50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[randyk]

lol
Yes in the pretrib rapture the ac is revealed then the rapture then the 7 yr gt then at the very end the raptured church in heaven, (the one you say is not in heaven), comes WITH JESUS , just as the bible says, and destroys the ac and his army.
Vividly taught.

Well, I'm not surprised you laugh--you get my position wrong. I've said the Church is *with God presently in heaven.* I did *not* say the Church is not in heaven! Please quit misrepresenting my position! The departed saints are now with God in heaven. We will join them when Jesus prepares himself to return from heaven. It is then that we will be caught up to him, in a moment, in order to return with them.

 

[VCO]

Or pheasant, or pre-trib, or post-trib,
or road-kill, or ...well lots of things.
Easter bunny....

Have you gone off the DEEP END ? ? ?

You said:

Or pheasant,
or pre-trib,

or post-trib, - is simply confusing the Rapture with the Second Coming, see my Post #5,012 .

or road-kill,

or ...well lots of things,

Easter bunny....

Have you been Drinking ? ? ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2 , I DO believe in a "literal 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ"... post about it lots, too.

You are likely thinking of Truth7t7 [member], who was/is strongly AGAINST it.

OK, right. Haven't seen any posts from him lately. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

JerryInBoston said:
Precursors destroy the pretrib position of imminence. Sad you don't see that.

Too many verses to try and reframe
Pick one and tell me the correct view.

Can you pick one verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

Why are you so confident of your position when you have zero verses that say what you claim?

That is plain bizarre and not a real hard dynamic to see.

Rather, it is "plain bizarre" that anyone would be so confident of a view that Scripture doesn't show.

In fact, Scripture shows just the opposite, in 2 Thess 2:1-3. The Second Advent and rapture occur together.

That is why I am SO confident in my view. The Bible says what I believe because I believe what the Bible says.
You believe something that the Bible doesn't say.

Your confidence is unfounded.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ty, but really, I get what you've been saying. TDW. I just don't see it that way, no matter how many previous posts you or anyone might assume I have not already read.

Okay, I get you... you think the "FALSE CLAIM" that Paul is pointing out in v.2 is saying: "that the RAPTURE is already happened"... and that the Thessalonians would be stupid enough to believe such a false claim, despite having ZERO EVIDENCE to that effect, ... so much so that Paul concerns himself enough to compose a LETTER to them cautioning them not to be disturbed / shaken in mind / troubled by such a [utterly baseless / ZERO-evidenced] "false claim".


I thoroughly disagree that this is the sense of the passage, or the point Paul is conveying here in this context.

But believe that if you wish. You're free to think so.

 

[BenjaminN]

Can you pick one verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

This (1 Thess 4:16-18) happens post-trib (for those raptured to return to earth, for Messiah's Millennial reign, when descending from the clouds after the rapture) when read in context with other verses ( ie. 2Thess2:1, Mathew 24, Revelations 20:4, etc..) :

1 Thessalonians 4

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This (1 Thess 4:16-18) happens post-trib (for those raptured to return to earth, for Messiah's Millennial reign, when descending from the clouds after the rapture) when read in context with other verses ( ie. 2Thess2:1, Mathew 24, Revelations 20:4, etc..) :

1 Thessalonians 4

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

And 2 Thess 2:1-3 nails a post trib rapture, that occurs with the Second Advent of Christ.

The pretribbers just don't have any evidence for Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

 

[Absolutely]

Well, I'm not surprised you laugh--you get my position wrong. I've said the Church is *with God presently in heaven.* I did *not* say the Church is not in heaven! Please quit misrepresenting my position! The departed saints are now with God in heaven. We will join them when Jesus prepares himself to return from heaven. It is then that we will be caught up to him, in a moment, in order to return with them.

If you are saying " prepares himself to return in the clouds and take his pretrib bride to heaven", then yes.

But if you think rev 19 has a disembodied bride becoming the wife and drinking wine in heaven you are mired in an impossibility.

Postrib rapture...as i have solidly laid out, is impossible.

You need the impossible.

You NEED Noah DELIVERED post flood.

You NEED Lot DELIVERED post judgement

You NEED a disembodied bride drinking wine.

You NEED rev 14 GATHERING DURING the trib BY JESUS CUT FROM THE BIBLE.

yes it is comical. And i do get a chuckle from that and postribs trying to unpack the 10 virgin parable.

( it just destroys their deal so completely....but the looks on their faces is classic)

All that investment on a failed doctrine.
Glad God is decisive in his Holy Word.

 

[Absolutely]

This (1 Thess 4:16-18) happens post-trib (for those raptured to return to earth, for Messiah's Millennial reign, when descending from the clouds after the rapture) when read in context with other verses ( ie. 2Thess2:1, Mathew 24, Revelations 20:4, etc..) :

1 Thessalonians 4

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

no postrib rapture anywhere there.
Nor the other 2 references.

But you did mention context.
Care to align your 3 pretrib verses you just posted with ours.?

You isolate verses to make them work in your circles.
None of them say a thing about , nor point to a postrib rapture.

Like i pointed out. You have zero verses.

We alone deliver the substance.
The actual verses.

 

[randyk]

If you are saying " prepares himself to return in the clouds and take his pretrib bride to heaven", then yes.

But if you think rev 19 has a disembodied bride becoming the wife and drinking wine in heaven you are mired in an impossibility.

Postrib rapture...as i have solidly laid out, is impossible.

You need the impossible.

You NEED Noah DELIVERED post flood.

You NEED Lot DELIVERED post judgement

You NEED a disembodied bride drinking wine.

You NEED rev 14 GATHERING DURING the trib BY JESUS CUT FROM THE BIBLE.

yes it is comical. And i do get a chuckle from that and postribs trying to unpack the 10 virgin parable.

( it just destroys their deal so completely....but the looks on their faces is classic)

All that investment on a failed doctrine.
Glad God is decisive in his Holy Word.

If there is an argument in there somewhere I'm missing it! Seems just like so much venting.

Just be happy with your own beliefs. And I'll be happy with what I think the Bible teaches. This isn't a battle between us--we're on the same side. But we have to stick with our own conscience on these matters. I think the Bible teaches Postrib, and you don't. Fine.

 

[Absolutely]

If there is an argument in there somewhere I'm missing it! Seems just like so much venting.

Just be happy with your own beliefs. And I'll be happy with what I think the Bible teaches. This isn't a battle between us--we're on the same side. But we have to stick with our own conscience on these matters. I think the Bible teaches Postrib, and you don't. Fine.

was noah or lot delivered postrib?

Are you convinced the dead rise per 1 thes 4 AFTER ( your doctrine places them after) the living harvested in rev 14.

Or better yet. If Jesus only comes once..like your doctrine trumpets, then Jesus SITTING on a cloud with a sickle in his hand is raising dead people DURING THE GT.

You can not reconcile all that.

 

[Absolutely]

If there is an argument in there somewhere I'm missing it! Seems just like so much venting.

Just be happy with your own beliefs. And I'll be happy with what I think the Bible teaches. This isn't a battle between us--we're on the same side. But we have to stick with our own conscience on these matters. I think the Bible teaches Postrib, and you don't. Fine.

Yes you are missing it.

You claim no raptured go to heaven

That means all the business done in heaven like the marriage supper, drinking wine, and the bride becoming the wife.....all that is done with the saints disembodied .

That is your doctrines fallacy.

 

[Absolutely]

If you are saying " prepares himself to return in the clouds and take his pretrib bride to heaven", then yes.

But if you think rev 19 has a disembodied bride becoming the wife and drinking wine in heaven you are mired in an impossibility.

Postrib rapture...as i have solidly laid out, is impossible.

You need the impossible.

You NEED Noah DELIVERED post flood.

You NEED Lot DELIVERED post judgement

You NEED a disembodied bride drinking wine.

You NEED rev 14 GATHERING DURING the trib BY JESUS CUT FROM THE BIBLE.

yes it is comical. And i do get a chuckle from that and postribs trying to unpack the 10 virgin parable.

( it just destroys their deal so completely....but the looks on their faces is classic)

All that investment on a failed doctrine.
Glad God is decisive in his Holy Word.

^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Absolutely]

And 2 Thess 2:1-3 nails a post trib rapture, that occurs with the Second Advent of Christ.

The pretribbers just don't have any evidence for Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What part of " revealed" is twisted into postrib?

Or is the whole 3 verses which point to nothing of your doctrine what you are hoping to void the pretrib verses?

 

[Absolutely]

And 2 Thess 2:1-3 nails a post trib rapture, that occurs with the Second Advent of Christ.

The pretribbers just don't have any evidence for Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Postrib rapture...as i have solidly laid out, is impossible.

You need the impossible.

You NEED Noah DELIVERED post flood.

You NEED Lot DELIVERED post judgement

You NEED a disembodied bride drinking wine.

You NEED rev 14 GATHERING DURING the trib BY JESUS CUT FROM THE BIBLE.

 

[Absolutely]

Have you gone off the DEEP END ? ? ?

You said:

Or pheasant, View attachment 229191
or pre-trib, View attachment 229192

or post-trib, - is simply confusing the Rapture with the Second Coming, see my Post #5,012 .

or road-kill, View attachment 229193

or ...well lots of things,

Easter bunny....

Have you been Drinking ? ? ? View attachment 229201

I was messing with him and he responded

Just some holiday mischief lol

 

[BenjaminN]

Yes you are missing it.

You claim no raptured go to heaven

That means all the business done in heaven like the marriage supper, drinking wine, and the bride becoming the wife.....all that is done with the saints disembodied .

That is your doctrines fallacy.

You talk about disembodiment, do you know the Groom as well as the brides first bodies gets disembodied. They however both receives transfigured glorified bodies. The Groom received His about 2000 ago and the Bride's will be transfigured at the rapture. (1 Thess 4:16-18)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You talk about disembodiment, do you know the Groom as well as the brides first bodies gets disembodied. They however both receives transfigured glorified bodies. The Groom received His about 2000 ago and the Bride's will be transfigured at the rapture. (1 Thess 4:16-18)

Abs was addressing another poster who says that the "dead in Christ" won't "rise first" from their graves, to get their new glorified / perfected bodies before we are "caught up together with them" in the air (raptured). Abs is not the one saying they'll be "disembodied" at the point in time being referenced by those two posters; he's simply using that word by way of illustration regarding a viewpoint he himself disagrees with (the viewpoint of the other poster saying that "the dead in Christ" will put on their new glorified bodies up in Heaven, where their spirits/souls presently reside; i.e. that the "rise first" regarding them happens THERE). Abs disagrees, as do I.

 

[randyk]

Yes you are missing it.

You claim no raptured go to heaven

That means all the business done in heaven like the marriage supper, drinking wine, and the bride becoming the wife.....all that is done with the saints disembodied .

That is your doctrines fallacy.

You think we're going to drink wine in heaven? Where do you get that from?

I do accept a Rapture to heaven. But it's a U-Turn back to earth, where the Kingdom of Christ will be established. If we are to spend time in heaven after the coming of Christ, it will be in new glorified bodies--not as disembodied spirits.

The saints are presently in heaven in disembodied spirits. But I don't think they're drinking wine!

 

[randyk]

was noah or lot delivered postrib?

Postrib. They entered into the restored earth *after* the Flood. There salvation was in entering into the new earth, and not just in being spared death through the Flood. They certainly weren't taken off the earth during the Flood! They went through it, and entered into their new life *after* it.

Are you convinced the dead rise per 1 thes 4 AFTER ( your doctrine places them after) the living harvested in rev 14.

The dead saints in 1 Thes 4 rise at the same moment the living saints are glorified, which is at the coming of Christ *after* the reign of Antichrist.

The harvest of Rev 14 is also the end of the age, as even Jesus described it. Matt 13:39.

Or better yet. If Jesus only comes once..like your doctrine trumpets, then Jesus SITTING on a cloud with a sickle in his hand is raising dead people DURING THE GT.
You can not reconcile all that.

If you get any of your corollaries wrong, then of course you can't reconcile them! Jesus reaps the harvest at the end of the Reign of Antichrist, and not before.