50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[cv5]

Agreed.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Clearly the Great Tribulation is persecution of the elect by Satan and his forces.

Clearly you are mistaken. The book of Revelation states very clearly 11 times this is wrath of God.

 

[cv5]

Pretribbers are FORCED to say and believe this since the 'gathering' which is the rapture follows the Trib.

Nonsense. We understand perfectly well Daniels prophecy as it relates to Matthew 24.
You however do not....

 

[cv5]

The Great Tribulation is NOT God's wrath. It is the wrath of Satan mentioned in Revelation 12.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



The church is present on the Earth for the Great Tribulation but will be raptured away before God's wrath begins found in Revelation 11.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The 70th week tribulation IS the wrath of God. That specific term describes this period 11 times in the book of Revelation. Your continual denials are deeply concerning....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

We understand perfectly well Daniels prophecy as it relates to Matthew 24.

Just placing a couple posts here (I had just made), to add to your thought:


Post #240 - https://christianchat.com/threads/2-thessalonians-2.199969/post-4597246

Post #242 - https://christianchat.com/threads/2-thessalonians-2.199969/post-4597268

 

[Runningman]

Jesus was expounding on the 70th week of Daniel. The audience is the same as Daniels audience. The nation Israel.....

Biggest clue your math is in error is that it seems to contradict the plain text of the scriptures.

 

[ewq1938]

Clearly you are mistaken. The book of Revelation states very clearly 11 times this is wrath of God.

Wrong. Never once is the Great Tribulation ever called the wrath of God. It is the warth of Satan who persecutes Christians and even kills them during thousand years Great Tribulation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

That is a heretical view. The term "wrath" occurs 13 times in the book of Revelation.

-11 times explicitly stated as God's wrath
-1 time explicitly stated as the wrath of the Lamb
-1 time explicitly stated as the wrath of Satan

Many times in the New Testament it is stated that we are NOT appointed to God's wrath. Including His wrath of the tribulation period.

I am shocked and amazed at the failure of biblical scholarship by so posters on this thread.
Opinions without Scriptural backup are totally useless and dangerous.

This is the same thing that I have continued to proclaim to them in that, believers are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath, neither the condemnation in the lake of fire nor God's wrath that is coming upon this earth after the church is gathered. Their answer is to move the wrath of God, or to make the tribulation and God's wrath as being two separate issues, or to claim that Paul was talking about God's ultimate wrath, as though believers are appointed to suffer the one but not the other?

This is the message that mid and post tribulation believers are teaching to new Christians: 'The good news is, you have forgiveness of sins and the hope of eternal life. The bad news is, you still have to go through God's wrath.'

The people who add to the prophesies in the book of Revelation, their punishment is that God will add to them the plagues of wrath written in that book. But according to the post tribulation believer, the church gets to go through those plagues of wrath for no reason whatsoever.

 

[cv5]

Wrong. Never once is the Great Tribulation ever called the wrath of God. It is the warth of Satan who persecutes Christians and even kills them during thousand years Great Tribulation.

Nope you've got that all wrong.

Fully 11 times the book of Revelation indicates that it is THE TIME of Gods wrath.
One time it is explicitly stated as the wrath of the Lamb.

You would think that it would be impossible for a Bible believer to be wrong literally a dozen times. But there you are.......your grevious error exposed for all to see.

 

[ewq1938]

Nope you've got that all wrong.

Fully 11 times the book of Revelation indicates that it is THE TIME of Gods wrath.
One time it is explicitly stated as the wrath of the Lamb.

It is never a single time called the wrath of God. The wrath of the lamb is AFTER the Great Tribulation has ended, same time as the 7th trump Revelation 11.

 

[VCO]

Biggest clue your math is in error is that it seems to contradict the plain text of the scriptures.

Could this be why you do not understand ? ? ?


1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


Do you know if you are TRULY BORN AGAIN ? ? ?

Could you explain what is Born Again, and how you were Born again; so that all of us will know for sure you are ? ? ?

 

[TenderHeart]

All this time spent obsessing about the rapture could’ve been spent obsessing about the glory and greatness of Jesus Christ, our Savior. Don’t get distracted

 

[Runningman]

Could this be why you do not understand ? ? ?


1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


Do you know if you are TRULY BORN AGAIN ? ? ?

Could you explain what is Born Again, and how you were Born again; so that all of us will know for sure you are ? ? ?

My disagreement with your interpretation or someone else's interpretation has nothing to do with being born again or not. If that were the case, you should be questioning yourself because you do the exact same thing.

I don't want to derail this discussion, but since you seem to not understand what it means to be born again, it seems vitally important to tell you.

In John 3, Nicodemus asks the same question that you're asking. Being born again isn't a reference to physical rebirth, it's a spiritual rebirth and it's at the very essence of the gospel of Christ.

In John 3:7, the word "born again" literally means "born from above." To be born again means to be born again, spiritually, not by the will of men but by the will of God.

There are a variety of scriptures that will help you understand this: 2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18

Sinners are spiritually dead. They need to repent of their sins and place their faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins and the salvation of their souls.

If you have done this then you're born again. I'm born again and have access to the grace of God through faith in Christ:

Romans 5:1-2
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Now you know what being born again means, how to be born again, and that it has nothing to do with disagreements in silly debates about the rapture.

 

[cv5]

My disagreement with your interpretation or someone else's interpretation has nothing to do with being born again or not. If that were the case, you should be questioning yourself because you do the exact same thing.

I don't want to derail this discussion, but since you seem to not understand what it means to be born again, it seems vitally important to tell you.

In John 3, Nicodemus asks the same question that you're asking. Being born again isn't a reference to physical rebirth, it's a spiritual rebirth and it's at the very essence of the gospel of Christ.

In John 3:7, the word "born again" literally means "born from above." To be born again means to be born again, spiritually, not by the will of men but by the will of God.

There are a variety of scriptures that will help you understand this: 2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18

Sinners are spiritually dead. They need to repent of their sins and place their faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins and the salvation of their souls.

If you have done this then you're born again. I'm born again and have access to the grace of God through faith in Christ:

Romans 5:1-2
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Now you know what being born again means, how to be born again, and that it has nothing to do with disagreements in silly debates about the rapture.

Well........personally I would not take advice from people who can't count to 11.......
And most certainly not when it comes to matters Biblical.

 

[VCO]

My disagreement with your interpretation or someone else's interpretation has nothing to do with being born again or not. If that were the case, you should be questioning yourself because you do the exact same thing.

I don't want to derail this discussion, but since you seem to not understand what it means to be born again, it seems vitally important to tell you.

In John 3, Nicodemus asks the same question that you're asking. Being born again isn't a reference to physical rebirth, it's a spiritual rebirth and it's at the very essence of the gospel of Christ.

In John 3:7, the word "born again" literally means "born from above." To be born again means to be born again, spiritually, not by the will of men but by the will of God.

There are a variety of scriptures that will help you understand this: 2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18

Sinners are spiritually dead. They need to repent of their sins and place their faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins and the salvation of their souls.

If you have done this then you're born again. I'm born again and have access to the grace of God through faith in Christ:

Romans 5:1-2
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Now you know what being born again means, how to be born again, and that it has nothing to do with disagreements in silly debates about the rapture.

Seems more like you just want ARGUE, than a discussion to me.

Also, I totally disagree with your opening statement. It has EVERYTHING to do with whether or not you are truly Born again.
But there is another Explanation. I read some of your Posts and find you disagreeing with TOO much of what I know is Mainline Christianity hear in the USA. It is almost like I am talking to a Mormon, where I am forced to ask you for a Definition of your terms. I hope you know there but they use the same terms as we do, but they almost have a different meaning to every term.

You did a pretty good job of explaining Born Again, WHICH SURPRISED ME. But I would have gone a step further.
I would have explained that genuine Mourning over your SINFUL life style is part of genuine Repentence.
I would have also explained that you need to surrender to HIM, out of Agape LOVE, as Lord of your Life,
I would have explained that Genuine FAITH, which is not in the human Brain, but IN THE HEART.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you have a real sense of in your Spirit in the heart, is a thinking part of yourself, that is Intune with the will of GOD ? ? ?

Oh is it all just a product of your human Brain ? ? ?

I Mentioned another Possibly explanation. That is you could be under the influence of a False Teacher.

 

[AandW]

29
At that time, after (the tribulation of) those days, the sun will grow dark, the moon will not give forth its light, the stars will fall from heaven, and the host of heaven will be shaken.

30
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven and all the families of the earth will weep and will see the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven with a great host and with dreadful appearance.

31
He will send his angels with a trumpet and with a great shout to gather his chosen from the four winds of heaven, from one end of heaven unto the other.

 

[BenjaminN]

It's clear that Matthew 24 has no content whatsoever that addresses the Church . Understand that first and everything else will fall into place. God willing anyways.....

Matthew 24 (NKJV)

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect (raptured Christians) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[BenjaminN]

That is a heretical view. The term "wrath" occurs 13 times in the book of Revelation.

-11 times explicitly stated as God's wrath
-1 time explicitly stated as the wrath of the Lamb
-1 time explicitly stated as the wrath of Satan

Many times in the New Testament it is stated that we are NOT appointed to God's wrath. Including His wrath of the tribulation period.

I am shocked and amazed at the failure of biblical scholarship by so posters on this thread.
Opinions without Scriptural backup are totally useless and dangerous.

Midway through Daniel's 70th week years (ie. 7 years), during the last 3.5 years before Messiah returns of the clouds:

Christians (re. ot Israelites) are on the receiving end of the anti-christ's (re. ot Pharaoh's) great tribulational trials
Non-christians (re. ot Egyptians) are on the receiving end of God's wrath, not Christians (re. ot Israelites)

 

[ewq1938]

29
At that time, after (the tribulation of) those days, the sun will grow dark, the moon will not give forth its light, the stars will fall from heaven, and the host of heaven will be shaken.

30
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven and all the families of the earth will weep and will see the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven with a great host and with dreadful appearance.

31
He will send his angels with a trumpet and with a great shout to gather his chosen from the four winds of heaven, from one end of heaven unto the other.

Matthew 24 (NKJV)

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect (raptured Christians) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Obviously the rapture/gathering of the saints happens AFTER the Great Tribulation has ended. How can a pretribber not see this?

 

[BenjaminN]

Of course you're wrong about that as well. Matthew 24 is Jesus' Own exposition of the Daniels 70th week. Daniel ch 9 is a prophecy given only to Israel.

The Church is raptured before Daniel 70th week ever begins.....because it is the time of God's wrath. And tragically this wrath is also appointed to Israel. But it is definitely NOT appointed to the Church.

Daniel 9, like many other old testament writings that promised Messiah or all nations that would be blessed through Abraham's seed, is a prophecy to God's chosen people... of whom all are fellow heirs. Christ-believing Christian Israel as a 12 tribe whole distinctive entity from their fellow believing Gentile Christians, will only be built up again only under Messiah, AFTER he returned on the clouds, and the dead has been raised (refer Ezekiel 37, 1 Thess 4:16-18, Revelations 20:4, etc..)

Ephesians 3 (NKJV)

6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

read more about the same body, olive tree under Christ as root, uniting Jews' and the Gentile's branches in Romans 11, and refrain from separating believing Jews from Gentiles in the body of Christ as it is un-Biblical.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

will only be built up again only under Messiah, AFTER he returned on the clouds, and the dead has been raised (refer Ezekiel 37,

Ezekiel 37 is not referring to a "physical / bodily resurrection from the dead," but rather Israel (still-living) coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered (see vv.11,12-14,20-23)... just as in other related passages: Hosea 5:14-6:3; Isa26:15-21; Rom11:15[25,27]; Dan12:1-4,10; Jn6:39 [distinct from v.40]; etc...

They will be coming to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") and will be the ones carrying forth the message of "INVITATION TO" the earthly MK age, seen in Matt24:14/26:13 (etc...); They'll be "gathered" into one place upon the earth (Jerusalem) at the time surrounding Christ's Second Coming to the earth, per Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13[/Rom11:27 / Dan9:24b/ etc]... meaning, the believing remnant of Israel (not those who do not come to faith prior to that point--AFTER that point [His "RETURN" to the earth] is TOO LATE)