2 Thessalonians 2

[Absolutely]

“Again, you are in denial mode.”

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the elect eill be gathered immediately after the tribulation as the world ends when the sun goes dark and stars plummet

are you sure that he’s in denial about the ore tribulation rapture ? Given the lord himself agrees with his interpretation ?

I know we could quote several scripturesigfesting either way but isn’t what e lord said really super clear as a place to set our understanding and then branch out to Paul his witness ? Since you care about what he said specifically

who also taught the same “ rapture “ on the very last day Paul’s saying that some of the church will be alive and remaining when Christ returns so they couldn’t have been raptured

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭


Unless Christs return isn’t at the end after the tribulation then the “rapture “ happens upon his return in the end both the wicked and righteous are gathered

“So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ will return and when he does it’s over then he will gather his people after all the tribulations which began 2600 years ago have passed

There really isn’t a stitch of pre trib raptire doctrine in the Bible or all is based on what Jesus said

Pure baloney.
Re read your foundation.
Angels gather....not Jesus.

They gather from heaven....not earth.

You have not presented ANYTHING resembling a postrib rapture
Zero

 

[Evmur]

No, it doesn't, you have conflated the scriptures. The After the Tribulation point should be thrown away, a 5th grader could understand that we are saying the Raptured Church comes back with Jesus yet you use it over and over and it just honestly makes e shake my head, you have to be disingenuous or just simply have tunnel vision. Using that verse for that point absolutely makes zero sense, and if Satan can confuse us on that scripture alone, Lord help us would be my prayer.

The Church is WITH Jesus in Matt. 24:29-31 when he returns, GO LOOK at Rev. 19 we Marry the Lamb and COME BACK WITH HIM. This is like, I can't explain how tedious it is to see people who can't get this. The problem is, Satan wants the youth and others not to be ready, it wins him souls because way too many who are not Raptured will not make it, they will be threatened via a loved one's life, and they will cave in and take the Mark of the Beast. These youth who are already weak, need to understand the truth, you better be ready at the Pre Trib Rapture, but many are told (and yes it angers me as a preacher of 35 years to hear this) you have time, you have to go through the Tribulation anyway, so just don't worry about it now, you can make that decision later on. THAT'S HOW THEY THINK, via what you guys tell them, the Saints have to go through the Tribulation? Really, well, I have to EARN my way to heaven I guess, so why worry about it now. When you get to heaven and understand that the Pre Trib Rapture was true all along, and understand many might have been saved if warned correctly, that's going to be a bad thing to understand, of course, all guilt will be wiped away.

Jesus is speaking to the Jews, and in Rev. 19 the Church Returns with Jesus.

You are leaving out the 1, 000 year reign between the rapture and the 2nd or general resurrection when Jesus does indeed bring us with Him to judge the living and the dead.

 

[Absolutely]

The church needs to distinguish between TRIBULATION and GOD'S WRATH. They are 2 different things. We are saved from God's wrath but we are not saved from tribulation, in Christ we must overcome tribulation.

Tribulation means trouble, it comes from the world, "in the world you will have tribulation" it means more specifically persecution. The GREAT TRIBULATION is the great end time persecution we are warned to expect.

We will be raptured AFTER the tribulation of those days but before God's wrath is poured out upon those who troubled us.

Not true
The entire 7 yr period is the gt

mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"After the trib" is after the wrath according to Jesus.
So Jesus frames the entire 7 yr period as the great trib.

 

[Evmur]

You are making this stuff up Evmur.
There are no clouds and the church in the clouds in 2T2.
That is your fiction, or a fiction you picked up somewhere.

He sojourns in the Temple acting as though he were God.
Precisely what Eleazar did. He moved into the Temple with his troops,
that is to say he LIVED in the Temple, so literally he carried on as though he was God,
since the Temple is God's House.
Think of a squatter acting as though he is the proprietor, if that helps.

If you won't learn you won't learn.

 

[OldSage]

One of the examples I provided:

--Acts 2:16-17 - "having been spoken of through [dia] the prophet Joel:..." ... where Joel 2:28-32 spells out, "And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh. [...]" and where practically the entire chapter is "what he [/someone else] says" (namely, the LORD; not Joel himself):


.......Acts 2:16-17, "16 But this is that which was spoken through [dia] the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

.......Joel 2:28-32 [so this is what was "having been spoken of through [dia] the prophet Joel"], "28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call."



Where is Joel himself shown to be "speaking" in this Joel text, like Acts [supposedly] says he does, according to your view...?



Likewise, in Daniel 12, who is it saying "And one said to..." (v.6) and "then said I" (v.8) and "And he said" (v.9)... etc?



[btw, I believe I've see the same types of things when the word "hupo / hypo" is used instead of "dia"... and apparently there is even some question as to whether or not that particular phrase is found in Mark 13:14, according to the "markings" ( < > ) showing at BibleHub: https://biblehub.com/text/mark/13-14.htm (second column)... and showing in this LISTING of versions of that verse: https://biblehub.com/parallel/mark/13-14.htm ]

But you are simply confirming my points TDW.

ereo dia prophetes ioel - spoken by the prophet Joel

These were the words spoken, that came from Joel's mouth.
Now check back to Joel 1

''Hear this, you elders''

Et voila - confirmed.

 

[OldSage]

If you won't learn you won't learn.

If you want to entertain fictions - up to you.

Jesus comes right after a 7 year tribulation
A big bogey man will sit in the Temple for 3.5/7 years
The church will be vamooshed but the Jews will be tormented

All totally absurd and fly in the face of scripture. Conversely:

The Jews will end their 2000 odd year diaspora and tribulation, and all be brought in to Christ.
Christ will later return when those outside the church are lolling around living like they did in Noah and Lot's days.....
living for the lusts of the flesh and for strange flesh.
This is all scriptural.

 

[Runningman]

Although I disagree with rondonmon on other points, such as the constitution of the elect, I do I agree in that the grammar rule usage in the phrase 'if it were possible' are indicative of a negative such like one would use the word 'were' rather than 'is' that would indicate the positive. For example, consider the contrast between, "If I were a rich man, then I could buy...(as in really can't)" and, "If I am a rich man, then I could buy... (as in truly can)"

My line of thinking is that Jesus neither explicitly confirms nor denies that it is possible for the elect to be deceived, but he raises the possibility. I don't think Jesus introduced the possibility of being deceived and then immediately said it could never happen. I think He brought this up and expounded on the matter in order to let people know what to expect so they can't be deceived. However, deception is a lingering possiblity if people don't know the scripture.

We can find real world, present day, examples of elect children of God being deceived, maybe even on this message board.

Also, what is your opinion on the wording of other translations of Matthew 24:24? Are they clearer, useful, or not helpful?

I'll only show a handful.

Matt. 24:24
New International Version
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

New Living Translation
For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.

English Standard Version
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Berean Study Bible
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

Berean Literal Bible
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

King James Bible
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

New King James Version
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

New American Standard Bible
For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

 

[OldSage]

One of the examples I provided:

--Acts 2:16-17 - "having been spoken of through [dia] the prophet Joel:..." ... where Joel 2:28-32 spells out, "And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh. [...]" and where practically the entire chapter is "what he [/someone else] says" (namely, the LORD; not Joel himself):


.......Acts 2:16-17, "16 But this is that which was spoken through [dia] the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

.......Joel 2:28-32 [so this is what was "having been spoken of through [dia] the prophet Joel"], "28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call."



Where is Joel himself shown to be "speaking" in this Joel text, like Acts [supposedly] says he does, according to your view...?



Likewise, in Daniel 12, who is it saying "And one said to..." (v.6) and "then said I" (v.8) and "And he said" (v.9)... etc?



[btw, I believe I've see the same types of things when the word "hupo / hypo" is used instead of "dia"... and apparently there is even some question as to whether or not that particular phrase is found in Mark 13:14, according to the "markings" ( < > ) showing at BibleHub: https://biblehub.com/text/mark/13-14.htm (second column)... and showing in this LISTING of versions of that verse: https://biblehub.com/parallel/mark/13-14.htm ]

But you know that a prophet is the mouthpiece of the Lord.
So when Moses spoke it was as though the Lord was speaking.
When Joel spoke, like any prophet, he was simply a mouthpiece for the Lord.
To try to claim that Joel didn't actually speak is absurd and faintly heretical.
The prophets suffered terrible things, and their calling was pretty terrifying.
Why? Because they opened their mouths!!!!!!!!
Goodness me, you don't half wriggle to defend yourself.
It's embarrassing TDW, really really embarrassing.

 

[Mem]

My line of thinking is that Jesus neither explicitly confirms nor denies that it is possible for the elect to be deceived, but he raises the possibility. I don't think Jesus introduced the possibility of being deceived and then immediately said it could never happen. I think He brought this up and expounded on the matter in order to let people know what to expect so they can't be deceived. However, deception is a lingering possiblity if people don't know the scripture.

We can find real world, present day, examples of elect children of God being deceived, maybe even on this message board.

Also, what is your opinion on the wording of other translations of Matthew 24:24? Are they clearer, useful, or not helpful?

I'll only show a handful.

Matt. 24:24
New International Version
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

New Living Translation
For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.

English Standard Version
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Berean Study Bible
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

Berean Literal Bible
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

King James Bible
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

New King James Version
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

New American Standard Bible
For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

I think these show the direct intent of the deception, However futile it might 've been, Satan still tried to tempt Jesus. In this case, I believe it to be an offering of caution to those with ears to hear (true believers) to shield against this for the incurrence of the less injurious result, i.e., Jesus resisted though I imagine what were very taxing temptations.

 

[OldSage]

I think these show the direct intent of the deception, However futile it might 've been, Satan still tried to tempt Jesus. In this case, I believe it to be an offering of caution to those with ears to hear (true believers) to shield against this for the incurrence of the less injurious result, i.e., Jesus resisted though I imagine what were very taxing temptations.

Maybe it means if they did not have the Holy Ghost then they could be deceived?
(The HG guides in all truth)

 

[Mem]

Maybe it means if they did not have the Holy Ghost then they could be deceived?

That may be implied, yes, that the only way to not fall for the deception, because it will be performed, is to be indwelt with Him that reveals all truth.

 

[Runningman]

I think these show the direct intent of the deception, However futile it might 've been, Satan still tried to tempt Jesus. In this case, I believe it to be an offering of caution to those with ears to hear (true believers) to shield against this for the incurrence of the less injurious result, i.e., Jesus resisted though I imagine what were very taxing temptations.

I just don't see anywhere in the scripture that says it's impossible for the elect to be deceived. I have read a commentary on Matthew 24:24 which claims the elect cannot be deceived which didn't provided enough Biblical support.

In fact, I would think that being so sure and proud of one's resistance to deception is a foot in the door for covert deception.

Maybe it matters what people can be deceived about. Since God will lose none of His own, I can be confident that I cannot be deceived into matters leading to being lost. However, there are a myriad of different opinions and doctrines Christians hold. Is everyone right or is there a lot of deception going on?

 

[Mem]

I just don't see anywhere in the scripture that says it's impossible for the elect to be deceived. I have read a commentary on Matthew 24:24 which claims the elect cannot be deceived which didn't provided enough Biblical support.

In fact, I would think that being so sure and proud of one's resistance to deception is a foot in the door for covert deception.

Maybe it matters what people can be deceived about. Since God will lose none of His own, I can be confident that I cannot be deceived into matters leading to being lost. However, there are a myriad of different opinions and doctrines Christians hold. Is everyone right or is there a lot of deception going on?

I get that, many claim Holy Spirit revelation about doctrinal matters involving Jesus. However, personally, I lean toward the deception being a complete un-believing in Jesus. IOW, not that anyone might claim to be Christ but that they'll claim to be God. I mean, not so much as saying, "I'm Jesus" but that, "I'm 'the real' Messiah." Wherein those undeceived will know, "You are no Jesus," because they know Him even if unsure about the more intricate details of scripture.

 

[Runningman]

I get that, many claim Holy Spirit revelation about doctrinal matters involving Jesus. However, personally, I lean toward the deception being a complete un-believing in Jesus. IOW, not that anyone might claim to be Christ but that they'll claim to be God. I mean, not so much as saying, "I'm Jesus" but that, "I'm 'the real' Messiah." Wherein those undeceived will know, "You are no Jesus," because they know Him even if unsure about the more intricate details of scripture.

Basically, yes.

I think Jesus is describing what it's like when He returns and which time slot He returns so that when false Christs show up they won't be deceived. Without this vital information deception is imminent.

For example, pre-tribbers are looking for Jesus to return before the great tribulation. Guess who shows up first? False -prophets, false-Christs, and an anti-Christ. They're so sure of this that as soon as someone shows up working miracles, claiming to be God, they'll believe it, at least initially. Hopefully, this isn't the "strong delusional" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2, but it might be. I would love to be wrong.

 

[Mem]

Basically, yes.

I think Jesus is describing what it's like when He returns and which time slot He returns so that when false Christs show up they won't be deceived. Without this vital information deception is imminent.

For example, pre-tribbers are looking for Jesus to return before the great tribulation. Guess who shows up first? False -prophets, false-Christs, and an anti-Christ. They're so sure of this that as soon as someone shows up working miracles, claiming to be God, they'll believe it, at least initially. Hopefully, this isn't the "strong delusional" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2, but it might be. I would love to be wrong.

My concern is in regard to the belief that, upon realization of the antichrist's reigning, they will then assume they've been abandoned,, judged to be among the tares, and therefore forsaken to their inconsolable despair. This is especially concerning if it is also held that it is the Holy Spirit that is ''taken out of the way," so then it would beseem pointless, to them that believe this, to call on His comfort.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Re read your foundation.
Angels gather....not Jesus.

Can you prove that Jesus didn't command them to gather? It would still be Jesus as the "commander".

They gather from heaven....not earth.

Prove it.

You have not presented ANYTHING resembling a postrib rapture
Zero

We have. Your eyes are not open. 2 Thess 2:1 says in plain straghtforward language that the rapture (gathering) occurs at the Second Advent. You just aren't willing to admit it.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

I just don't see anywhere in the scripture that says it's impossible for the elect to be deceived. I have read a commentary on Matthew 24:24 which claims the elect cannot be deceived which didn't provided enough Biblical support.

In fact, I would think that being so sure and proud of one's resistance to deception is a foot in the door for covert deception.

Maybe it matters what people can be deceived about. Since God will lose none of His own, I can be confident that I cannot be deceived into matters leading to being lost. However, there are a myriad of different opinions and doctrines Christians hold. Is everyone right or is there a lot of deception going on?

Majority of people are nonelects and God will send strong delusion on them. The elect won't be deceived.


John 10:26-30
King James Version

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I (God) give unto them eternal life; and they (God's elect) shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:2-5
King James Version

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep (God's elect) follow him: for they know his voice (God).
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Pure baloney.
Re read your foundation.
Angels gather....not Jesus.

You have not presented ANYTHING resembling a postrib rapture
Zero

Your issue “Re read your foundation.
Angels gather....not Jesus.”

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your issue “
They gather from heaven....not earth.


“And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬



Your issue “You have not presented ANYTHING resembling a postrib rapture”

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you should consider what the scripture actually says all of us can be wrong sometimes we can even be convinced but please consider what Jesus had to say about his return

 

[FreeGrace2]

Majority of people are nonelects and God will send strong delusion on them. The elect won't be deceived.

Don't be so sure. No verse says the elect won't be deceived. Actually, the biblical usage of "elect" shows that election is to service, not salvation, as most of evangelicalism seems to think. Jesus was described as "The Elect One" in the OT, Jesus said that ALL 12 of the original disciples were chosen in John 6:70,71 which included Judas, who never believed.

And considering the many different theological views in orbit today, it's easy to see how much deception has already gone on among "the elect".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

For example, pre-tribbers are looking for Jesus to return before the great tribulation. Guess who shows up first? False -prophets, false-Christs, and an anti-Christ.

Again, biblically-speaking, the word "RETURN" (when used re: Jesus) speaks ONLY of His Second Coming to the earth at Rev19 (i.e. Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and its parallels] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [i.e. as ALREADY-wed]... THEN the meal [G347; aka the earthly MK age]; and Luke 19:12,15,17,19 [and its parallel] "RETURN");




... so think with me here... who among us believes that "the man of sin" / "antichrist" / "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' [bringing deception; Matt24:4 / Mk13:5]" SNATCHES [G726] *anyone* "TO MEET him... IN THE AIR"... (let alone the ONE SINGULAR SNATCH-ACTION of the "ONE BODY [Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]" at ONE POINT IN TIME)??

Exactly none of us (on any side of the viewpoints) say or think that.