2 Thessalonians 2

[Ogom]

“There is a language of scripture, and it is not for us to make the rules or question it,”


So when Paul talks of the Day of Vengeance, the Day of the Lord, as a day of flaming fire,
how do we understand this?”

Does Jesus stand in the clouds with a flame-thrower?
Does he trigger some cosmic event like a comet that burns vast swathes of earth?
Does he supernaturally cause an atomic explosion of some sort?

Or does the flaming fire have a metaphorical meaning?

“I understand flaming fire as a metaphor that we find throughout scripture and it refers to the burning up worthless things”


Isn’t this all you questioning and answering as you yourself see it ? Or am I missing the point of what you are saying ? What are you saying about questioning a gods word and making up rules ?

I honestly don’t know what you are intending to say here so don’t know how to respond I don’t think I disagree with anything you wrote I just am not understanding your point

what I personally do to try to help
My own self understand what scripture is saying is letting scripture interpret scripture

so how should we interpret Jesus return and that day is the at what your saying ?

first I would go here to understand that it’s not a metophor

“Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so we can then begin to see what scripture says about the day of his return knowing it is going to be in the same manner he was taken into heaven in sight of men

that’s then where I would start looking at Paul’s descriptions of that day as well as the source he’s bringing from in prophecy

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure what you are saying I think that scripture is pretty plain in determining how we should understand things.

I believe there is a spiritual and literal aspect to everything because creation has both aspects heaven and earth

the language of the Bible is very spiritual (our bodies are the temple of God - and God is spirit) but for physical people written by spiritual people, inspired by God... to help people become more and more -- spiritual.

if ever anything in the Bible is not plain to all who read it then it could be because -- 1) it is not the original we are reading (somehow not quite right wording, added verses, ect.), 2) we are not yet aware of the true -est meaning yet and need to greatly seek truth over any and all errors and man- decided ideas.

"you must become as a child to enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Again, the context doesn't allow for a pre-trib rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2 even if "departure" is defined as a pre-trib rapture of the church; it isn't defined that way, but we can test your theory by pretending it is. That's your biggest clue that you're way off target with your interpretation.

Don't take my word for it, reread the chapter really slow.

Clearly you have not "tried out" the sentence using "the departure / the rapture" in the sentence (in a correct way).

The departure doesn't happen until Christ returns.

That's you reading YOUR *presupposition* into the passage.

Christ does not return until He ends the tribulation.

No one is arguing that point. We all AGREE on that point (Again), that He "RETURNS" to END the TRIB.

That means the rapture is post-trib.

No, it means you cannot wrench your *presupposition* from your mind even for a second, to "try out" the sentence using "THE DEPARTURE / THE RAPTURE" in the sentence (in a correct way... for I've seen you try, but incorrectly...)

The rest of what you said is just hot air and bluster which doesn't mean anything to me. I can be convinced otherwise with facts from the scripture.

I don't agree with 100% of what Rondonmon posts, but he's correct on the point of this word meaning "THE DEPARTURE / THE RAPTURE"


NOWHERE in this text does it state "THE DEPARTURE *LAST* when Christ RETURNS"... your presupposition has the text stating this.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

the language of the Bible is very spiritual (our bodies are the temple of God - and God is spirit) but for physical people written by spiritual people, inspired by God... to help people become more and more -- spiritual.

if ever anything in the Bible is not plain to all who read it then it could be because -- 1) it is not the original we are reading (somehow not quite right wording, added verses, ect.), 2) we are not yet aware of the true -est meaning yet and need to greatly seek truth over any and all errors and man- decided ideas.

"you must become as a child to enter the kingdom of heaven."

yes children learn from thier father they don’t come to him disagreeing and things I think is what he’s saying about coming to him as children , looking to learn from thier dad our eternal life which of you think of it being resurrected from the dead and living forever has to be a spiritual doctrine , it defies all physical laws held under death.

my argument is that because man is part physical and part spirit you find two covenants in scripture one pertaining to the natural and carnal physical

so for instance the law is “ wash your hands a certain way “ “ never eat all
Of these unclean foods “ “ never commit the action of adultery “ “ of anyone sins , physically put the sinner to death “ and so on

But then flesh became condemned by transgression and mans spirit needed salvation from mans condemned flesh now

so the New Testament becomes the law of spirit where as the ot is the law of flesh so you have in the New Testament this constant contrast between spirit and flesh

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3, 5-6‬ ‭

because of transgression the flesh became lost but mans spirit can be saved by accepting the spiritual law of God meant to save us from our sinful heart and mind by redeeming us through faith ( changing our beliefs from wrong to right ) so we begin to act right believing the truth of God

the spirit is found here

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because the flesh is condemned and will
Perish even of believers , the old covenant has concluded when we are baptized into christs death by faith in order for our living soul to be redeemed and for us to receive our heavenly spiritual body

my argument is that there is both a heavenly ( spiritual aspect ) and earthly aspects of Gods word and that’s why we have two testaments

Christ will
Literally return with literal destruction and fire , but for now until that day he returns literally , there’s a spiritual fire in the world that can save us like your suggesting to accept the spiritual doctrine of the New Testament that is aimed at the motivations that create our sinful actions

So the flesh commandment and the spiritual commandment of eternal
Life

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭


See what Jesus says in the gospel his teachings are the words of the Holy Spirit from heaven from this point

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It is the word of the holy spirit from heaven so Jesus begins to say things like this

“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and the apostles note things like this that John said

“He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


so what I’m saying is when Jesus began to preach the gospel he was pouring out the doctrine of God the doctrine of the spirit into the world beginning with Jerusalem so to believe “spiritually “ is to let the gospel form the foundation and then go to the apostles for depth of understanding spiritual birth is why people can’t understand the gospel they aren’t told that believing the gospel
Jesus Preached is part of the plan so they aren’t receiving spirit to understand

 

[Rondonmon]

“Again, you are in denial mode.”

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you know how one who understands the word shakes his head at stuff like this/ It's astounding you conflate the Second Coming with the Rapture then say DUH YOU CAN'T SEE, YOU CAN'T SEE..........its rather amusing to be honest.

Yea, we say WE COME BACK WITH Jesus, thus we are with Jesus (WATCH NOW, maybe you will finally get this) when he returns there on Matt. 24:29-31, so IMMEDIATELY AFTER the 70th Week the Raptured Church and Jesus comes back to earth where Jesus gathers up the Elect Wheat (Israel) . We are the Elect BARLEY. The Wicked are the Grapes. All three had festivals, the Barley Harvest was always first.

The Barley Harvest doesn't use a tribulum like the Wheat Harvest does to get rid of the chaff. The word tribulation comes from tribulum, look it up. God is telling you not only is the Barley harvest first, but they will not go through the tribulation period.

There are Barley ELECT and CHAFF, there is Wheat ELECT and CHAFF (Wicked Tares) and there are those placed in the Wine-press of Gd's Wrath. Jesus was speaking about the Wheat Elect (Israel) in that case, Jesus never spoke about the Gentile Elect.

 

[Rondonmon]

Again, the context doesn't allow for a pre-trib rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2 even if "departure" is defined as a pre-trib rapture of the church; it isn't defined that way, but we can test your theory by pretending it is. That's your biggest clue that you're way off target with your interpretation.

Don't take my word for it, reread the chapter really slow. The departure doesn't happen until Christ returns. Christ does not return until He ends the tribulation. That means the rapture is post-trib.

The rest of what you said is just hot air and bluster which doesn't mean anything to me. I can be convinced otherwise with facts from the scripture.

You are wrong broter, it's a waste of time to debate it tbh. I know what it means, I know when the rapture is and you seemingly can't quite grasp it. I don't spend time trying to force someone to understand what they seemingly can't comprehend. God will require an answer from everyone in the end for what they teach others. I hope you see the truth because, unlike others, I see it as very bad to teach people in error, we have the holy spirit, we thus should never be led down wrong paths.

God Bless.

 

[Evmur]

Again, you are in denial mode. I don't care that I was taught it means Apostasy, I am not like a Pharisee, I am not wedded to MEN's TRADITIONS, what did Paul mean is all I care about. And Paul is saying DON'T FEAR guys, you will be gathered (DEPART) before the Day of the Lord God's Wrath comes. You can remain in your error until you get to Heaven, and you will see Satan won against you on that battlefront, all because what you BELIEVED can't be wrong. Meanwhile, God wants people he can mold for a reason, so He can shape us even through all of our faults. Men not willing to be wrong can never come fully unto God's truths. The Pharisees couldn't see who Jesus was because of things they had been taught by other men, thus Jesus called them "MEN'S TRADITIONS".

The church needs to distinguish between TRIBULATION and GOD'S WRATH. They are 2 different things. We are saved from God's wrath but we are not saved from tribulation, in Christ we must overcome tribulation.

Tribulation means trouble, it comes from the world, "in the world you will have tribulation" it means more specifically persecution. The GREAT TRIBULATION is the great end time persecution we are warned to expect.

We will be raptured AFTER the tribulation of those days but before God's wrath is poured out upon those who troubled us.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Do you know how one who understands the word shakes his head at stuff like this/ It's astounding you conflate the Second Coming with the Rapture then say DUH YOU CAN'T SEE, YOU CAN'T SEE..........its rather amusing to be honest.

Yea, we say WE COME BACK WITH Jesus, thus we are with Jesus (WATCH NOW, maybe you will finally get this) when he returns there on Matt. 24:29-31, so IMMEDIATELY AFTER the 70th Week the Raptured Church and Jesus comes back to earth where Jesus gathers up the Elect Wheat (Israel) . We are the Elect BARLEY. The Wicked are the Grapes. All three had festivals, the Barley Harvest was always first.

The Barley Harvest doesn't use a tribulum like the Wheat Harvest does to get rid of the chaff. The word tribulation comes from tribulum, look it up. God is telling you not only is the Barley harvest first, but they will not go through the tribulation period.

There are Barley ELECT and CHAFF, there is Wheat ELECT and CHAFF (Wicked Tares) and there are those placed in the Wine-press of Gd's Wrath. Jesus was speaking about the Wheat Elect (Israel) in that case, Jesus never spoke about the Gentile Elect.

I do recognize how pride shows itself in scholars by those who claim to have some understanding of the word that no one else has but yet can’t accept the lords own clear statement like this

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the understanding and interpretations of the Jews and thier scholars they knew to much to believe Jesus too they also understood scripture better than Jesus

he’s actually telling them they must go through the tribulation and preparing them for it 🙂

“For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:22-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


But you pre trib raptire folks get offended really quick lol I usually stay out of it , but it’s just such a diversion from the truth that Jesus plainly said

I think when people understand the word like Um those people you suggest thier going to them believe what Jesus said

I know enough about scripture to know who the one to believe is

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:39-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’d take his word over a group of scholars any day when anyone’s interpretation makes Jesus interpretation wrong lol that’s a certain sign they have no clue

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The church needs to distinguish between TRIBULATION and GOD'S WRATH. They are 2 different things. We are saved from God's wrath but we are not saved from tribulation, in Christ we must overcome tribulation.

Tribulation means trouble, it comes from the world, "in the world you will have tribulation" it means more specifically persecution. The GREAT TRIBULATION is the great end time persecution we are warned to expect.

We will be raptured AFTER the tribulation of those days but before God's wrath is poured out upon those who troubled us.

yes and gods wrath is going to come suddenly so just immediately after the tribulation right as everything looks lost , then we will whoever is alive in that generation be causing up just as the final Destruction comes like this

“For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:38-42‬ ‭

just as the secular world thinks everything’s fine Christians are facing soiri try wk and also physical oppression since the gospel came forth since the early church that’s the tribulation . After that period of refinement ends Christ will appear and gather those still on earth together with those who went before and the fire of judgement will come

it’s an immediate thing one day there it will be tribulation has existed since man fell into sin all the war desolations evil ideas murder rape ect creates tribulation just living in a fallen sinful world is tribulation for a follower of Jesus some suffer more than others but the worlds state is in tribulation and the alarm is sounding and the ladder out has been extended into earth

I totally agree there’s a difference in tribulation which the church goes through sharing on Christs sufferings in this earth in many ways , and the wrath to come the tribulation is when Gods wrath is only kindled a little when the son came to offer correction and salvstion

“I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭2:7-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

tribulation our souls can survive but not his wrath we can now be saved from kit through tribulation and perseverance

 

[GaryA]

The Rapture is Pre trib and that's not even debatable.

Sure it is - just look at how really long the "rapture debate" threads get to be...

 

[OldSage]

I do recognize how pride shows itself in scholars by those who claim to have some understanding of the word that no one else has but yet can’t accept the lords own clear statement like this

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the understanding and interpretations of the Jews and thier scholars they knew to much to believe Jesus too they also understood scripture better than Jesus

he’s actually telling them they must go through the tribulation and preparing them for it 🙂

“For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:22-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


But you pre trib raptire folks get offended really quick lol I usually stay out of it , but it’s just such a diversion from the truth that Jesus plainly said

I think when people understand the word like Um those people you suggest thier going to them believe what Jesus said

I know enough about scripture to know who the one to believe is

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:39-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’d take his word over a group of scholars any day when anyone’s interpretation makes Jesus interpretation wrong lol that’s a certain sign they have no clue

This is not really right PH.
The Church was not appointed to wrath.
Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, and also to the Greek. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[Habbakuk] 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Paul here is explaining that:

1) Judgment comes to Israel first
2) It manifests either as wrath (for those who suppress the truth; i.e. reject Christ)
3) Salvation for those who have faith (believed the gospel)

Here Paul quotes Habbakuk which really informs us of the nature of the judgment.
Habbakuk prophesied the destruction of the Temple by Nebuchadnezzar, and the
violent overruning of Jerusalem and Judea. When he asked God if the judgment would
be indiscriminate, God replied: 'No, the just will live by faith'.
I.E. those of Faith would survive and be protected in the slaughter.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sure it is - just look at how really long the "rapture debate" threads get to be...

lol yes both sides are convinced it’s not debatable but Jesus is the one who leaves no debate

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we make the confession he’s lord it would mean his words are the ones we also believe are true and would then follow after because we believed him

“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the truth was established and the time would come when men would get her up teachers and scholars and “ prophets “ to teach “the real truth “ turning us from Gods truth even within the church even so far as when someone speaks what Jesus said , others come and speak evil of those things he our lord and savior taught about his own kingdom


“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

false doctrines seem innocent sometimes when they are subtle but it’s like a train on a track once you derail certain parts of doctrine the whole train follows off course we have to believe the gospel our savior spoke and told us will save

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This is not really right PH.
The Church was not appointed to wrath.
Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, and also to the Greek. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[Habbakuk] 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Paul here is explaining that
1) Judgment comes to Israel first
2) It manifests either as wrath (for those who suppress the truth; i.e. reject Christ)
3) Salvation for those who have faith (believed the gospel)

Here Paul quotes Habbakuk which really informs us of the nature of the judgment.
Habbakuk prophesied the destruction of the Temple by Nebuchadnezzar, and the
violent overruning of Jerusalem and Judea. When he asked God if the judgment would
be indiscriminate, God replied: 'No, the just will live by faith'.
I.E. those of Faith would survive and be protected in the slaughter.

yes right the church is NOT appointed to wrath I agree , I was replying to ano thy r poster who explained “ there’s a difference between Gods wrath which we aren’t appointed to

, and tribulation in this world whichjesus prepared then for and the church is appointed to go through

I’m not sure I disagree with what you said there , it was a reply to the great point the other had made that thy e tribulation isn’t Gods wrath

Gods wrath being revealed is that we know if we don’t repent of the wickedness in Romans one that’s happening then we’ll end up in the lake of fire that’s Gods wrath if we repent and believe thy gospel we aren’t appointed to it

but never the less the church has gone through tribulation from the start , and will until thy eh day Jesus returns that’s why he prepared them for it in those verses

It’s part of the gospel

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s not gods wrath it’s the tribulation period the church goes through on earth many are actually killed and suffer terribly but it doesn’t mean they suffered Gods wrath there’s a difference in the appointed tribulation and the wrath to come for sin in the end

 

[OldSage]

yes right the church is NOT appointed to wrath I agree , I was replying to ano thy r poster who explained “ there’s a difference between Gods wrath which we aren’t appointed to

, and tribulation in this world whichjesus prepared then for and the church is appointed to go through

I’m not sure I disagree with what you said there , it was a reply to the great point the other had made that thy e tribulation isn’t Gods wrath

Gods wrath being revealed is that we know if we don’t repent of the wickedness in Romans one that’s happening then we’ll end up in the lake of fire that’s Gods wrath if we repent and believe thy gospel we aren’t appointed to it

but never the less the church has gone through tribulation from the start , and will until thy eh day Jesus returns that’s why he prepared them for it in those verses

It’s part of the gospel

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to aye not gods wrath it’s the tribulation period the church goes through on earth many are actually killed and suffer terribly but it doesn’t mean they suffered Gods wrath there’s a difference in the appointed tribulation and the wrath to come for sin in the end

Like many others PH, I think you don't understand this .....

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, and also the Greek; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, and also the Greek. 11 For God does not show favoritism.12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This is not really right PH.
The Church was not appointed to wrath.
Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, and also to the Greek. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[Habbakuk] 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Paul here is explaining that:

1) Judgment comes to Israel first
2) It manifests either as wrath (for those who suppress the truth; i.e. reject Christ)
3) Salvation for those who have faith (believed the gospel)

Here Paul quotes Habbakuk which really informs us of the nature of the judgment.
Habbakuk prophesied the destruction of the Temple by Nebuchadnezzar, and the
violent overruning of Jerusalem and Judea. When he asked God if the judgment would
be indiscriminate, God replied: 'No, the just will live by faith'.
I.E. those of Faith would survive and be protected in the slaughter.

yes I hope it’s ok but I noticed something here in your post that stray slightly from the current subject

the slaughter of Jerusalem toy are into there there is an effect it also has on that , israel the nation was stripped of its glory and its authority and high place above the nations

in other words because they crucified Jesus when he defame with cleansing fire for the levites they rejected him so this happened the gospel was sent out into the world to create a new nation born of faith

I of course suggest the whole parable but it’s relatively clear also from this point t to save length

“Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours. And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭12:6-11‬ ‭

when israel rejected the messiah who was preaching the kingdom to them , he was sent with the kingdom to all nations so the destruction of Jerusalem also led to the indignation of the lord spread to every nation of man and afterwards the gospel to all nations to save believers and condemn rightly non believers who like Israel reject Christ to his shame who suffered and died for thier sins

the world is going to suffer Jerusalem’s fate in the end also

“The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the destruction of Jerusalem because they rejected the ot conclusion of Christs coming , becomes the condemnation of all nations who reject him

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Like many others PH, I think you don't understand this .....

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, and also the Greek; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, and also the Greek. 11 For God does not show favoritism.12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

sure brother I do what part don’t I get let’s start here though so we can begin understanding the subject

“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

again to clarify what he’s saying

“And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So far I’m getting what he’s saying and I’m sure you are also

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you see how that forms an understanding of where you began there ? ? I’m not sure I think I believe it going to be judged according to this law by this man

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:

condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:

forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38‬ ‭


I’m pretty clear on judgement honestly brother no ones going to be saved by the law that’s why we have to get baptized and die to it we’re going to be judged by Jesus and Jesus alone

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬

judgement is according to the gospel brother even on that quote you quoted of you read on

“In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What part am I not getting if we start from the beginning ?

 

[Rondonmon]

The church needs to distinguish between TRIBULATION and GOD'S WRATH. They are 2 different things. We are saved from God's wrath but we are not saved from tribulation, in Christ we must overcome tribulation.

Tribulation means trouble, it comes from the world, "in the world you will have tribulation" it means more specifically persecution. The GREAT TRIBULATION is the great end time persecution we are warned to expect.

We will be raptured AFTER the tribulation of those days but before God's wrath is poured out upon those who troubled us.

Not really (though I understand your point, and will show why your point isn't valid at the bottom, and why your lack of understanding the raptures timing will always lead you to an erroneous conclusion.)

The tribulation is ALWAYS with us. Jesus said all time is tribulation while on this earth. So, the Church Age Church has 2000 some odd years of tribulation, then we are raptured, there will be a 70th week of troubles, then there will be Jacob's troubles of 3.5 years. The Greatest Ever Troubles Jesus mentions in Matt. 24:21 happens over a 3.5 year period of time, the Anti-Christ is led by Satan, he's the real general, so he knows God's Wrath starts with a cataclysmic asteroid event, thus when the asteroid strikes, he uses that chaos to send the Anti-Christ forth conquering, this wipes out 1/3 of the powers that be in the world out, and creates chaos where he can attack without being noticed for a minute, and BOOM, he's conquered Israel and the WHOLE Mediterranean Sea Region before the rest of the world knows what hit them. IMHO, the United States is a part of the 1/3 that gets wiped out by the asteroid strike.

So, God's Wrath AND the Anti-Christs evil reign both last the exact same 42-months until Jesus shows up at the 7th vial to finish off God's Wrath. Of course, God's Wrath is not aimed at the Church nor the Jewish Israelis who repent. But, only one is protected, in the wilderness/mountains, while the Church gets annihilated. But not THE CHURCH, we are in heaven, the Remnant Church (Rev. 12:17) are the ones who get killed, they missed the Rapture and now they will pay with their lives or serve the Beast, thus they wouldn't;t be the Church, only those who repent and lay down their lives will be the Remnant Church. But the Remnant Church of course gores through TROUBLES, as do the 1/3 of the Jews (Zechariah 13:8-9) who repent and are protected in the Petra/Bozrah area, living n the mountainous wilderness is TROUBLES n and of its self, but the 2/3 who do not repent will perish at the Anti-Christs hands, so isn't that TROUBLES? Those who repented have family being slaughtered, of course, that's troubles, and it's all happening at the same time, so God's Wrath brings TROUBLES and he Anti-Christ brings TROUBLES, and we know the difference in who brings what, but they happen over the exact same 3.5 year period of time.

God doesn't target Christians, but if you did not make the rapture, and you stay in California, you may not know it but the food is about to hit you !! This is why in Matt. 24:36-51it speaks about the time of Noah. Once you miss getting in the ark, and the rains start, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Likewise, if you are not the one TAKEN you will go through the tribulation period, there is no Rapture after the 70th-week starts, I have roved this over and over, READ THE TEXT........The 5th Seal states they will have to WAIT until all of their brothers are killed in LIKE MANNER as they were before they get revenge on those men ON EARTH who killed them. It can't be any clearer, even if people ignore it. Then Rev. 20:4 SHOWS US, that those who died during the 70th week are all Judged, AFTER Jesus Second coming, so those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of the GREAT Church Age Tribulation, as in 2000>7.

Matt. 24:29-31 is the Church AND Jesus returning to earth and Jesus is talking to the Jews who are the Wheat Harvest, not the Gentile Barley Harvest.

 

[Rondonmon]

Sure it is - just look at how really long the "rapture debate" threads get to be...

Not to me, they will dodge every point I make because they can't overcome it. So, the point is they never answer, they dodge and give pre-conceived notions, because In destroy all of the pints, thus they can't debate with me, they have to talk past me.

They are in error, and it's not even that hard of a question to understand, thus I don't fully trust people who can't see it tbh.

 

[Rondonmon]

I do recognize how pride shows itself in scholars by those who claim to have some understanding of the word that no one else has but yet can’t accept the lords own clear statement like this

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

SMH, he just posted this again and has not one clue about what it means, but he actually thinks he's doing, sad. I mean a 5th grader could understand that those seen in Rev. 19 come back to earth with Jesus on White Horses and those people on earth are then saved by Jesus, or resurrected by Jesus, but not this guy. Hes known this for years, its gotta be true..........SMH.

he’s actually telling them they must go through the tribulation and preparing them for it 🙂

“For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:22-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And as seen in Matt. 24:24-28, again, Jesus is speaking about the Jewish SHEEP he came to preach unto. So, why is he warning them? Because they are on the earth for the Anti-Christ and False Prophets 42-month rule, BECAUSE the Jews only repent at the 1335 when the two witnesses show up. Right before the DOTL (1260 Event) and they flee at the 1290 (AoD event). So, yes, they will indeed need to ear Jesus[ warnings and they will, that's why they stay in the Petra/Bozrah SAFE ZONE, Jesus has forewarned them that he will not be in some storeroom in Jerusalem, or in the Desert, but instead, he would come in from the EASTERN SKIES for all to see, thus them understanding this beforehand means they can't be deceived. Now, why would you think this is for Gentile Christians?

Again, you leaning on scriptures you clearly do not understand is going to be on you when you are judged. We even as Christians have to be judged. The more times you post this the smaller your mansion is becoming each time.

But you pre trib raptire folks get offended really quick lol I usually stay out of it , but it’s just such a diversion from the truth that Jesus plainly said

I think when people understand the word like Um those people you suggest thier going to them believe what Jesus said

I know enough about scripture to know who the one to believe is

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:39-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’d take his word over a group of scholars any day when anyone’s interpretation makes Jesus interpretation wrong lol that’s a certain sign they have no clue

No, I see it as very sad when someone keeps posting the sea passage over and over when proven wrong. Paul chastised his churches when they led people wrongly.

 

[OldSage]

Hey, Ahwatukee

Yeah, I get what you're saying...but Paul's letter isn't a vision subject to spiritual understanding like Revelation is. The letter was meant to explain the timing of events to the Thessalonians, clearly, so they weren't misled anymore.

So the basic question Paul is answering is "what's the hold-up for Messiah's return?" And he answers, "well the falling away and man of lawlessness must appear first. Then Paul concludes by saying, "now you know..." meaning, Paul just told us what's **holding up** the Messiah, prior to verse 6. Now the Thessalonians knew - after reading verses 1-5 - what was holding up Messiah's return: the man of lawlessness is to be revealed.

The old Greek word is "katechon" meaning hold fast; hold back" is translated as "restraining" in many versions...and this word is perfectly fine if read in context with verses 1-5.

The phrase I keep coming back to is "now you know...".

If we read verses 6-8 with this interpretation, it fits seamlessly with the first 5 verses:


2 Thess 2:6-8 [my simple reading]
And now you know what's holding up [the Messiah's return], his [the man of lawlessness] being revealed in his time. Because the secret lawlessness is already at work, only he now holds up [the Messiah's return] and will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way. And then that lawless one [just mentioned] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.


Ultimately, we all agree with the order of events: a man of lawlessness appears before the Messiah...but I think we're creating unnecessary doctrine around a Being called "The Restrainer" where no one exists.

In his first letter to the Thessalonian synagogue Paul states:

1 Thessalonians 1:9... They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
................
5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

It is evident that the Thessalonian Church knows that Jesus is coming soon, and is actively waiting for his return. Now if they know the times and seasons, then why would they be actively waiting unless it is an imminent event? Furthermore we see what they are waiting for, namely the wrath that Jesus spoke of to Jerusalem. So if we digest these things; then there is no need to go into convolutions about 2 Thessalonians 2.

So, given that the Thessalonians know the times and seasons, they would not be asking 'what's the hold-up?'
Furthermore if the coming Paul is talking about, when 'the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels' were the final return of Christ, then it would be impossible to dupe the Thessalonians. But Paul is worried about this very thing, the Thessalonians being duped into believing '(asserting) that the day of the Lord has already come'.

It is self-evident therefore that the coming Paul is talking about is, firstly, not Christ's final coming.
Secondly they are in a state of informed anticipation about an imminent coming, and Paul
has to warn them that people may well feign to be him, (in order to assume absolute authority), in order to trick them into believing that Jesus has come already.

Obviously if they believe this, they will then believe that apostate Israel no longer exists and therefore they would open themselves up big time to deceivers, which is probably Paul's main worry here.
I suppose if the deception was really cunning and vicious, then they could be deceived into going up to the Temple for the feasts, which obviously would be a fate worse than death.

 

[Runningman]

You are wrong broter, it's a waste of time to debate it tbh. I know what it means, I know when the rapture is and you seemingly can't quite grasp it. I don't spend time trying to force someone to understand what they seemingly can't comprehend. God will require an answer from everyone in the end for what they teach others. I hope you see the truth because, unlike others, I see it as very bad to teach people in error, we have the holy spirit, we thus should never be led down wrong paths.

God Bless.

Ditto.

I wouldn't be here trying to help you see the truth unless it was for your benefit. I don't get anything out of this except for some eternal rewards for being one of God's field workers, but that isn't my motivation. Just making it past the finish line to be with my beloved Creator is enough for me.

That being said, I'll leave you with something to ponder. Once you see it you won't be able to unsee it. There is not any verse that clearly says "the rapture occurs before the tribulation" which makes the pre-trib rapture a very difficult position to defend. Even after all the scripture citing, fiddling with words definitions, etc.

The coup de grâce in this debate is, and always has been, Matthew 24:29-31 where Jesus plainly says exactly when He returns to gather His elect: immediately after the tribulation. Case closed.

God bless dear Brother.