50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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But, truth has to "hit you" first. And, if you are too proud to question and reconsider what you have been taught, you may "miss out" completely and entirely.
(This post is a general statement to all - not specifically aimed at you.)
Anyone who believes that the 70th week of Daniel is separated from the other 69 - and that - it is a futuristic 7-year "tribulation period" - complete with Antichrist and treaty with Israel - etc. -- their eschatology doesn't stand a chance of being anywhere even remotely close to biblical truth.
Such a person is limping around blind-deaf-and-dumb (where eschatology is concerned) - until their eyes are opened to the truth.
And, when their eyes are opened, all of this useless discussion turns-to-dust and disappears into the dark nothingness - and, the light of the truth chases the dark away...
Until you properly understand Daniel 9:24-27, you are not going to have a proper eschatological perspective - because, you have built your entire eschatology on a lie of Satan.
It is your choice - make it a good one.
Swallow your pride and reconsider...
(This post is a general statement to all - not specifically aimed at you.)
Anyone who believes that the 70th week of Daniel is separated from the other 69 - and that - it is a futuristic 7-year "tribulation period" - complete with Antichrist and treaty with Israel - etc. -- their eschatology doesn't stand a chance of being anywhere even remotely close to biblical truth.
Such a person is limping around blind-deaf-and-dumb (where eschatology is concerned) - until their eyes are opened to the truth.
And, when their eyes are opened, all of this useless discussion turns-to-dust and disappears into the dark nothingness - and, the light of the truth chases the dark away...
Until you properly understand Daniel 9:24-27, you are not going to have a proper eschatological perspective - because, you have built your entire eschatology on a lie of Satan.
It is your choice - make it a good one.
Swallow your pride and reconsider...
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FreeGrace2 said:
It's not a matter of "limitations". It's a matter of prophecy.
Sure, Jesus appeared to Paul and to John. Were they prophesied in the OT? No.
And Jesus appeared to a number of people in the OT a a theophany. They were not prophesied either.
Jesus came to earth as a baby and was the suffering Servant Savior. It's called the First Adveent.
Jesus will come to earth again as King of kings and Lord of lords. it's called the Second Advent.
Neither does "Trinity". So what?
Do you not believe in the Trinity just because that word isn't found in the Bible?
Do you not believe in 2 prophesied comings to earth by the Lord Jesus just because the Bible doesn't label as "first" and "second"?
It's not a matter of "limitations". It's a matter of prophecy.
Sure, Jesus appeared to Paul and to John. Were they prophesied in the OT? No.
And Jesus appeared to a number of people in the OT a a theophany. They were not prophesied either.
Jesus came to earth as a baby and was the suffering Servant Savior. It's called the First Adveent.
Jesus will come to earth again as King of kings and Lord of lords. it's called the Second Advent.
Neither does "Trinity". So what?
Do you not believe in the Trinity just because that word isn't found in the Bible?
Do you not believe in 2 prophesied comings to earth by the Lord Jesus just because the Bible doesn't label as "first" and "second"?
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And that is exactly where you are. Truth has been provided and you have closed your eyes, plugged your ears and started humming.
No, i've given you truth from Scripture. But your eyes/ears aren't open to truth.
2 Thess 2:1 tells us specifically when people are raptured.
Where is the verse that tells us that Jesus takes raptured people to heaven? There are NONE. And that's the truth.
Which you don't seem too much interested in.
No, i've given you truth from Scripture. But your eyes/ears aren't open to truth.
2 Thess 2:1 tells us specifically when people are raptured.
Where is the verse that tells us that Jesus takes raptured people to heaven? There are NONE. And that's the truth.
Which you don't seem too much interested in.
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Where physically (Heaven or Earth) do you see Messiah (in His physical Glorified body) with the raptured (in their physical glorified bodies) having the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and His Bride the Body of Messiah:
Revelation 19
7Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 19
7Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
I disagree that Jesus only ascended once (I have made posts regarding this).
On His Resurrection Day (ON "Firstfruit" Lev23:10-12), when He said to Mary Magdalene, "I ASCEND..." (and TOLD her to GO and "SAY UNTO" them this), I believe He did exactly that, THAT VERY DAY (ON "Firstfruit," thus fulfilling Firstfruit Lev23:10-12); and then later that same evening, rather late, came to them and "stood in the midst of them," and at that point said to them "Handle Me and see..." Luke 24:39.
It was some "40 DAYS" later that He "VISIBLY" ascended, in Acts 1, which is what the "two men stood by them in white apparel" said regarding the manner of His RETURN to the earth, "...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into Heaven, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER as ye have SEEN Him going [/traveling] into Heaven." (that is, "VISIBLY"... He shall "SO" RETURN to the earth);
No one "saw" Jesus do His ["40-DAYS EARLIER"] active "I ASCEND" ON FIRSTFRUIT (His Resurrection Day); it was only "TOLD" to MM (when He "appeared FIRST to MM"-Mark 16:9) and SHE was instructed BY JESUS' WORD to "SAY UNTO" the others-John 20:17 (but note what Jesus had said to them later when He came and "stood in the midst of them," see how He addressed them at that point, here in Mark 16:14[10] - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/16-14.htm "... [He] UPBRAIDED them with their UNBELIEF and HARDNESS OF HEART, because they BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen"--Mary Magdalene being among those, per what we're told in v.10 of her, where it says of her [prior to Jesus Himself coming in their midst, way later that evening], "And she went and told them..."). This pattern is consistent... as I've explained elsewhere...
On His Resurrection Day (ON "Firstfruit" Lev23:10-12), when He said to Mary Magdalene, "I ASCEND..." (and TOLD her to GO and "SAY UNTO" them this), I believe He did exactly that, THAT VERY DAY (ON "Firstfruit," thus fulfilling Firstfruit Lev23:10-12); and then later that same evening, rather late, came to them and "stood in the midst of them," and at that point said to them "Handle Me and see..." Luke 24:39.
It was some "40 DAYS" later that He "VISIBLY" ascended, in Acts 1, which is what the "two men stood by them in white apparel" said regarding the manner of His RETURN to the earth, "...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into Heaven, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER as ye have SEEN Him going [/traveling] into Heaven." (that is, "VISIBLY"... He shall "SO" RETURN to the earth);
No one "saw" Jesus do His ["40-DAYS EARLIER"] active "I ASCEND" ON FIRSTFRUIT (His Resurrection Day); it was only "TOLD" to MM (when He "appeared FIRST to MM"-Mark 16:9) and SHE was instructed BY JESUS' WORD to "SAY UNTO" the others-John 20:17 (but note what Jesus had said to them later when He came and "stood in the midst of them," see how He addressed them at that point, here in Mark 16:14[10] - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/16-14.htm "... [He] UPBRAIDED them with their UNBELIEF and HARDNESS OF HEART, because they BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen"--Mary Magdalene being among those, per what we're told in v.10 of her, where it says of her [prior to Jesus Himself coming in their midst, way later that evening], "And she went and told them..."). This pattern is consistent... as I've explained elsewhere...
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The "very people"?? Where have I claimed such nonsense?
Rev 14 is between the trumpet judgments and the bowl judgments. Is ch 14 the Second Advent? Jesus' Second Advent occurs at the END of the Trib, because His coming ends it.
ch 14 is a vision of John regarding what's to come. It certainly can't be a pretrib rapture because there is nothing about anyone being raptured.
Oh right. I just remembered; you don't need the Bible to actually say something before you believe it. Well, I do.
Way to go. lol
Well, you are just full of false statements, huh. I never "contended" any such thing. They were both delivered while ON EARTH. How's that for annihilation of your view?
In fact, Noah rode out the flood while ON the actual flood. How does that equate to a departure from earth? It doesn't.
What you always avoid is the 10 plagues of Egypt. The Israelites STAYED in Egypt during the 10 plagues.
And of course you aren't interested in the clear parallels between some of the 10 plagues and all the judgments in the GT.
Uh, no. You haven't. You are full of fanasy though.
Rev 14 is between the trumpet judgments and the bowl judgments. Is ch 14 the Second Advent? Jesus' Second Advent occurs at the END of the Trib, because His coming ends it.
ch 14 is a vision of John regarding what's to come. It certainly can't be a pretrib rapture because there is nothing about anyone being raptured.
Oh right. I just remembered; you don't need the Bible to actually say something before you believe it. Well, I do.
Way to go. lol
Well, you are just full of false statements, huh. I never "contended" any such thing. They were both delivered while ON EARTH. How's that for annihilation of your view?
In fact, Noah rode out the flood while ON the actual flood. How does that equate to a departure from earth? It doesn't.
What you always avoid is the 10 plagues of Egypt. The Israelites STAYED in Egypt during the 10 plagues.
And of course you aren't interested in the clear parallels between some of the 10 plagues and all the judgments in the GT.
Uh, no. You haven't. You are full of fanasy though.
Not a simple 2 choice word to your question.
When Jesus is with His raptured/resurrected believers, it is in the clouds in the air. I see this as at the Second Advent because of 2 Thess 2:1-3, where "coming of our Lord" is the Second Advent and "gathering" is the rapture/resurrection.
Regarding Rev 19, yes, it begins in heaven with all those who have already died. But I don't see raptured believers there. The wording leads me to believe that they are prepared (v.7) for the wedding supper. I don't see anything that convinces me that the wedding supper occurs in heaven. Immediately following is the trip to earth.
I see the wedding supper occurring on earth when Jesus sets up His millennial kingdom. That's the perfect time to do it, since all believers at that time will have been resurrected/raptured. And all the surviving humans from the GT will get to watch.
When Jesus is with His raptured/resurrected believers, it is in the clouds in the air. I see this as at the Second Advent because of 2 Thess 2:1-3, where "coming of our Lord" is the Second Advent and "gathering" is the rapture/resurrection.
Regarding Rev 19, yes, it begins in heaven with all those who have already died. But I don't see raptured believers there. The wording leads me to believe that they are prepared (v.7) for the wedding supper. I don't see anything that convinces me that the wedding supper occurs in heaven. Immediately following is the trip to earth.
I see the wedding supper occurring on earth when Jesus sets up His millennial kingdom. That's the perfect time to do it, since all believers at that time will have been resurrected/raptured. And all the surviving humans from the GT will get to watch.
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I don't see the phrase in Rev3:10 to be saying "TO ENDURE PATIENTLY" (as though referring to "you" and "me" and "how well we're doing" in that department).
Rather, I see it saying, "Because you have kept the word of the patient-endurance of Me" or "...kept the word of My patient-endurance"...
(which pertains more to "the WORD OF His patient-endurance"... than it does to "me"... However, we DO exhibit this by grasping things like, it is not "OUR role," as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those having come to faith "in this present age (singular)"] to be doing the praying of the "imprecatory prayers" and the like
)
Rather, I see it saying, "Because you have kept the word of the patient-endurance of Me" or "...kept the word of My patient-endurance"...
(which pertains more to "the WORD OF His patient-endurance"... than it does to "me"... However, we DO exhibit this by grasping things like, it is not "OUR role," as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those having come to faith "in this present age (singular)"] to be doing the praying of the "imprecatory prayers" and the like
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Covenant pact begins Dan's 70th week. Antichrist reveals himself and the abomination that causes desolation occur midpoint, ie, 3 and 1/2 years into Dan's 70th week. Satan's wrath is poured out. The awesome Day of the Lord (God's wrath) comes sometime after the midpoint, after Satan's wrath. Prior to God's wrath poured out the church is harpazoed.
FreeGrace2 said:
I don't see anything that convinces me that the wedding supper occurs in heaven. Immediately following is the trip to earth.
I see the wedding supper occurring on earth when Jesus sets up His millennial kingdom.
Don't you believe that there isn't any literal 1,000 year Millennial reign of Christ?? In spite of Rev 20?
Why would you agree that the Wedding Supper of the Lamb occurs on earth? Or have I confused your view with someone else's?
I don't see anything that convinces me that the wedding supper occurs in heaven. Immediately following is the trip to earth.
I see the wedding supper occurring on earth when Jesus sets up His millennial kingdom.
AGREED!
Glad to know we can agree on something. lol
[I'm sure we differ on the details, but I can wholeheartedly agree with your words as stated in the above-quoted portion of your post]
Glad to know we can agree on something. lol
[I'm sure we differ on the details, but I can wholeheartedly agree with your words as stated in the above-quoted portion of your post]
Why would you agree that the Wedding Supper of the Lamb occurs on earth? Or have I confused your view with someone else's?
@FreeGrace2 , I DO believe in a "literal 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ"... post about it lots, too.
You are likely thinking of Truth7t7 [member], who was/is strongly AGAINST it.
You are likely thinking of Truth7t7 [member], who was/is strongly AGAINST it.
Well said Gary. It is ironic that Daniel 9 24-27 has been furiously debated for some 2500 years, continues so, and really
this one scripture perhaps more than any other shaped in a major way over a century of Jewish History - the most important 100
years in all human history!
If people only understood how foundational Daniel is, and how seriously they need to study him.
Modern theology is addictive unwholesome junk food, filth -
come back to the Church fathers, to Matthew Henry!
this one scripture perhaps more than any other shaped in a major way over a century of Jewish History - the most important 100
years in all human history!
If people only understood how foundational Daniel is, and how seriously they need to study him.
Modern theology is addictive unwholesome junk food, filth -
come back to the Church fathers, to Matthew Henry!