Do catholics worship God or the pope?

[Mark47Oz]

The pope is called Holy Father.


I'm not surprised you are in the dark about the RCC titles for the pope and their parallels to the Trinity. Most RCC members have a nicely padded gigantic Bible in their homes that they never open, but they'll read endless RCC bulletins and RCC catechism.

Not only does the RCC claim that the pope is infallible, here are a few of the titles given to the pope by the RCC that make him the trinity on earth: Holy Father, Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.

The office of pope is called the papacy, which is from the Latin papa, and from the Greek pappas, all of which means Father. The pope is called Holy Father. We have one Holy Father in heaven.

Another title for the bishop of Rome (pope) is supreme pontiff, in Latin it's pontifex maximus, which means High Priest. Jesus the Son is our one true High Priest in heaven with the Father.

Another title for the pope is Vicar of Jesus Christ. Vicar is from the Latin vicarius, which actually means in place of, or substitute. Jesus Christ substituted the Holy Spirit for himself after he ascended to the Father. Jesus sent in his place the Holy Spirit to aid and comfort the church believers. The Holy Spirit is our Vicar of Jesus Christ.

So you see, the RCC hold its leader out as the trinitarian replacement on earth for the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

You claim you are a RCC member; go and test the spirit of the RCC as you are instructed by Apostle John. 1 John 4:1-21. See just how much error you will find.

The word of God is clear: we have one mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ, to whom we speak directly and personally, in a one on one conversation, in our own personal private chamber.

The problem with most in the rcc is their super-dependence on their parish priest to tell them all they need to know.

Oh how little you know me then.

#1) I wandered from all belief for over over 20 years. I was bright back into faith by a Pentecostal Protestant, but I am so heavily drawn to the Catholic church it's crazy.

#2) I have always mixed with non Catholics. 90% of what we believe is exactly the same. The extra 10% is all the historical stuff that a Protestant cannot possibly be expected to know or understand through reliance on the Bible only. 2000 years worth of history and writings of saints, seers and mystics explain it all.

3) The least understood thing about Catholic faith is that the Bible stops at the end of revelation yes. But does that mean God speed talking to us? Did the fruits of Pentecost just dry up and go away? The answer is a definitive no.

My friend, the Bible is the house of faith, but the words of God's prophets furnish it to this day.

 

[Mark47Oz]

https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-cult-of-mary

seems catholics refer to their cults here

Cults are devotional, not worship. Let's get that straight. The cult of Mary for instance is the biggest by far and people look to her for inspiration on how to get closer to Jesus and the Trinity. The RCC is far from the only church that recognises Mary either. All of the Orthodox do. As does the high Anglican church.

After that we have devotions to Saints (Every Catholic picks a role model saint when they go through Confirmation) The stories of saints are fascinating and inspiring.

 

[Athanasius377]

Cults are devotional, not worship. Let's get that straight. The cult of Mary for instance is the biggest by far and people look to her for inspiration on how to get closer to Jesus and the Trinity. The RCC is far from the only church that recognises Mary either. All of the Orthodox do. As does the high Anglican church.

High church Anglicans do not recognize Mary as anyone other than mother of Our Lord and certainly not the idolatrous manner in which Rome describes her. That would be Anglo-catholics who are neither Anglican nor are they catholic.

 

[Mark47Oz]

High church Anglicans do not recognize Mary as anyone other than mother of Our Lord and certainly not the idolatrous manner in which Rome describes her. That would be Anglo-catholics who are neither Anglican nor are they catholic.

I disagree with you on that point. Here is my proof

https://southaustralia.com/products/fleurieu-peninsula/attraction/christ-church-yankalilla

This is an Anglican church in South Australia where an apparition happened in recent times. I've been and checked it out for myself, image and all.

And Orthodox churches always have paintings And icons of Mary. There's even an Orthodox church across the river in Lourdes, France. Plus it was a Coptic church in Warraq Egypt where Mary appeared to over a million Egyptians, both Christian and Muslim.

[MEDIA]

And nobody ever said Mary was an idol or God She's the very human mother of Christ. Everyone knows that.

 

[TheLearner]

read to here

 

[DeanM]

Catholics I know personally dont think about the pope much at all.

 

[Athanasius377]

#2) I have always mixed with non Catholics. 90% of what we believe is exactly the same. The extra 10% is all the historical stuff that a Protestant cannot possibly be expected to know or understand through reliance on the Bible only. 2000 years worth of history and writings of saints, seers and mystics explain it all.

This statement is simply false. No classical protestant maintains such a position. If you are referring to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura then this is a twisting of said doctrine. Sola Scriptura is the maxim that posits that ultimate authority resides in scripture alone as opposed to tradition, councils, popes and the church fathers. Which I would add as Luther pointed out often contradict themselves. I have on my shelf numerous volumes of church history, three multi-volume collections of the writings of the early church fathers. I left Rome precisely because history disputes so many of Rome's claims. Want proof? Try and find authentic early church writer's citation for things like the Immaculate conception of Mary, purgatory, the treasury of merit, transubstantiation and other Roman distinctives. What you will likey get are quotes from Jurgens taken out of context by writers who know nothing of the doctrine they are supposedly supporting or from a straight up forged document. Or a quote that someone just made up out of whole cloth but no one has ever challenged the veracity simply because it has been parroted around the catholic s̶l̶a̶n̶d̶e̶r̶s̶ answers forums for 20 years.

As for mystics, beware. Throughout church history second generation mystics almost always wonder off into myths and eventually outright heresy. If you want to hear God speaking to you, open your bible and read the text aloud. If God so deigns to bless you with gifts and wonders it will undoubtably be to spread the Gospel. Any other reason and you'll find that its the other team you are talking to.

 

[Mark47Oz]

This statement is simply false. No classical protestant maintains such a position. If you are referring to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura then this is a twisting of said doctrine. Sola Scriptura is the maxim that posits that ultimate authority resides in scripture alone as opposed to tradition, councils, popes and the church fathers. Which I would add as Luther pointed out often contradict themselves. I have on my shelf numerous volumes of church history, three multi-volume collections of the writings of the early church fathers. I left Rome precisely because history disputes so many of Rome's claims. Want proof? Try and find authentic early church writer's citation for things like the Immaculate conception of Mary, purgatory, the treasury of merit, transubstantiation and other Roman distinctives. What you will likey get are quotes from Jurgens taken out of context by writers who know nothing of the doctrine they are supposedly supporting or from a straight up forged document. Or a quote that someone just made up out of whole cloth but no one has ever challenged the veracity simply because it has been parroted around the catholic s̶l̶a̶n̶d̶e̶r̶s̶ answers forums for 20 years.

As for mystics, beware. Throughout church history second generation mystics almost always wonder off into myths and eventually outright heresy. If you want to hear God speaking to you, open your bible and read the text aloud. If God so deigns to bless you with gifts and wonders it will undoubtably be to spread the Gospel. Any other reason and you'll find that its the other team you are talking to.

You see it as heresy. That's your choice and I respect your thoughts.

However, I don't. Because I've been to many places of Catholic Devotion (Medjugorje, Fatima, Lourdes). These places are where Catholics become true Christians. If you want to see bible reading, tongues speaking, laying of hands praying Catholics then Medjugorje is the place to be. It is our own Pentecostal revival and it's all done with the motherly guidance of Mary, who for 40 years has called us to convert, give ourselves totally to Jesus and to pray, pray, pray.

Eucharistic miracles, some of which I have shared on here are the sort of thing that reaffirm our belief in transubstantiation. I believe what I believe because I have seen with my own two eyes. And Jesus himself said to Thomas the doubter "Blessed are those who have seen and believe" John 20:29

I have one simple spiritual test for everything I look into. If whatever I am considering for merit leads me closer to Jesus, then it is good. If it leads me down a garden path into a place that is not Jesus, then it is not from God. And yes, there are some claimed events that the church has either condemned, or sit on a knife's edge that don't sit well with me. Garabandal is one of those - too many predictions from that place have turned out to be fake. I think the RCC is just waiting for Conchita to die without announcing her great sign in the pines before they condemn it officially.

 

[Athanasius377]

I disagree with you on that point. Here is my proof

https://southaustralia.com/products/fleurieu-peninsula/attraction/christ-church-yankalilla

This is an Anglican church in South Australia where an apparition happened in recent times. I've been and checked it out for myself, image and all.

That seems to be an anglo-catholic parish. The prayer book they use bears little resemblance to the classic Cramner text. Traditionally Anglicans have formularies, namely the Book of Common prayer, the 39 articles of religion and the ordinal. Anglicans historically are essentially Reformed. Anglo-catholics grow out of the tractarian movement led my Pusey and Newman who in short, taught people to lie about their theological conviction. Which is why Anglicanism is as fractured as it is today. High church Anglicans are those orthodox anglicans that allow for an amount of ceremony typically borrowed from the cathedral tradition in England. They may use a chasuble but more often a cassock, surplice and a tippet over and against a geneva gown. They also typically have a higher view of the sacraments and were the first to allow hymn singing. Historically Anglicans only sang metrical psalms. Anglo-catholics on the other hand will use a missal, or other highly revised prayer book and are virtually indistinguishable from Rome in worship. Compare with the diocese of Sydney.

 

[CS1]

As the title says: do catholics worship God or the pope?

Do they allow the pope to come between them and God?

the catholic church comes between God and the people.

 

[Mark47Oz]

That seems to be an anglo-catholic parish. The prayer book they use bears little resemblance to the classic Cramner text. Traditionally Anglicans have formularies, namely the Book of Common prayer, the 39 articles of religion and the ordinal. Anglicans historically are essentially Reformed. Anglo-catholics grow out of the tractarian movement led my Pusey and Newman who in short, taught people to lie about their theological conviction. Which is why Anglicanism is as fractured as it is today. High church Anglicans are those orthodox anglicans that allow for an amount of ceremony typically borrowed from the cathedral tradition in England. They may use a chasuble but more often a cassock, surplice and a tippet over and against a geneva gown. They also typically have a higher view of the sacraments and were the first to allow hymn singing. Historically Anglicans only sang metrical psalms. Anglo-catholics on the other hand will use a missal, or other highly revised prayer book and are virtually indistinguishable from Rome in worship. Compare with the diocese of Sydney.

It does have a full crucifix at the altar instead of the usual cross and the stations of the cross around it, but no tabernacle or customary Catholic statues. I'm not sure about the gowns the minister wears, I went in during the day when nobody was are around.

Interestingly in the foyer area of it, there is an explanation of the faith and it specifically states that is not against Anglican faith to pray the rosary and acknowledge Mary. It doesn't really say anything else apart from it's part of the diocese of Adelaide.

That particular church is built from UK stone sourced from a previous church or Abbey (can't quite remember which) that was shipped all the way to Australia in order to build it.

https://southernvalesparish.org/christ-church-yankalilla/

 

[Mark47Oz]

the catholic church comes between God and the people.

How so?

Every Catholic is encouraged to read scripture.

Every Catholic is encouraged to pray, both ritualistic prayer and the free speak Protestantism uses.

Every Catholic is encouraged to be ecumenical

Every Catholic is encouraged to participate in the sacraments that are applicable to them

Every Catholic puts Christ first and waits 'in joyful anticipation of his return' (actual words from mass)

If Catholics are not doing the above, then they're not Jesusing properly.

We only answer to the authority of Rome because it's the 'head office' of Catholic Co.

And to be honest, it affects the clergy far more than it does the average layperson parishioner. If the Pope makes decrees, then it's up to the clergy to enforce them. And as can be witnessed by the spineless refusal of Bishops and priests to deny Biden and others communion over supporting abortion, or Germany's defiance against the ban on blessings for gay marriage, in practise the organisation doesn't work as rigidly as non Catholics think.

There has always been dissent, scandal and corruption. Humans are not perfect, so how on earth could we expect to have a perfect organisation? You yourself as a Protestant will know from the writings of Paul that even in the earliest days if the church there were parishes doing the wrong thing. Paul had to admonish them in his letters.

 

[Athanasius377]

It does have a full crucifix at the altar instead of the usual cross and the stations of the cross around it, but no tabernacle or customary Catholic statues. I'm not sure about the gowns the minister wears, I went in during the day when nobody was are around.

A Crucifix is fine and orthodox. Even Lutheran churches have them. And there would be no tabernacle because that is a relatively late addition (1600's) to the altar. The tractarian movement was essentially romantic and wanted to re-create the church in the middle ages so the elements are kept off to the side.

Interestingly in the foyer area of it, there is an explanation of the faith and it specifically states that is not against Anglican faith to pray the rosary and acknowledge Mary. It doesn't really say anything else apart from it's part of the diocese of Adelaide.

Compare with article XXII.
The Romish doctrine concerning purgatory, pardons, worshipping and adoration as well of images as of relics, and also invocation of saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

Bray, G. (2009). The Faith We Confess: An Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles (p. 118). London: The Latimer Trust.

That explanation is simply false. Anglo-catholics don't bother to defend themselves, they simply assert something and pay no attention even if it defies the historical setting they are trying to re-create.

 

[CS1]

How so?

Every Catholic is encouraged to read scripture.

Every Catholic is encouraged to pray, both ritualistic prayer and the free speak Protestantism uses.

Every Catholic is encouraged to be ecumenical

Every Catholic is encouraged to participate in the sacraments that are applicable to them

Every Catholic puts Christ first and waits 'in joyful anticipation of his return' (actual words from mass)

If Catholics are not doing the above, then they're not Jesusing properly.

We only answer to the authority of Rome because it's the 'head office' of Catholic Co.

And to be honest, it affects the clergy far more than it does the average layperson parishioner. If the Pope makes decrees, then it's up to the clergy to enforce them. And as can be witnessed by the spineless refusal of Bishops and priests to deny Biden and others communion over supporting abortion, or Germany's defiance against the ban on blessings for gay marriage, in practise the organisation doesn't work as rigidly as non Catholics think.

There has always been dissent, scandal and corruption. Humans are not perfect, so how on earth could we expect to have a perfect organisation? You yourself as a Protestant will know from the writings of Paul that even in the earliest days if the church there were parishes doing the wrong thing. Paul had to admonish them in his letters.

How so? it's very clear in your own post you exalted "Catholic " 7 times and only glossed over Christ once. Your worship the church and pride yourself on being the first denomination. The "Catholic " church has many firsts.

They were the first to take the word of God away from the people
They were the first to fleece the flock with false teaching like paying for your sins
They were the first to teach praying to dead saints
They were the first to mix pagan practices with Christianity
They were the first to persecute other Christians while claiming to be Christians
They were the first to the infallibility of their own denomination
They were the first to teach the full benefit of salvation ONLY through their "church"


You ask how so? There you go.

 

[ResidentAlien]

It's the same Jesus, there is only one.

Catholics show Jesus on the cross to remind themselves of the ultimate price he paid so we could all be saved. Our profession of faith states 'Jesus died, was buried and on the third day, he rose again' So we definitely 100% believe in his resurrection too. Without his resurrection, he'd just be another religious agitator like the Jews accused him to be.

Jesus told us what to do to remember his sacrifice. . .the Lord's supper. "Do this in remembrance of Me." And, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." (1Corinthians 11)

I suppose wearing a crucifix with the Savior still on it would remind a person of His death; but it's not how He instructed us to remember it.

 

[Jackson123]

Every Catholic is encouraged to be ecumenical

I believe the word eucomonical here mean unity.

How we unite church if the teaching is not unite.

I believe in time of 7 years they will unite church by force, include Muslim.

Remember ccc 841

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

This is only political propaganda to build foundation for one world government, devil use big religion, catholic to unite all religion under one leader, to make easier to create the one world government.

Look good, but there is poison on it.

No body want to eat poison if they know, but people eat it if they think it is good food.

Unity is good food, but if one put poison on it, it will be deadly

 

[Mark47Oz]

I believe the word eucomonical here mean unity.

How we unite church if the teaching is not unite.

I believe in time of 7 years they will unite church by force, include Muslim.

Remember ccc 841

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

This is only political propaganda to build foundation for one world government, devil use big religion, catholic to unite all religion under one leader, to make easier to create the one world government.

Look good, but there is poison on it.

No body want to eat poison if they know, but people eat it if they think it is good food.

Unity is good food, but if one put poison on it, it will be deadly

Okay....

Catholicism teaches unity to bring us all together. Any clergy member who has half a brain knows that it's not going to happen in terms of one world church.

There are many secrets about the RCC being prophesied from within. And they're not to do with world domination. I'm researching this field at the moment and how it ties in with Protestant end time beliefs.

All I can say is if there is a single shred of truth to what Catholic prophets are saying, then the tribulation is on its way after a giant wake up call (the warning) God plans to give us all one last chance before he unleashes his wrath. And said warning is due sometime in the next thirty years or so.

I'm in the RCC for it's beliefs, not it's hierarchy. And it's beliefs have been shown to me to be truthful.

 

[Athanasius377]

How so? it's very clear in your own post you exalted "Catholic " 7 times and only glossed over Christ once. Your worship the church and pride yourself on being the first denomination. The "Catholic " church has many firsts.

They were the first to take the word of God away from the people
They were the first to fleece the flock with false teaching like paying for your sins
They were the first to teach praying to dead saints
They were the first to mix pagan practices with Christianity
They were the first to persecute other Christians while claiming to be Christians
They were the first to the infallibility of their own denomination
They were the first to teach the full benefit of salvation ONLY through their "church"


You ask how so? There you go.

Don’t confuse Roman with catholic. I know Rome prefers that name but historically the word meant the universal church over and against heretical bodies. As an Anglican I am catholic, just as a Lutheran is also catholic or a Reformed believer is catholic. We are not Roman nor did invent these novel doctrines. Rome did, not the church catholic.

 

[Athanasius377]

Okay....

Catholicism teaches unity to bring us all together. Any clergy member who has half a brain knows that it's not going to happen in terms of one world church.

There are many secrets about the RCC being prophesied from within. And they're not to do with world domination. I'm researching this field at the moment and how it ties in with Protestant end time beliefs.

All I can say is if there is a single shred of truth to what Catholic prophets are saying, then the tribulation is on its way after a giant wake up call (the warning) God plans to give us all one last chance before he unleashes his wrath. And said warning is due sometime in the next thirty years or so.

I'm in the RCC for it's beliefs, not it's hierarchy. And it's beliefs have been shown to me to be truthful.

There have been thousands of so called prophets throughout the RCC history and almost all to a person have been proven by RCC authorities to have been false. One of the more fantastical accounts occurred during Luther’s time where a mystic nun swore that she had lived only by consuming the Eucharist and hadn’t had a bowel movement in over a decade. Spoiler , she was burned at the stake after being caught eating a rather large meal. Or was she drowned ina. River. I don’t recall. And this was hardly a unique occurance Yet the point remains there are profits and then there are prophets. True prophets are always 100% correct or according to Deuteronomy they are to be executed.
the “seers in the parish I attended were full of excrement. All of them.

If God almighty wants to communicate with someone I highly doubt he’s going to put Mary on my French toast. Just saying.

 

[Mark47Oz]

There have been thousands of so called prophets throughout the RCC history and almost all to a person have been proven by RCC authorities to have been false. One of the more fantastical accounts occurred during Luther’s time where a mystic nun swore that she had lived only by consuming the Eucharist and hadn’t had a bowel movement in over a decade. Spoiler , she was burned at the stake after being caught eating a rather large meal. Or was she drowned ina. River. I don’t recall. And this was hardly a unique occurance Yet the point remains there are profits and then there are prophets. True prophets are always 100% correct or according to Deuteronomy they are to be executed.
the “seers in the parish I attended were full of excrement. All of them.

If God almighty wants to communicate with someone I highly doubt he’s going to put Mary on my French toast. Just saying.

🙄

Jesus or Mary on toast is clearly a faulty toaster or an April fool joke.

Lay people prophets are generally unguided and incorrect. I agree with you.

But I don't listen to those ones. Give me a little credit, I'm not gullible.