50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[randyk]

That idea seems to be completely negated by the following passages:

"[...] and "the 12" being told by Jesus that THEY will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" Lk22:30,16,18 / Matt19:28 "when" (see/compare Mt25:31-34 for its TIMING ["when"] and LOCATION) [...])"


[quoted from an old post]

I answer that above in more detail.--#5217. The important elements are that there is a nation comprising Abraham's biological postery, Israel. And they must include all of the tribes, which played a crucial role in the playing out of the Law of Moses. The idea is that the entire Law, played out by all 12 tribes, served to produce the New Testament. They were designed to be fulfilled in a Christian Israel, and not in an Israel led by anti-Christian Judaism.

In fact, all 12 tribes are constituent members of the "Jewish People," although they are no longer distinguished as such. The geographical tribal regions are gone, and the tribes have no practical purpose other than being viewed as constituent parts in the Jewish People. The use of OT imagery to convey NT truths is a feature of OT prophecy, which was given, first of all, to OT Israel, and only after that, to the NT Church.

 

[cv5]

I think you completely misunderstand my position. It certainly isn't heretical.

I don't discount Israel as one of the many promised nations assured to Abraham. Abraham was promised both a biological nation, descended from himself, and a company of nations, united by Abraham's faith.

I don't believe there will be a Millennial temple. The OT temple was patterned after the heavenly temple, viewed as Christ himself in the New Jerusalem. Jesus will come to reign over all nations, including Israel. This Kingdom will begin in the Millennial age, when mankind is still mortal. Eventually, all nations will consolidate into something new in the Eternal Age of the New Earth.

When biblical prophecy utilizes OT imagery to refer to NT realities, the language is understood to be symbolic of something greater in the NT era. There is no need to see this OT imagery as literal.

You did not simply "discount" Israel......you stated "There are no 12 tribes of Israel today. And there never will be again".

You have thereby relegated national ethnic Israel to oblivion. That is is the will of Satan and NOT the will of God.

 

[randyk]

You did not simply "discount" Israel......you stated "There are no 12 tribes of Israel today. And there never will be again".

You have thereby relegated national ethnic Israel to oblivion. That is is the will of Satan and NOT the will of God.

Here is what's wrong with your sense of that. You state that the extinction of *tribal regions* is the equivalent of the extinction of national Israel. Clearly, that is not true. Israel exists as a nation today, and yet there are no longer tribal regions.

 

[cv5]

Here is what's wrong with your sense of that. You state that the extinction of *tribal regions* is the equivalent of the extinction of national Israel. Clearly, that is not true. Israel exists as a nation today, and yet there are no longer tribal regions.

If you think the Israel of "today" is going to be the pattern of Israel tomorrow, reconstituted by God Himself in the millennium........think again. The Bible makes crystal-clear what shall be the glorious future for God's elect servant Israel, so named after the patriarch Jacob.

The mounting evidence indicates that you are a replacement theology advocate. And I've never met a replacement theology advocate who had an accurate apprehension of Biblical end time eschatology. Which is of course another one of your problems.

 

[randyk]

If you think the Israel of "today" is going to be the pattern of Israel tomorrow, reconstituted by God Himself in the millennium........think again. The Bible makes crystal-clear what shall be the glorious future for God's elect servant Israel, so named after the patriarch Jacob.

The mounting evidence indicates that you are a replacement theology advocate. And I've never met a replacement theology advocate who had an accurate apprehension of Biblical end time eschatology. Which is of course another one of your problems.

No, I'm not at all a Replacement Theology advocate. In fact, I'm the opposite. I don't even reword it to deny I am that, as some do. I'm afraid you don't have any sense of what I do believe. You seem to be attacking "ghosts" of what you think I believe--not what I actually believe. I suggest you spend more time asking what I believe than in attacking what you say I believe?

 

[BenjaminN]

...
And so, the Jewish people in Israel today are, indeed, the literal descendants of these 12 tribes. They are stated to exist in equal numbers for the same reason Ezekiel, in his vision, showed the tribes as roughly equivalent regions. It was to show an equal inheritance among the tribes, rather than a literal number.

The Jews (Jew - Jew-dah / Judah tribe) are the southern kingdom three tribes today occupying the southern and northern kingdom... They are not representative of the twelve tribes... as the majority of the northern kingdom's 9 1/2 tribes were taken captive by Assyrian armies and were dispersed throughout the Assyrian empire of the time...

 

[BenjaminN]

If you think the Israel of "today" is going to be the pattern of Israel tomorrow, reconstituted by God Himself in the millennium........think again. The Bible makes crystal-clear what shall be the glorious future for God's elect servant Israel, so named after the patriarch Jacob.

The mounting evidence indicates that you are a replacement theology advocate. And I've never met a replacement theology advocate who had an accurate apprehension of Biblical end time eschatology. Which is of course another one of your problems.

Following the return of Messiah on the clouds, the TRUE Israel believers in Messiah will be gathered, as well as the Gentiles believers in Messiah... and Israel will be divided among the twelve tribes of true Israel gathered by Messiah in the clouds.

 

[BenjaminN]

2Ch 30:11
Nevertheless some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.

Read the whole chapter. This was during the reign of Hezekiah....who reigned in Judah AFTER 722BC! ALL ISRAEL was called to the Passover in Jerusalem at a time of NATIONAL REPENTANCE.

Your 10 lost tribes heresy is hereby quashed forevermore. Quit professing and teaching this horrific error.

You cannot extrapolate the whereabouts of a whole 9 1/2 tribes based on your wanting information. Historical fact is that the northern kingdom was taken captive and displaced all over the Assyrian empire, as it was Assyrian conquering tactics to disperse their conquered enemies into unknown lands where they would be disorientated and weak to wage revenge.

 

[BenjaminN]

I think what you're referring to is the possibility of ***12*** lost tribes.
That is far more sensible actually. But I don't particularly agree with that either.

You say there are 12 lost tribes ... but 9 1/2 of the 12 is not lost ...

 

[randyk]

The Jews (Jew - Jew-dah / Judah tribe) are the southern kingdom three tribes today occupying the southern and northern kingdom... They are not representative of the twelve tribes... as the majority of the northern kingdom's 9 1/2 tribes were taken captive by Assyrian armies and were dispersed throughout the Assyrian empire of the time...

I hear that argument regularly, and yet don't believe it's true. All 12 tribes had representatives who travelled south to Judah, in order to properly worship Yahweh. The 2 main tribes in the South were Judah and Benjamin. And certainly some of the Levites lived there. What "3" tribes are you referring to?

We see, at several locations in the Bible, reference to all 12 tribes having representatives in Judah, likely due to their interest in worshiping in the one place specified by the Law of Moses. The Northern Kingdom of Israel, in breaking away from orthodox worship, developed idols to replace the proper worship of God in Jerusalem.

 

[randyk]

You say there are 12 lost tribes ... but 9 1/2 of the 12 is not lost ...

The tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel were indeed lost. However, representatives of those tribes had been going down to Judah from the time the kingdoms split after Solomon's reign. That is the whole point, that all 12 tribes came to be fulfilled in the nation of Israel, the Jewish People. All 12 tribes were significant in the composition of the nation that depicted the coming of Messiah and the nation for whom he came.

The Jewish People in Jesus' time and in our time are the very descendants from these original 12 tribes. All 12 are represented in the Jewish People. They were distinguished as 12 tribes at one time, but are no longer depicted as such, nor need they be. The Scriptures are only verifying that they are the people from whom came the Israeli nation.

2 Chron 11.13 The priests and Levites from all their districts throughout Israel sided with him. 14 The Levites even abandoned their pasturelands and property and came to Judah and Jerusalem, because Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them as priests of the Lord 15 when he appointed his own priests for the high places and for the goat and calf idols he had made. 16 Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their ancestors. 17 They strengthened the kingdom of Judah and supported Rehoboam son of Solomon three years, following the ways of David and Solomon during this time.

Thus, the Northern tribes were lost, due to intense sin and apostasy, but the Southern tribes survived through the Jewish People in Judah. And all 12 tribes were mixed in with them.

 

[cv5]

You say there are 12 lost tribes ... but 9 1/2 of the 12 is not lost ...

What are you talking about now? I did NOT say that there are 12 lost tribes. I have stated over and over again that all 12 ethnic tribes (collectively the house of Jacob) undoubtedly remain and exist to this present day, and will inevitably be RIGHTLY IDENTIFIED and reassembled in God's good time in the millennial kingdom. This according to Gods inviolable covenants and prophecies infallibly recorded in Scripture.

I said that it is YOU that must believe in 12 lost tribes. See your posts 5189, 5186, 5182 etc.

You have stated many many times that ALL tribal identities have now been irredeemably lost to the sands of time. Randy has said the very same thing. What's worse Randy thinks that a future redeemed tribal ethnic Israel will all be Christians.

 

[cv5]

The tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel were indeed lost. However, representatives of those tribes had been going down to Judah from the time the kingdoms split after Solomon's reign. That is the whole point, that all 12 tribes came to be fulfilled in the nation of Israel, the Jewish People. All 12 tribes were significant in the composition of the nation that depicted the coming of Messiah and the nation for whom he came.

The Jewish People in Jesus' time and in our time are the very descendants from these original 12 tribes. All 12 are represented in the Jewish People. They were distinguished as 12 tribes at one time, but are no longer depicted as such, nor need they be. The Scriptures are only verifying that they are the people from whom came the Israeli nation.

2 Chron 11.13 The priests and Levites from all their districts throughout Israel sided with him. 14 The Levites even abandoned their pasturelands and property and came to Judah and Jerusalem, because Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them as priests of the Lord 15 when he appointed his own priests for the high places and for the goat and calf idols he had made. 16 Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their ancestors. 17 They strengthened the kingdom of Judah and supported Rehoboam son of Solomon three years, following the ways of David and Solomon during this time.

Thus, the Northern tribes were lost, due to intense sin and apostasy, but the Southern tribes survived through the Jewish People in Judah. And all 12 tribes were mixed in with them.

Anna (Luke 2:36) of the tribe of Asher was not "lost". Neither to God or herself.

Please tell us what is your opinion of the above-noted scripture? If I recall you stated earlier that it simply does not mean what it says. It could've been Benjamin I can't remember.

 

[randyk]

Anna (Luke 2:36) of the tribe of Asher was not "lost". Neither to God or herself.

Please tell us what is your opinion of the above-noted scripture? If I recall you stated earlier that it simply does not mean what it says. It could've been Benjamin I can't remember.

The Scriptures always mean what they say. We just have to know what is being said. I believe in the full inspiration of Scriptures. I don't know what Benjamin believes, but I'll tell you what I believe.

I believe that the 10 Northern tribes were lost. There may have been pockets of tribes left after the Assyrian captivity, but they likely blended in with other Jewish groups later on. The predominant Jewish groups we have today came from the Southern tribes. The Northern tribes had mingled in among them for years after the division of the Kingdom of Solomon and Rehoboam.

I know my ethnicity today. But that doesn't mean the tribes of my original ethnicity still exist. They may or may not exist in some form.

The point is, Jews knew their genealogy for a long time after the tribal regions stopped functioning independently. They all coalesced into a kingdom under Saul and David. And then, as noted, they split after Solomon.

Since the Northern tribes began to form idolatrous religions to replace worship in Jerusalem many in the Northern tribes began to migrate to Judah, so as to worship properly there. As a result, the Jewish People came to represent all 12 tribes without regard for their original 12 tribal regions.

The whole point in noting that there were 12 tribes was to establish that all 12 tribes remain embedded, genetically, within the Jewish People. As such, they're able to fulfill God's original call upon the 12 tribes to form a permanent nation for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[BenjaminN]

I hear that argument regularly, and yet don't believe it's true. All 12 tribes had representatives who travelled south to Judah, in order to properly worship Yahweh. The 2 main tribes in the South were Judah and Benjamin. And certainly some of the Levites lived there. What "3" tribes are you referring to?

The southern kingdom "3" tribes I referred to, is the same 3 tribes you mentioned above, ie. Judah, Benjamin and the Levites. Some expatriates from the northern kingdom's tribes joined them as outsiders.

 

[TenderHeart]

My opinion of rapture is that it’s escapist thinking. We’re not leaving this life without trials and hardship and long-suffering.
I spent (wasted) my whole life (until now) with escapist thinking. I’ve been trying to escape everything. Used Alcohol, marijuana, meditation, suicidal ideation etc. I’ve been sober from alcohol for over two years, And when God called to me three months ago I begged Him to take away my marijuana addiction that was me smoking every single day nonstop, under the guise of it being “medicine “as I was a card carrying member. Diagnosed with PTSD. Spoiler alert… Medical marijuana is not medicine when it’s abused. I had a penchant for abuse because I am always trying to escape things.

Jesus Christ saved me three months ago. Amen hallelujah! What He gave me, was that I completely lost the desire. No withdrawal because I no longer even was interested in it. I was not able to hear the words of God or understand the Bible under the influence of marijuana. And suddenly my priorities shifted up to the MOST HIGH! My Testimony is powerful. I’m so grateful to God and Jesus Christ every single minute of every day for releasing me from this horrible burden I had.Since I’ve been completely sober, God has impressed in my heart how much I really just tried to escape.

We have to deal with reality in this life and make the most of every minute according to the way Jesus Christ would.
I personally do not hang my hat thinking I’m gonna get magically lifted up and not have to deal with some hardship along the way when everything hits the fan. If that happens in my lifetime (end times revelation) I am prepared to have my head chopped off, live in the wilderness by myself, whatever tests that God puts me through in order to get to his eternal life. I believe it’s quite dangerous to think that you would not have to go through such suffering as a Christian, have you read the stories in the Bible? It’s not supposed to be an easy path.

TLDR; Rapture is escapism thinking

 

[Absolutely]

My opinion of rapture is that it’s escapist thinking. We’re not leaving this life without trials and hardship and long-suffering.
I spent (wasted) my whole life (until now) with escapist thinking. I’ve been trying to escape everything. Used Alcohol, marijuana, meditation, suicidal ideation etc. I’ve been sober from alcohol for over two years, And when God called to me three months ago I begged Him to take away my marijuana addiction that was me smoking every single day nonstop, under the guise of it being “medicine “as I was a card carrying member. Diagnosed with PTSD. Spoiler alert… Medical marijuana is not medicine when it’s abused. I had a penchant for abuse because I am always trying to escape things.

Jesus Christ saved me three months ago. Amen hallelujah! What He gave me, was that I completely lost the desire. No withdrawal because I no longer even was interested in it. I was not able to hear the words of God or understand the Bible under the influence of marijuana. And suddenly my priorities shifted up to the MOST HIGH! My Testimony is powerful. I’m so grateful to God and Jesus Christ every single minute of every day for releasing me from this horrible burden I had.Since I’ve been completely sober, God has impressed in my heart how much I really just tried to escape.

We have to deal with reality in this life and make the most of every minute according to the way Jesus Christ would.
I personally do not hang my hat thinking I’m gonna get magically lifted up and not have to deal with some hardship along the way when everything hits the fan. If that happens in my lifetime (end times revelation) I am prepared to have my head chopped off, live in the wilderness by myself, whatever tests that God puts me through in order to get to his eternal life. I believe it’s quite dangerous to think that you would not have to go through such suffering as a Christian, have you read the stories in the Bible? It’s not supposed to be an easy path.

TLDR; Rapture is escapism thinking

Jesus invoked it, taught it, and please read the last sentences of the bible, as if to say; "above all else, remember on thing, keep longing for and looking to the pretrib rapture"

Jesus left us with the rapture as his parting words.

And i will leave you with my challenge. Post for us just one postrib rapture verse. In over 30 years nobody has ever produced one to my knowledge.

Your position is from a root of emotion and false teaching. Not even close to being scriptural.

 

[Absolutely]

My opinion of rapture is that it’s escapist thinking. We’re not leaving this life without trials and hardship and long-suffering.
I spent (wasted) my whole life (until now) with escapist thinking. I’ve been trying to escape everything. Used Alcohol, marijuana, meditation, suicidal ideation etc. I’ve been sober from alcohol for over two years, And when God called to me three months ago I begged Him to take away my marijuana addiction that was me smoking every single day nonstop, under the guise of it being “medicine “as I was a card carrying member. Diagnosed with PTSD. Spoiler alert… Medical marijuana is not medicine when it’s abused. I had a penchant for abuse because I am always trying to escape things.

Jesus Christ saved me three months ago. Amen hallelujah! What He gave me, was that I completely lost the desire. No withdrawal because I no longer even was interested in it. I was not able to hear the words of God or understand the Bible under the influence of marijuana. And suddenly my priorities shifted up to the MOST HIGH! My Testimony is powerful. I’m so grateful to God and Jesus Christ every single minute of every day for releasing me from this horrible burden I had.Since I’ve been completely sober, God has impressed in my heart how much I really just tried to escape.

We have to deal with reality in this life and make the most of every minute according to the way Jesus Christ would.
I personally do not hang my hat thinking I’m gonna get magically lifted up and not have to deal with some hardship along the way when everything hits the fan. If that happens in my lifetime (end times revelation) I am prepared to have my head chopped off, live in the wilderness by myself, whatever tests that God puts me through in order to get to his eternal life. I believe it’s quite dangerous to think that you would not have to go through such suffering as a Christian, have you read the stories in the Bible? It’s not supposed to be an easy path.

TLDR; Rapture is escapism thinking

Ok lets read some escape situations you say are not in the bible.

1 Samuel 19:17
And Saul said unto Michal, Why hast thou deceived me so, and sent away mine enemy, that he is escaped? And Michal answered Saul, He said unto me, Let me go; why should I kill thee?


1 Samuel 19:18
So David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Samuel 22:1
David therefore departed thence, and escaped to the cave Adullam: and when his brethren and all his father's house heard it, they went down thither to him.

1 Samuel 22:20
And one of the sons of Ahimelech the son of Ahitub, named Abiathar, escaped, and fled after David.

1 Samuel 23:13
Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth

1 Samuel 27:1
And David said in his heart, I shall now perish one day by the hand of Saul: there is nothing better for me than that I should speedily escape into the land of the Philistines; and Saul shall despair of me, to seek me any more in any coast of Israel: so shall I escape out of his hand.

In your own beliefs you see yourself tying to escape beheading buy going into the wilderness running from cave to cave as other postribs falsely imagine.
Escapeism in your own fashion.

 

[Absolutely]

God seems to er on the side of escape

Ecclesiastes 7:26
And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.


....as in the pretrib rapture, those departing with Jesus are the ones ready and pleasing God.
( mat 25)

Those ready escape.

 

[BenjaminN]

Ok lets read some escape situations you say are not in the bible.

1 Samuel 19:17
And Saul said unto Michal, Why hast thou deceived me so, and sent away mine enemy, that he is escaped? And Michal answered Saul, He said unto me, Let me go; why should I kill thee?


1 Samuel 19:18
So David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Samuel 22:1
David therefore departed thence, and escaped to the cave Adullam: and when his brethren and all his father's house heard it, they went down thither to him.

1 Samuel 22:20
And one of the sons of Ahimelech the son of Ahitub, named Abiathar, escaped, and fled after David.

1 Samuel 23:13
Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth

1 Samuel 27:1
And David said in his heart, I shall now perish one day by the hand of Saul: there is nothing better for me than that I should speedily escape into the land of the Philistines; and Saul shall despair of me, to seek me any more in any coast of Israel: so shall I escape out of his hand.

In your own beliefs you see yourself tying to escape beheading buy going into the wilderness running from cave to cave as other postribs falsely imagine.
Escapeism in your own fashion.

Luke 21 (ESV)

24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

10If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.
Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.