The law of Moses , The ordinance of the angels

[Pilgrimshope]

I often wondered about this verse

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Stephen gives a speech that made me really want tominderstand what was being said.This is what was transpiring the religious of the time of the law and the new Christians were discussing things and Stephen by the Holy Spirit was proving them all wrong who thought they understood thkngs because they had the law . Stephen was trying to convince them of Christ

“And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭6:10-11‬ ‭

In his defense He then launches a defense and rebuke like none other in scripture it’s marvelous in its content and insight and I would recommend it to every Christian who wants to understand the law of Moses and why Paul says a few times the ordinances of the law is the worship of angels

It’s a long speech so I want to make a few selections to get to the point of the ordination of angels presiding over the law and why God turned them over to the angels until Christ came

“And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:30-31‬ ‭

“This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.


This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


( so the point begins of what happened )

And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:35, 37-38, 41-42‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬

and so then later in Paul’s letters we see that he is expecting that this knowledge is understood so he makes more summary statements about what Stephen explained there like the one I began this post with

I don’t know how this will fly in this forum but I’m wondering if anyone would be willing to do a non jidgemental , non accusatory “, non I teach and you listen or you are as heretic “ group study to try to figure out exactly what we are to understand of stephens speech regarding this subject ?

I’m thinking others had noticed some of those verses also and maybe were wondering like I am how to fully understand what this all means I know also if we look at the Old Testament events they are talking about we can understand it better also and find any o the r biblical authored who touched on the subject ?

it’s hard to know each personality when we are communicating with such limited knowledge of each other’s daily lives and character . Sometimes texted words under mean but they actually of we were talking would be perfectly polite because we wouldn’t be imagining the other person screaming at us we’d realize we were just talking .

So I’m wondering if we can just for one post speed freely towards a goal of understanding this subject it seems really important btw I’m part of the arguing and all that as well but was hoping to get past all that and figure out what the concept of angels and the law fully means

Paul’s tying it to the laws ordinances here is why I think it’s important but again I don’t fully get it and I’m hoping someone else is wondering about it also try to get to understand together


“And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:15-18‬ ‭

god bless and I have grace for you to be pretty flawed I hope you can find it for me as well

 

[Mem]

My initial thought regarding the substance of Stephen's rebuke was the defense of a worship of The (primary) Messenger (the voice of the LORD) rather than the strict adherence to the (original) message referred to as 'lively oracles." I mean, when anything is confined to immovable stone, does it not then cease to be lively? So then, when Moses left them to themselves too long, with their inherently rigid constructs of reality, the soon fell back into old habits, the worship of Molech and what a brief research of Rephan showed might've been Saturn. This seem to fit that God gave them up to worship the host heaven, unless I'm misunderstanding the exact or full meaning of 'host of heaven.'

 

[Pilgrimshope]

My initial thought regarding the substance of Stephen's rebuke was the defense of a worship of The (primary) Messenger (the voice of the LORD) rather than the strict adherence to the (original) message referred to as 'lively oracles." I mean, when anything is confined to immovable stone, does it not then cease to be lively? So then, when Moses left them to themselves too long, with their inherently rigid constructs of reality, the soon fell back into old habits, the worship of Molech and what a brief research of Rephan showed might've been Saturn. This seem to fit that God gave them up to worship the host heaven, unless I'm misunderstanding the exact or full meaning of 'host of heaven.'

wonderful thoughts thank you for those can you elaborate on this just a bit ?

“what a brief research of Rephan showed might've been Saturn.”

I’m really seeking this subject

 

[Pilgrimshope]

My initial thought regarding the substance of Stephen's rebuke was the defense of a worship of The (primary) Messenger (the voice of the LORD) rather than the strict adherence to the (original) message referred to as 'lively oracles." I mean, when anything is confined to immovable stone, does it not then cease to be lively? So then, when Moses left them to themselves too long, with their inherently rigid constructs of reality, the soon fell back into old habits, the worship of Molech and what a brief research of Rephan showed might've been Saturn. This seem to fit that God gave them up to worship the host heaven, unless I'm misunderstanding the exact or full meaning of 'host of heaven.'

This seem to fit that God gave them up to worship the host heaven, unless I'm misunderstanding the exact or full meaning of 'host of heaven.'

yes that’s my own hesitancy also , I see a lot out it but I haven’t been able to construct a timeline of this in the Old Testament writings I have found a few things and find a bit each time I seek but I can’t seem to come to understand the construction and events I see it very Vaugely but only as if I for sure know it’s very important but my hesitancy I need mor input from folks like you because I’m not sure about certain aspects and where to go with the idea

Im not sure how it all fits together and why it’s so important in the New Testament tommake the conversion from angels ordination Moses mediation and the levitie priesthood law

, to that of Christ on the order of melchezidek being the one mediator of the eternal covenant rather then Gods voice , given over to angels , given to Moses , given to the people and this part here that Stephen highlights “ received the law by the disposition of angels “makes me wonder about how much imprint the angel left in charge had on the law of its all thier ordination or just the judgement part and unforgiveness

 

[Mem]

wonderful thoughts thank you for those can you elaborate on this just a bit ?

“what a brief research of Rephan showed might've been Saturn.”

I’m really seeking this subject

Given some of the info retrieved is sourced from wiki (although I might start their but would never use it for any sort of primary source), I looked up Molech and Rephan referenced in Acts 7:43, which offered several opinions of their origin.

 

[Blik]

I often wondered about this verse

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.” ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So I’m wondering if we can just for one post speed freely towards a goal of understanding this subject it seems really important btw I’m part of the arguing and all that as well but was hoping to get past all that and figure out what the concept of angels and the law fully means

Paul’s tying it to the laws ordinances here is why I think it’s important but again I don’t fully get it and I’m hoping someone else is wondering about it also try to get to understand together

god bless and I have grace for you to be pretty flawed I hope you can find it for me as well

I think it is the most controversial subject of Christian understanding, and brings out posts that amount to what Christ spoke of as murder. It centers on understanding Paul, and centers on whether Paul tells us the law is dead and is no more or if the spirit of the law is eternal and lasts forever. It speaks to whether the old testament is eternal scripture or did Christ change it. And what is meant by the law in stone that is now a law in our hearts.

I have solved it in my own mind, but when I post about my solutions it gets almost hate for me personally replies. I think it hinges on the difference between the law in stone and the law in our hearts. Christ told of this when he told of the law in stone and explained the difference. Christ said "you were told" and he repeated the law. He did not say that was cancelled but later explained he cancelled nothing of the Father. Christ said "but I tell you" and then explained how that law operated in our hearts.

The law was given in stone in the old testament, and they were told to cut flesh, to not mix fabrics, to eat no food from animals who ate garbage. Freshly rites explained the spiritual truths to people. These are the laws of Moses. God is spirit, these laws explained the spirit but they were not the spirit. When the spirit was given to all at Pentecost, these laws became obsolete. Again, that idea is strongly opposed, it is thought God cancelled what God had ordained so the old testament could be cancelled. If these laws given by God were cancelled, then we must question all in the old testament as being or not being eternal truths of an eternal God.

 

[Mem]

This seem to fit that God gave them up to worship the host heaven, unless I'm misunderstanding the exact or full meaning of 'host of heaven.'

yes that’s my own hesitancy also , I see a lot out it but I haven’t been able to construct a timeline of this in the Old Testament writings I have found a few things and find a bit each time I seek but I can’t seem to come to understand the construction and events I see it very Vaugely but only as if I for sure know it’s very important but my hesitancy I need mor input from folks like you because I’m not sure about certain aspects and where to go with the idea

Im not sure how it all fits together and why it’s so important in the New Testament tommake the conversion from angels ordination Moses mediation and the levitie priesthood law

, to that of Christ on the order of melchezidek being the one mediator of the eternal covenant rather then Gods voice , given over to angels , given to Moses , given to the people and this part here that Stephen highlights “ received the law by the disposition of angels “makes me wonder about how much imprint the angel left in charge had on the law of its all thier ordination or just the judgement part and unforgiveness

I think we may be approaching from opposing view here, On my part, when God gave them to the worship of the hosts of heaven, He was given them over to that lesser than Him, which includes basically everything, moon, stars, bulls, fire, etc. etc. etc. I don't believe this to be implying in anyway that the referenced angel in the bush, the voice of God, is anything less than God Himself. However, their failure to recognize Him as Who He Actually Is, as He revealed Himself to them as YHVH, exasperated their tendency toward the adoption of idols.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think it is the most controversial subject of Christian understanding, and brings out posts that amount to what Christ spoke of as murder. It centers on understanding Paul, and centers on whether Paul tells us the law is dead and is no more or if the spirit of the law is eternal and lasts forever. It speaks to whether the old testament is eternal scripture or did Christ change it. And what is meant by the law in stone that is now a law in our hearts.

I have solved it in my own mind, but when I post about my solutions it gets almost hate for me personally replies. I think it hinges on the difference between the law in stone and the law in our hearts. Christ told of this when he told of the law in stone and explained the difference. Christ said "you were told" and he repeated the law. He did not say that was cancelled but later explained he cancelled nothing of the Father. Christ said "but I tell you" and then explained how that law operated in our hearts.

The law was given in stone in the old testament, and they were told to cut flesh, to not mix fabrics, to eat no food from animals who ate garbage. Freshly rites explained the spiritual truths to people. These are the laws of Moses. God is spirit, these laws explained the spirit but they were not the spirit. When the spirit was given to all at Pentecost, these laws became obsolete. Again, that idea is strongly opposed, it is thought God cancelled what God had ordained so the old testament could be cancelled. If these laws given by God were cancelled, then we must question all in the old testament as being or not being eternal truths of an eternal God.

yes it seems controversial but it’s also very evident in scripture and it has a full story that goes with it . It does me no good to force my own understanding on myself and ignore what’s there

I was sort of with this post hoping to not argue our conclusions about the laws validity for us we already understand from the apostles that it’s not Christian doctrine

This was the matter

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this was the answer from the feathering of apostles

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s not Christian doctrine for sure . What this post was inquiring is what’s meant biblically by the doctrine that’s everywhere when you start looking about this

“Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:53‬ ‭KJV‬

and when this happened

“And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:41-42‬ ‭

so those ordinances in the law how much of the angels disposition is imprinted on them ? Given they were made to worship the angels of heaven and this one was left in charge after they worshipped the calf

this seems to be the point it happened after they worshipped the calf


“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s not Jesus and we can all agree on that part he does pardon sins and offers repentance. So how much of this powerful angel who was given this power and authority on earth to hold men’s sins against them with Gods authority , how much of his disposition is in the law ?

 

[Mem]

I missed the 5 minute window again...

I wanted to add that He revealed Himself as YHVH, detailed with the 13 attributes of God's mercy (Exodus 34:6). I think the Israelites grossly missed in that understanding of Him, as they were afraid in a way whereas Moses fully believed to be comfortable enough in approaching Him.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think we may be approaching from opposing view here, On my part, when God gave them to the worship of the hosts of heaven, He was given them over to that lesser than Him, which includes basically everything, moon, stars, bulls, fire, etc. etc. etc. I don't believe this to be implying in anyway that the referenced angel in the bush, the voice of God, is anything less than God Himself. However, their failure to recognize Him as Who He Actually Is, as He revealed Himself to them as YHVH, exasperated their tendency toward the adoption of idols.

Yes and I believe with all My heart it’s okay if we come from opposing views I’m looking for thoughts I don’t already have that I can add to my own so speak freely without offense taken

do you think that Stephen is talking about this event being when this happened him turning them over to the host of heaven to worship them ?

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin―; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the Lord plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:7-11, 14, 31-35‬ ‭


is this when he turned then over to the worship of angels ? And is this Theo me left in charge of the disobedient ?

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what I’m asking is , is this what Stephen is saying here

“To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:39-42, 53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you think these things connect at all or am I on a wild goose chase ? I’m honestly asking

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I missed the 5 minute window again...

I wanted to add that He revealed Himself as YHVH, detailed with the 13 attributes of God's mercy (Exodus 34:6). I think the Israelites grossly missed in that understanding of Him, as they were afraid in a way whereas Moses fully believed to be comfortable enough in approaching Him.

Yes I think they were still part of adams creation after sin came to
Man

“And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:8, 10‬ ‭

So receiving the law they said

“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭5:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but then the born again hear this and come near in Christ who does formoir sins and said

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24‬ ‭

we need to believe the New Testament perception of eternal life in his word not death.

 

[Mem]

Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:39-42, 53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you think these things connect at all or am I on a wild goose chase ? I’m honestly asking

I believe the first is concerning anything created and the latter speaks to the approval of our keepers, those created beings that keep us, however and/or albeit received unfaithfully.

 

[Mem]

As I continue to ponder on all the things that would qualify as a created thing, an therefore prohibited from our worship, it struck me that even a day is a created thing... i.e. this is the day that the LORD has made.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I believe the first is concerning anything created and the latter speaks to the approval of our keepers, those created beings that keep us, however and/or albeit received unfaithfully.

so the first you are seeing as this host of heaven in genesis 1 as the physical creation ? That makes sense on a certain plain to me if Im understanding what you are meaning to say “ man was turned over to worship the created things rather than the creator “?


“And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day,

and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:14-18‬ ‭


So you are seeing both aspects from the beginning of I’m not mistaken you are seeing this

“And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. “

and also this

“And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day,

and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, “

your seeing spiritual light and also physical light there at creation ?

 

[Mem]

so the first you are seeing as this host of heaven in genesis 1 as the physical creation ? That makes sense on a certain plain to me if Im understanding what you are meaning to say “ man was turned over to worship the created things rather than the creator “?


“And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day,

and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:14-18‬ ‭


So you are seeing both aspects from the beginning of I’m not mistaken you are seeing this

“And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. “

and also this

“And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day,

and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, “

your seeing spiritual light and also physical light there at creation ?

The sun and the moon, the moon being lesser because it is of terrestrial(?' not sure if this is the word I'm reaching for) material that reflects the light of the greater, sun, made of fire which emits light rather than merely reflecting it.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

As I continue to ponder on all the things that would qualify as a created thing, an therefore prohibited from our worship, it struck me that even a day is a created thing... i.e. this is the day that the LORD has made.

Yes he created even us in his image but we distorted it and perverted the earth and ourselves

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-28, 31‬ ‭

everything is good man is in dominion on earth God fellowships with them in Eden the high place

So man was given the earth to for our own to rule in Gods will and purposes we were to bless the earth with our dominion in his will doing good and not evil

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


But then we followed Satans word and will having dominion and this happened to crearion the very good creation handed to mankind’s dominion in only ten generations look at how we had perverted and cursed everything having dominion over it


“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He continues explaining the justice in it

“The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I think that’s why In the end we have a new world promised and this ones doomed for sin

“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Even the death of the earth and its “resurrection “ is in the image of God

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The sun and the moon, the moon being lesser because it is of terrestrial(?' not sure if this is the word I'm reaching for) material that reflects the light of the greater, sun, made of fire which emits light rather than merely reflecting it.

amen !!!

and so the order of creation is a foretelling of the spiritual things found in Christ

what I mean is this that is natural comes first But it’s foretelling what came later the natural forst and then the spiritual truth

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this then is the spiritual

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yes both were created from the beginning but the spiritual was hidden until the sun rose in Christ


I’m wondering if the angel over the law is the lesser light and possibly one of the sons of the morning ?

 

[Mem]

amen !!!

and so the order of creation is a foretelling of the spiritual things found in Christ

what I mean is this that is natural comes first But it’s foretelling what came later the natural forst and then the spiritual truth

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this then is the spiritual

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yes both were created from the beginning but the spiritual was hidden until the sun rose in Christ


I’m wondering if the angel over the law is the lesser light and possibly one of the sons of the morning ?

I'm not sure about that as much as I'm sure that, if I can express the idea adequately, that revealed is greater than that which is hidden, although they be, in actuality, the same. Moses law was not given without the temple and provided sacrifice, although merely reflections of the reality to be manifested in advent of Christ, which the (as opposed to the usage of an indefinite article that would indicate 'one of' and so indicate the definite or specifically particular ) Angel of the LORD proclaimed (and I'm relatively speaking here), 'Let there be."

 

[Yahshua]

I often wondered about this verse

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Stephen gives a speech that made me really want tominderstand what was being said.

Hi Pilgrimshope,

Just sharing my POV from studies...

What we often see in scripture - and what's explained by Paul in Romans - is whenever man sins, one of the punishments the Almighty has is to "give them over" to their sin. The children of Israel, after agreeing to abide by the commands of the Almighty, began worshiping a golden calf. But this wasn't just a bovine that was golden. This was the Apis Bull (an Egyptian deity).

Now, all deities of paganism are either fallen angels (like those of Genesis 6 who came down from their estate and sinned with man) or idolization of the stars/constellations of heaven. Both groups fall under the category "the host of heaven". If you cross-reference the Apis Bull with the word "constellation" it should lead you to the actual constellation of Taurus. So Israel's punishment was that they would continue to deal with the problem of idolizing false gods...which they did.


Amos 5:26-27 (Acts 7:42-43)
25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.


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As far as "the law...added because of transgressions...ordained by angels"; it's incidental that it was delivered by angels, as that was the angels' true job. Angels = Messengers of the Most High.

The people, 2 months after marrying the Husbandman, committed adultery and deserved death (which is the true consequence of a blood covenant)...but the Husbandman had mercy on them, at the pleading of Moses, though they remained in violation...

...So the alternative punishment was "So that I don't kill you where you stand, you must follow these (bloody) cleansing ordinances that I am sending you through my messenger - as a constant memorial/reminder of your crime to me on this day - until the One comes who can truly pardon you". The punishment wasn't "that angels will deliver to you their law that you must follow in worship of them."

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Now, it IS a bit of poetic justice on the Almighty's part that they would be forced to kill the calf they worshiped as god, if you ask me.

-----

Note that the commandments (and initial laws of how to tread their neighbors) were given to Israel BEFORE they sinned, while the ordinances & cleansing rituals were added AFTER they sinned. It's unfortunate that everything gets grouped together under "LAW" because it's difficult to see the nuances when reading Paul's letters.

Fast-forward centuries to the time of the Pharisees. These ordinances & cleansing rituals - which were only added because of Israel's transgression - had become woven into the fabric of Temple service and entangled with the commandments, as "all delivered by Moses"...but the additions were always "mock shadows" prophesying what the Messiah would accomplish.

The religious leaders rejected the gospel because by being the administrators of these temple rites & ordinances it gave them authority over the people as "leaders"...so they falsely accused the apostles of "speaking against the Law of Moses" to maintain their grasp on power.


Acts 6:13
13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:


Steven attempted to explain to them that they were hypocrites when it came to the law (same accusation Messiah levied) and murderers of the Messiah who was to come and fulfill the ordinances & rituals to cleanse sin.


Acts 7:52-53
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

----

From Mt. Sinai, the truth was ALWAYS: Obey the Commandments and have faith in Messiah (i.e. The One who'd come with the Almighty's words in His mouth), with the ENTIRE nation to become priests (not just the Levites). But because they violated the covenant, the ordinances & ritual were added as His placeholders - and administered by the Levites (since they're the only tribe who sided with Moses during the incident) - until the Messiah appeared to fulfill them all and redeem Israel back to the original plan to be a nation of priests.

 

[Gideon300]

I often wondered about this verse

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Stephen gives a speech that made me really want tominderstand what was being said.This is what was transpiring the religious of the time of the law and the new Christians were discussing things and Stephen by the Holy Spirit was proving them all wrong who thought they understood thkngs because they had the law . Stephen was trying to convince them of Christ

“And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭6:10-11‬ ‭

In his defense He then launches a defense and rebuke like none other in scripture it’s marvelous in its content and insight and I would recommend it to every Christian who wants to understand the law of Moses and why Paul says a few times the ordinances of the law is the worship of angels

It’s a long speech so I want to make a few selections to get to the point of the ordination of angels presiding over the law and why God turned them over to the angels until Christ came

“And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:30-31‬ ‭

“This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.


This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


( so the point begins of what happened )

And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:35, 37-38, 41-42‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬

and so then later in Paul’s letters we see that he is expecting that this knowledge is understood so he makes more summary statements about what Stephen explained there like the one I began this post with

I don’t know how this will fly in this forum but I’m wondering if anyone would be willing to do a non jidgemental , non accusatory “, non I teach and you listen or you are as heretic “ group study to try to figure out exactly what we are to understand of stephens speech regarding this subject ?

I’m thinking others had noticed some of those verses also and maybe were wondering like I am how to fully understand what this all means I know also if we look at the Old Testament events they are talking about we can understand it better also and find any o the r biblical authored who touched on the subject ?

it’s hard to know each personality when we are communicating with such limited knowledge of each other’s daily lives and character . Sometimes texted words under mean but they actually of we were talking would be perfectly polite because we wouldn’t be imagining the other person screaming at us we’d realize we were just talking .

So I’m wondering if we can just for one post speed freely towards a goal of understanding this subject it seems really important btw I’m part of the arguing and all that as well but was hoping to get past all that and figure out what the concept of angels and the law fully means

Paul’s tying it to the laws ordinances here is why I think it’s important but again I don’t fully get it and I’m hoping someone else is wondering about it also try to get to understand together


“And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:15-18‬ ‭

god bless and I have grace for you to be pretty flawed I hope you can find it for me as well

It helps to realise that an angel is literally a messenger. Satan was able to win a third of the angels to his side, so there are evil angels as well as those who serve God.

Fallen humanity is enticed by Satan to worship anyone and anything except Him who is worthy, our God and King, Lord Jesus. Christians know (or should know) better.

Wicked angels work to entice people into false and antichrist activities. Where did Hinduism originate? From evil angels, messengers of Satan, leading the darkened mind astray. How did Buddhism start and take root? Where did Mohamed get his ideas for religion from? How did so many get deceived by Islam? It's Satan's work.

We know that angels directly contact people from time to time, Mary and Joseph being the obvious ones. There have been many more, of course. I've had help from mysterious people that may well have been angels. However, who is more important? Do we bow down to the postman when he delivers a letter with good news or a cheque? No, our appreciation is for the sender, not the one who delivers the letter.

We may see the postman as he delivers the letter or we may not. The end result is the same. It would be silly to boast that we saw the postman as if it made us special. Of course, God's creation is glorious and angels are magnificent. We need not be overawed, as John was advised in the Book of revelation. And for sure we are not special if we've met an angel. God chooses how to convey His messages. He chooses how to help His people. Angels are one means. "Angel" sounds more impressive than "heavenly postman", but let's be more concerned with the message than the messenger.