19] are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," (in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said of them that THEY are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"); ...SO...

i.e. in a relatively short/limited duration of time [same phrase as is found in both Lk18:8 "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (<--note: "INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON" 2Th1:7-8, time-period) and in Rom16:20 [said to "the Church which is His body"-->] "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--one of the "purposes" for "our relocation" [see also 1Cor6:3,14]).

Thus, I disagree that the 5th Seal martyrs are killed back during the Dark Ages, instead of IN / DURING the future limited trib years (namely, in the first half of those 7 yrs, before the MID-trib point commences, when thereafter the "beheadings" are in effect)

 

[OldSage]

Disagree.

And here's why.

Jesus' reference to "the beginning of birth pangs" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11) are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6...

...and Rev1:1 [/ 1:19c / 4:1] had already said that the things being "SHOW[N]" [i.e. from 4:1 onward, thru chpt 19] are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," (in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said of them that THEY are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"); ...SO...

i.e. in a relatively short/limited duration of time [same phrase as is found in both Lk18:8 "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (<--note: "INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON" 2Th1:7-8, time-period) and in Rom16:20 [said to "the Church which is His body"-->] "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--one of the "purposes" for "our relocation" [see also 1Cor6:3,14]).

Thus, I disagree that the 5th Seal martyrs are killed back during the Dark Ages, instead of IN / DURING the future limited trib years (namely, in the first half of those 7 yrs, before the MID-trib point commences, when thereafter the "beheadings" are in effect)

How do you get from the birth pangs to Revelation 6?
Totally arbitrary.

en tachos means soon btw, as in your example Luke 18:8

 

[OldSage]

Is that what you had for breakfast this morning?

I had Scripture for and after breakfast.

Hebrews 9:28
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If you read this verse, you will see references to TWO advents. Can you point them out?

In reply to your question.

The first time Jesus appeared without sin was when?

And to be honest, if you had digested your scriptural breakfast,
you would be talking not about a second advent, but about a second appearance without sin,
do you not think?

 

[OldSage]

Is that what you had for breakfast this morning?

I had Scripture for and after breakfast.

Hebrews 9:28
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If you read this verse, you will see references to TWO advents. Can you point them out?

It's actually quite a difficult idea which I am just beginning to wrap my head around. Or maybe not difficult,
but just counter-intuitive.

What happens when a thief comes at night?
....
That's right, we don't see him, because
1) It's dark
2) We are sleeping and so our eyes are closed

So. The the thief can COME to our house, we can be in his presence,
but not be aware of the thief, because we do not see him, and because we are not conscious..
I.E. He does not APPEAR to us

5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

en tachos means soon btw, as in your example Luke 18:8

The word "soon" is an adverb: Soon | Definition of Soon by Merriam-Webster





The word in Rev1:1 (and Lk18:8 and Rom16:20), however, is a NOUN: "in QUICKNESS [noun]" :

-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-1.htm [noun]

-- https://biblehub.com/text/luke/18-8.htm [noun] - "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

-- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/16-20.htm [noun]

 

[OldSage]

The word "soon" is an adverb: Soon | Definition of Soon by Merriam-Webster





The word in Rev1:1 (and Lk18:8 and Rom16:20), however, is a NOUN: "in QUICKNESS [noun]" :

-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-1.htm [noun]

-- https://biblehub.com/text/luke/18-8.htm [noun] - "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

-- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/16-20.htm [noun]

So are you a Preterist?
Are you saying Revelation took place in the past?

 

[OldSage]

Robertson on 'en tachos'

Must shortly come to pass (δε γενεσθα εν ταχε). Second aorist middle infinitive of γινομα with δε. See this same adjunct (εν ταχε) in Luke 18:8; Romans 16:20; Revelation 22:6. It is a relative term to be judged in the light of 2 Peter 3:8 according to God's clock, not ours. And yet undoubtedly the hopes of the early Christians looked for a speedy return of the Lord Jesus. This vivid panorama must be read in the light of that glorious hope and of the blazing fires of persecution from Rome.

I suppose the question is the verb here (ginomai)

Do they ARRIVE quickly
or
do they HAPPEN quickly

The primary meaning of ginomai is 'to come into being' which is what I understand here, the events will soon arrive.

Otherwise if you have events which are themselves both speedy (en tachos) and imminent (v4 - engys), then
you will be hard-pressed not to avow yourself a Preterist.

Personally I understand that the events started in the first century and are ongoing.
I think this is called 'Historicism'.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@OldSage (re: your Post #334)...

No, I am not "Preterist".

I believe that "Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1" is saying that the future aspects of that Book (from 4:1 thru chpt 19) are the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

(i.e. the future, specific, LIMITED time-period, aka in "the 7-yr Trib" yrs leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth)




["quickLY," and "SOON" are ADVERBS not found in v.1; ...Rather, the NOUN "in QUICKNESS"... meaning, that WHEN the "things which must come to pass" (1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) do come to pass, it will be "IN QUICKNESS [noun]"... i.e. a relatively short amount of time, aka the "7-yr Trib" leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth at Rev19]

 

[OldSage]

@OldSage (re: your Post #334)...

No, I am not "Preterist".

I believe that "Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1" is saying that the future aspects of that Book (from 4:1 thru chpt 19) are the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

(i.e. the future, specific, LIMITED time-period, aka in "the 7-yr Trib" yrs leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth)




["quickLY," and "SOON" are ADVERBS not found in v.1; ...Rather, the NOUN "in QUICKNESS"... meaning, that WHEN the "things which must come to pass" (1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) do come to pass, it will be "IN QUICKNESS [noun]"... i.e. a relatively short amount of time, aka the "7-yr Trib" leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth at Rev19]

But they are v4 'engys' = imminent

What is your translation of imminent?

 

[FreeGrace2]

In reply to your question.

The first time Jesus appeared without sin was when?

This is why I can't take you seriously. What a really wacko question. Jesus is God, btw, and never sinned.

And to be honest, if you had digested your scriptural breakfast,
you would be talking not about a second advent, but about a second appearance without sin,
do you not think?

Sure I think. I think it is impossible to take you seriously. We have Heb 9:28 which proves there are 2 advents, or comings of Jesus.

It seems you think He was "with sin" in His first appearance.

Heb 4:15 - For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

This was said about Jesus' FIRST appearance, as you seem to like to call it.

Yes, He bore our sins. But He was still WITHOUT SIN. Or do you want to argue that Heb 4:15 isn't true?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's actually quite a difficult idea which I am just beginning to wrap my head around. Or maybe not difficult,
but just counter-intuitive.

What happens when a thief comes at night?
....
That's right, we don't see him, because
1) It's dark
2) We are sleeping and so our eyes are closed

So. The the thief can COME to our house, we can be in his presence,
but not be aware of the thief, because we do not see him, and because we are not conscious..
I.E. He does not APPEAR to us

5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

OK, so what is your point here? It's clear what Paul was talking about. v.5 explains the position of the believer. v.6 commands believers to NOT BE LIKE unbelievers.

Was that your point? Or something else?

 

[OldSage]

This is why I can't take you seriously. What a really wacko question. Jesus is God, btw, and never sinned.


Sure I think. I think it is impossible to take you seriously. We have Heb 9:28 which proves there are 2 advents, or comings of Jesus.

It seems you think He was "with sin" in His first appearance.

Heb 4:15 - For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

This was said about Jesus' FIRST appearance, as you seem to like to call it.

Yes, He bore our sins. But He was still WITHOUT SIN. Or do you want to argue that Heb 4:15 isn't true?

No-one asked you to take me seriously.
You obviously have a very superficial relationship with scripture and perhaps would be better off
fulminating in another less scripture-based thread.