2 Thessalonians 2

[iamsoandso]

It makes total sense.
The Lord destroys the man of sin which is exactly what I've just been talking about.
What I said was that it is metaphorical; God did not literally burn 3 million Israelites on a giant pyre.

Your meaning the Israelite's/Jews who died in the first revolt? If so this would mean that they(the Israelite's/Jews) had in fact worshiped the image of the beast and received his mark. Then so if Rome is that beast the Jews/Israelite's did not worship Rome(beast) nor it's image in the 69 years leading up to the siege of ad70 but instead it is well recorded that they revolted then this would have nothing to do with 2 Thessalonians 2 nor the Scriptures I gave from Revelation. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html

 

[OldSage]

Your meaning the Israelite's/Jews who died in the first revolt? If so this would mean that they(the Israelite's/Jews) had in fact worshiped the image of the beast and received his mark. Then so if Rome is that beast the Jews/Israelite's did not worship Rome(beast) nor it's image in the 69 years leading up to the siege of ad70 but instead it is well recorded that they revolted then this would have nothing to do with 2 Thessalonians 2 nor the Scriptures I gave from Revelation. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html

There is nothing in Thessalonians about the image and mark

 

[iamsoandso]

There is nothing in Thessalonians about the image and mark

So do you see the man of lawlessness,son of destruction Paul referred to in 2Thess.2 as something other than that in Revelation?

 

[OldSage]

So do you see the man of lawlessness,son of destruction Paul referred to in 2Thess.2 as something other than that in Revelation?

Yes.

The 'son of destruction' is a moniker linked to 'vessels of destruction' (Romans 9).

Sonship is used to express the spiritual father of a person or people.

The Pharisees were of their father the devil because they were wedded to lies and murder.
The Israelites were children of disobedience, because they were totally stiff-necked and ungovernable.
The man of Lawlessness is the Son of Destruction because flying in the face of the Law was total nihilism.
Throughout the Old Testament whenever the Israelites deliberately opposed or rejected Mosaic Law, swift destruction followed.

Exodus 16 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites—Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—became insolent 2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, “You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”.........................30 ..(Moses speaking) 'if the Lord brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the realm of the dead, then you will know that these men have treated the Lord with contempt.”31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the realm of the dead, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, “The earth is going to swallow us too!”

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s REBELLION.

So yes, I see the the man of lawlessness as the Zealot leader Eleazar (a complete crackpot fanatic nutcase) and indeed by extension the whole zealot movement spoken of by Jude. Total disregard for the Law of Moses. Pure anarchistic (animalistic) rebellion.

 

[iamsoandso]

Yes.

The 'son of destruction' is a moniker linked to 'vessels of destruction' (Romans 9).

Sonship is used to express the spiritual father of a person or people.

The Pharisees were of their father the devil because they were wedded to lies and murder.
The Israelites were children of disobedience, because they were totally stiff-necked and ungovernable.
The man of Lawlessness is the Son of Destruction because flying in the face of the Law was total nihilism.
Throughout the Old Testament whenever the Israelites deliberately opposed or rejected Mosaic Law, swift destruction followed.

Exodus 16 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites—Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—became insolent 2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, “You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”.........................30 ..(Moses speaking) 'if the Lord brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the realm of the dead, then you will know that these men have treated the Lord with contempt.”31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the realm of the dead, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, “The earth is going to swallow us too!”

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s REBELLION.

So yes, I see the the man of lawlessness as the Zealot leader Eleazar (a complete crackpot fanatic nutcase) and indeed by extension the whole zealot movement spoken of by Jude. Total disregard for the Law of Moses. Pure anarchistic (animalistic) rebellion.

You should read the link I gave in post #121 (it's just 22 chapters) and then compare it to the Scriptures. The reason why is that those who are destroyed in the brightness of the Lords coming are the ones who worship the beast and receive his mark or name ect. ... In ad 70 during the first revolt those Jews revolted against Rome they did not worship it. They did not regard Caesar as God nor worship his image in fact according to history they did the opposite they revolted against Rome.

The Scriptures(given in my former post) state that those who refuse to worship the image are killed and the Jews in ad70 were but in Scripture those who refuse to worship the image,receive the mark ect. are not those who deny Jesus as the Messiah but rather those who do believe in Jesus (see verse 4) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 20&version=KJV So it is impossible for Revelation 13:15 to be fulfilled by those who do not believe in Jesus but can only be fulfilled by Christians.

 

[OldSage]

You should read the link I gave in post #121 (it's just 22 chapters) and then compare it to the Scriptures. The reason why is that those who are destroyed in the brightness of the Lords coming are the ones who worship the beast and receive his mark or name ect. ... In ad 70 during the first revolt those Jews revolted against Rome they did not worship it. They did not regard Caesar as God nor worship his image in fact according to history they did the opposite they revolted against Rome.

The Scriptures(given in my former post) state that those who refuse to worship the image are killed and the Jews in ad70 were but in Scripture those who refuse to worship the image,receive the mark ect. are not those who deny Jesus as the Messiah but rather those who do believe in Jesus (see verse 4) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 20&version=KJV So it is impossible for Revelation 13:15 to be fulfilled by those who do not believe in Jesus but can only be fulfilled by Christians.

For sure, but what you are giving is a commentary on Revelation which with all fairness
IASAS is not really anything to do with the thread. (I hope I don't sound rude saying it this way!).
Unfortunately I can't really comment on Revelation as I have not studied it to any acceptable depth.

 

[iamsoandso]

For sure, but what you are giving is a commentary on Revelation which with all fairness
IASAS is not really anything to do with the thread. (I hope I don't sound rude saying it this way!).
Unfortunately I can't really comment on Revelation as I have not studied it to any acceptable depth.

Yes which is why I ask what I did in post #123 of you seeing them as separate or the same.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hi PH,

There is a language of scripture, and it is not for us to make the rules or question it,
(not that I am accusing you of that, I am making a general address also).

So when Paul talks of the Day of Vengeance, the Day of the Lord, as a day of flaming fire,
how do we understand this?

Does Jesus stand in the clouds with a flame-thrower?
Does he trigger some cosmic event like a comet that burns vast swathes of earth?
Does he supernaturally cause an atomic explosion of some sort?

Or does the flaming fire have a metaphorical meaning?

I understand flaming fire as a metaphor that we find throughout scripture and it refers to the burning up worthless things.

John 5:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

So there John gives a description, used also by Paul (e.g. Romans 11) and Jesus (e.g. John 15:1-2, Luke 12:49)
where the burning of wood on a fire is a metaphor for the destruction of apostate Israel. It is a common thread throughout Jesus' life and in the epistles; it actually is God's character.

Deuteronomy 4:23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the Lord your God has forbidden. 24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

He burns apostates.
Dead wood is chucked on the bonfire.

Not literally of course, but metaphorically.

“There is a language of scripture, and it is not for us to make the rules or question it,”


So when Paul talks of the Day of Vengeance, the Day of the Lord, as a day of flaming fire,
how do we understand this?”

Does Jesus stand in the clouds with a flame-thrower?
Does he trigger some cosmic event like a comet that burns vast swathes of earth?
Does he supernaturally cause an atomic explosion of some sort?

Or does the flaming fire have a metaphorical meaning?

“I understand flaming fire as a metaphor that we find throughout scripture and it refers to the burning up worthless things”


Isn’t this all you questioning and answering as you yourself see it ? Or am I missing the point of what you are saying ? What are you saying about questioning a gods word and making up rules ?

I honestly don’t know what you are intending to say here so don’t know how to respond I don’t think I disagree with anything you wrote I just am not understanding your point

what I personally do to try to help
My own self understand what scripture is saying is letting scripture interpret scripture

so how should we interpret Jesus return and that day is the at what your saying ?

first I would go here to understand that it’s not a metophor

“Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so we can then begin to see what scripture says about the day of his return knowing it is going to be in the same manner he was taken into heaven in sight of men

that’s then where I would start looking at Paul’s descriptions of that day as well as the source he’s bringing from in prophecy

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure what you are saying I think that scripture is pretty plain in determining how we should understand things.

I believe there is a spiritual and literal aspect to everything because creation has both aspects heaven and earth

 

[OldSage]

Yes which is why I ask what I did in post #123 of you seeing them as separate or the same.

“There is a language of scripture, and it is not for us to make the rules or question it,”


So when Paul talks of the Day of Vengeance, the Day of the Lord, as a day of flaming fire,
how do we understand this?”

Does Jesus stand in the clouds with a flame-thrower?
Does he trigger some cosmic event like a comet that burns vast swathes of earth?
Does he supernaturally cause an atomic explosion of some sort?

Or does the flaming fire have a metaphorical meaning?

“I understand flaming fire as a metaphor that we find throughout scripture and it refers to the burning up worthless things”


Isn’t this all you questioning and answering as you yourself see it ? Or am I missing the point of what you are saying ? What are you saying about questioning a gods word and making up rules ?

I honestly don’t know what you are intending to say here so don’t know how to respond I don’t think I disagree with anything you wrote I just am not understanding your point

what I personally do to try to help
My own self understand what scripture is saying is letting scripture interpret scripture

so how should we interpret Jesus return and that day is the at what your saying ?

first I would go here to understand that it’s not a metophor

“Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so we can then begin to see what scripture says about the day of his return knowing it is going to be in the same manner he was taken into heaven in sight of men

that’s then where I would start looking at Paul’s descriptions of that day as well as the source he’s bringing from in prophecy

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure what you are saying I think that scripture is pretty plain in determining how we should understand things.

I believe there is a spiritual and literal aspect to everything because creation has both aspects heaven and earth

I am unsure what you are saying here PH.
Can you re-edit it by any chance?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I am unsure what you are saying here PH.
Can you re-edit it by any chance?

lol we are in the same boat I wasn’t sure what you were saying either .

what I’m saying maybe this would help

the gospel of the kingdom is the fire . It has exactly two applications. One it fulfills the Old Testament promise that God would reveal himself in Christ and speak his true words. This is one aspect of the fire it can refine a believer who hears and accepts the gospel it can purify our heart

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”

‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is a reference to the refiners fire for a believer of the gospel it will “ burn up the chaff in our heart and cleanse away the lust , hate , unforgiveness , pride , greed ect in us that leads us into sin that’s if we hear and believe the messenger of the covenant Jesus Christ

but then what my point is there’s always a second aspect of everything in scripture particularly the gospel so if one was to reject the refiners fire it then becomes the other aspect of that same fire that could have purifies the persons faith in thier heart if they believed and saved them

The gospel of accepted and believed can do this by refining the soul and heart by faith like a refiners fire it burns away the sin inside like this “ I tell you my one who looks after another to list in thier heart has committed adultery of the heart “

that command if accepted cleanses the root of sin commanding the believer to reject the lust like a refiners fire burns up the lust ( chaff) if accepted ot saves in that manner

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

but the same fire of rejected

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then becomes this application of the same gospel flame in the world

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel in the world can save a believer and cleanse away thier sin if we hear and believe the lord like a refiners fire through belief we are changed from sinners into Gods children faith by faith as we grow

but the gospel also burns up our ability to continue on in sin in saves us by its operation in us if we believe but if we don’t that fire is going to consume our a everlasting soul forever by the exact same word that’s meant to save of believe or condemn of rejected

I’m sorry I’m not good at making a concise point what I’m saying is there is a spiritual fire in the world ot was kindled here

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can be saved by Gods word or condemned by it either way it’s through fire that either burns up the internal sin and saves us or we end up in the other aspect of the fire in the end when it’s a raging inescapable blaze

I’m not sure we disagree I just didn’t understand the point you were making

 

[Yahshua]

Good day, Yahshua

Here is both verse 6 & 7 together in the literal:

"And now you know [that] which is restraining for his being revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is working already; there is only [the one] at present restraining it, until [he] might be gone out of the midst."

So, the Restrainer is referred to first as [that] which is restraining in verse 6, then in verse 7 is referred to as [the one] and then finally as [He]. Therefore, it is made plain to us in the scripture that the identity of the Restrainer as referring to a being/person. [The One] and [He] supersedes the word [that] or in your translation [what] in v.6. This type of identification is done in other scriptures as well. For example at the 5th Trumpet:

"And the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw [a star] having fallen out of heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given to [it]. 2And [he] opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit."

So, in the example above the one opening the Abyss is revealed as being [a star] and then is referred to as [it] and then finally as [he] in verse 2. Therefore when we use our reasoning, we know that a literal star cannot given a key nor unlock the Abyss. Then the fact that the star is referred to as [he] tells us that the [the star] is referring to an angel.

There are other examples of this, but I think that you get my point. The final title that is attributed to the Restrainer is as a [He] demonstrating that he is not an inanimate object, or a circumstance, but is a person/being who is restraining the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time.

I hope that this makes sense to you.

Hey, Ahwatukee

Yeah, I get what you're saying...but Paul's letter isn't a vision subject to spiritual understanding like Revelation is. The letter was meant to explain the timing of events to the Thessalonians, clearly, so they weren't misled anymore.

So the basic question Paul is answering is "what's the hold-up for Messiah's return?" And he answers, "well the falling away and man of lawlessness must appear first. Then Paul concludes by saying, "now you know..." meaning, Paul just told us what's **holding up** the Messiah, prior to verse 6. Now the Thessalonians knew - after reading verses 1-5 - what was holding up Messiah's return: the man of lawlessness is to be revealed.

The old Greek word is "katechon" meaning hold fast; hold back" is translated as "restraining" in many versions...and this word is perfectly fine if read in context with verses 1-5.

The phrase I keep coming back to is "now you know...".

If we read verses 6-8 with this interpretation, it fits seamlessly with the first 5 verses:


2 Thess 2:6-8 [my simple reading]
And now you know what's holding up [the Messiah's return], his [the man of lawlessness] being revealed in his time. Because the secret lawlessness is already at work, only he now holds up [the Messiah's return] and will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way. And then that lawless one [just mentioned] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.


Ultimately, we all agree with the order of events: a man of lawlessness appears before the Messiah...but I think we're creating unnecessary doctrine around a Being called "The Restrainer" where no one exists.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hey, Ahwatukee

Yeah, I get what you're saying...but Paul's letter isn't a vision subject to spiritual understanding like Revelation is. The letter was meant to explain the timing of events to the Thessalonians, clearly, so they weren't misled anymore.

So the basic question Paul is answering is "what's the hold-up for Messiah's return?" And he answers, "well the falling away and man of lawlessness must appear first. Then Paul concludes by saying, "now you know..." meaning, Paul just told us what's **holding up** the Messiah, prior to verse 6. Now the Thessalonians knew - after reading verses 1-5 - what was holding up Messiah's return: the man of lawlessness is to be revealed.

The old Greek word is "katechon" meaning hold fast; hold back" is translated as "restraining" in many versions...and this word is perfectly fine if read in context with verses 1-5.

The phrase I keep coming back to is "now you know...".

If we read verses 6-8 with this interpretation, it fits seamlessly with the first 5 verses:


2 Thess 2:6-8 [my simple reading]
And now you know what's holding up [the Messiah's return], his [the man of lawlessness] being revealed in his time. Because the secret lawlessness is already at work, only he now holds up [the Messiah's return] and will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way. And then that lawless one [just mentioned] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.


Ultimately, we all agree with the order of events: a man of lawlessness appears before the Messiah...but I think we're creating unnecessary doctrine around a Being called "The Restrainer" where no one exists.

Yes and also only the last generation of mankind is going to have the end time man of sin be relevant , it’s the spirit of him already at work that’s our enemy and has been the enemy of all the prior generations who won’t be on earth when the man himself is revealed

we often forget that it’s only the final generation that this applies to but salvstion is found now in every generation of we repent of serving that wicked spirit already at work

our fight is against the wicked spirit already here warring against us

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the restraining of the end is pictured several ways probably best being seen here showing the destruction of earth being restrained by the order and command of God until his people are sealed

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

wha relevant is destruction is coming to creation it’s sure, but God has given us a grace period to repent and escape the outcome already determined he’s holding back judgement until the gospel reaches the last soul ordained for salvation

unless the man of sin comes in the next few years it’s a distraction from the real enemy the evil spiritual force in the world against us

 

[Yahshua]

Yes and also only the last generation of mankind is going to have the end time man of sin be relevant , it’s the spirit of him already at work that’s our enemy and has been the enemy of all the prior generations who won’t be on earth when the man himself is revealed

we often forget that it’s only the final generation that this applies to but salvation is found now in every generation of we repent of serving that wicked spirit already at work

our fight is against the wicked spirit already here warring against us

Well...I agree with some of what you say and differ with certain parts (marked in red). I 100% agree the spirit of the lawless one has already been at work since Paul wrote it. It's been here approx. 2000 years. From the text, it's literally what Paul calls "the mystery of lawlessness (i.e. secret lawlessness)" and "the falling away". The way the text reads Paul is saying both are the same thing.

----

Where we differ is I believe the man of lawlessness has been here for a while now. He wasn't present when Paul penned his letter but he's been here for much of these 2000 years and will continue on until he is revealed and taken out of the way. In the meantime he operates publically with his true identity concealed.

When we read the Thessalonian passage we traditionally understand the word "reveal" as if the man of lawlessness is going to appear as a "one world dictator" or announce he is The Lawless One...but Paul says this man will operate with "all deceptiveness" against people "under a strong delusion", and then be revealed (and destroyed) by the Messiah Himself when He comes.

I believe it's The Office of The Papacy.

 

[OldSage]

lol we are in the same boat I wasn’t sure what you were saying either .

what I’m saying maybe this would help

the gospel of the kingdom is the fire . It has exactly two applications. One it fulfills the Old Testament promise that God would reveal himself in Christ and speak his true words. This is one aspect of the fire it can refine a believer who hears and accepts the gospel it can purify our heart

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”

‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is a reference to the refiners fire for a believer of the gospel it will “ burn up the chaff in our heart and cleanse away the lust , hate , unforgiveness , pride , greed ect in us that leads us into sin that’s if we hear and believe the messenger of the covenant Jesus Christ

but then what my point is there’s always a second aspect of everything in scripture particularly the gospel so if one was to reject the refiners fire it then becomes the other aspect of that same fire that could have purifies the persons faith in thier heart if they believed and saved them

The gospel of accepted and believed can do this by refining the soul and heart by faith like a refiners fire it burns away the sin inside like this “ I tell you my one who looks after another to list in thier heart has committed adultery of the heart “

that command if accepted cleanses the root of sin commanding the believer to reject the lust like a refiners fire burns up the lust ( chaff) if accepted ot saves in that manner

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

but the same fire of rejected

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then becomes this application of the same gospel flame in the world

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel in the world can save a believer and cleanse away thier sin if we hear and believe the lord like a refiners fire through belief we are changed from sinners into Gods children faith by faith as we grow

but the gospel also burns up our ability to continue on in sin in saves us by its operation in us if we believe but if we don’t that fire is going to consume our a everlasting soul forever by the exact same word that’s meant to save of believe or condemn of rejected

I’m sorry I’m not good at making a concise point what I’m saying is there is a spiritual fire in the world ot was kindled here

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can be saved by Gods word or condemned by it either way it’s through fire that either burns up the internal sin and saves us or we end up in the other aspect of the fire in the end when it’s a raging inescapable blaze

I’m not sure we disagree I just didn’t understand the point you were making

lol we are in the same boat I wasn’t sure what you were saying either .

what I’m saying maybe this would help

the gospel of the kingdom is the fire . It has exactly two applications. One it fulfills the Old Testament promise that God would reveal himself in Christ and speak his true words. This is one aspect of the fire it can refine a believer who hears and accepts the gospel it can purify our heart

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”

‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is a reference to the refiners fire for a believer of the gospel it will “ burn up the chaff in our heart and cleanse away the lust , hate , unforgiveness , pride , greed ect in us that leads us into sin that’s if we hear and believe the messenger of the covenant Jesus Christ

but then what my point is there’s always a second aspect of everything in scripture particularly the gospel so if one was to reject the refiners fire it then becomes the other aspect of that same fire that could have purifies the persons faith in thier heart if they believed and saved them

The gospel of accepted and believed can do this by refining the soul and heart by faith like a refiners fire it burns away the sin inside like this “ I tell you my one who looks after another to list in thier heart has committed adultery of the heart “

that command if accepted cleanses the root of sin commanding the believer to reject the lust like a refiners fire burns up the lust ( chaff) if accepted ot saves in that manner

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

but the same fire of rejected

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then becomes this application of the same gospel flame in the world

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel in the world can save a believer and cleanse away thier sin if we hear and believe the lord like a refiners fire through belief we are changed from sinners into Gods children faith by faith as we grow

but the gospel also burns up our ability to continue on in sin in saves us by its operation in us if we believe but if we don’t that fire is going to consume our a everlasting soul forever by the exact same word that’s meant to save of believe or condemn of rejected

I’m sorry I’m not good at making a concise point what I’m saying is there is a spiritual fire in the world ot was kindled here

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can be saved by Gods word or condemned by it either way it’s through fire that either burns up the internal sin and saves us or we end up in the other aspect of the fire in the end when it’s a raging inescapable blaze

I’m not sure we disagree I just didn’t understand the point you were making

Well if you don't understand feel free to ask and I'll explain in depth

 

[Rondonmon]

Again, a pre-trib rapture doesn't fit the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 because there's no rapture until Jesus returns. We'll get our rapture immediately after the tribulation. You don't need to do anything except trust God on this one.

Again, you are in denial mode. I don't care that I was taught it means Apostasy, I am not like a Pharisee, I am not wedded to MEN's TRADITIONS, what did Paul mean is all I care about. And Paul is saying DON'T FEAR guys, you will be gathered (DEPART) before the Day of the Lord God's Wrath comes. You can remain in your error until you get to Heaven, and you will see Satan won against you on that battlefront, all because what you BELIEVED can't be wrong. Meanwhile, God wants people he can mold for a reason, so He can shape us even through all of our faults. Men not willing to be wrong can never come fully unto God's truths. The Pharisees couldn't see who Jesus was because of things they had been taught by other men, thus Jesus called them "MEN'S TRADITIONS".

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well if you don't understand feel free to ask and I'll explain in depth

yes I did and then you asked me to re explain which I did and again I’ve said I never understood what you said when you first spoke to me

so yes it would be welcome for you to explain what you
Meant anytime you are discussing with me bro speak freely and as thoroughly as possible I don’t shy away from depth I enjoy it

 

[OldSage]

yes I did and then you asked me to re explain which I did and again I’ve said I never understood what you said when you first spoke to me

so yes it would be welcome for you to explain what you
Meant anytime you are discussing with me bro speak freely and as thoroughly as possible I don’t shy away from depth I enjoy it

yes I did and then you asked me to re explain which I did and again I’ve said I never understood what you said when you first spoke to me

so yes it would be welcome for you to explain what you
Meant anytime you are discussing with me bro speak freely and as thoroughly as possible I don’t shy away from depth I enjoy it

No worries PH.
You said way back, Jesus is coming with fire.
(You know how it is - lots of different posters and we're busy elsewhere, but I think that's what you said) so all I am saying is:
What does it mean 'with fire'.

Ok, now I see your answer.
Let me read properly and we can chat/discuss soon

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Again, you are in denial mode. I don't care that I was taught it means Apostasy, I am not like a Pharisee, I am not wedded to MEN's TRADITIONS, what did Paul mean is all I care about. And Paul is saying DON'T FEAR guys, you will be gathered (DEPART) before the Day of the Lord God's Wrath comes. You can remain in your error until you get to Heaven, and you will see Satan won against you on that battlefront, all because what you BELIEVED can't be wrong. Meanwhile, God wants people he can mold for a reason, so He can shape us even through all of our faults. Men not willing to be wrong can never come fully unto God's truths. The Pharisees couldn't see who Jesus was because of things they had been taught by other men, thus Jesus called them "MEN'S TRADITIONS".

“Again, you are in denial mode.”

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the elect eill be gathered immediately after the tribulation as the world ends when the sun goes dark and stars plummet

are you sure that he’s in denial about the ore tribulation rapture ? Given the lord himself agrees with his interpretation ?

I know we could quote several scripturesigfesting either way but isn’t what e lord said really super clear as a place to set our understanding and then branch out to Paul his witness ? Since you care about what he said specifically

who also taught the same “ rapture “ on the very last day Paul’s saying that some of the church will be alive and remaining when Christ returns so they couldn’t have been raptured

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭


Unless Christs return isn’t at the end after the tribulation then the “rapture “ happens upon his return in the end both the wicked and righteous are gathered

“So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ will return and when he does it’s over then he will gather his people after all the tribulations which began 2600 years ago have passed

There really isn’t a stitch of pre trib raptire doctrine in the Bible or all is based on what Jesus said

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No worries PH.
You said way back, Jesus is coming with fire.
(You know how it is - lots of different posters and we're busy elsewhere, but I think that's what you said) so all I am saying is:
What does it mean 'with fire'.

Ok, now I see your answer.
Let me read properly and we can chat/discuss soon

I like it brother and appreciate your kind and gentle spirit so very much

 

[Runningman]

Again, you are in denial mode. I don't care that I was taught it means Apostasy, I am not like a Pharisee, I am not wedded to MEN's TRADITIONS, what did Paul mean is all I care about. And Paul is saying DON'T FEAR guys, you will be gathered (DEPART) before the Day of the Lord God's Wrath comes. You can remain in your error until you get to Heaven, and you will see Satan won against you on that battlefront, all because what you BELIEVED can't be wrong. Meanwhile, God wants people he can mold for a reason, so He can shape us even through all of our faults. Men not willing to be wrong can never come fully unto God's truths. The Pharisees couldn't see who Jesus was because of things they had been taught by other men, thus Jesus called them "MEN'S TRADITIONS".

Again, the context doesn't allow for a pre-trib rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2 even if "departure" is defined as a pre-trib rapture of the church; it isn't defined that way, but we can test your theory by pretending it is. That's your biggest clue that you're way off target with your interpretation.

Don't take my word for it, reread the chapter really slow. The departure doesn't happen until Christ returns. Christ does not return until He ends the tribulation. That means the rapture is post-trib.

The rest of what you said is just hot air and bluster which doesn't mean anything to me. I can be convinced otherwise with facts from the scripture.