Which denomination guides God's Church the Body of Messiah through this future event (Rev 20:4)?
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For one, I have not in the past 15 years believed in the pre-trib Rapture, and this Verse reference gives more credence to my idealism. Now, which Denomination is promoting that idea? Good question! The majority are still thinking they will magically escape the Tribulation and the End Times. And they might if they naturally die before it happens. But for the rest of the living Believers in Christ, Revelation Chapter 20 and Verse 4 is something they might as well get acquainted with. But also knowing That Christ said, "[Immediately] after the Great Tribulation to watch for signs and His Second Coming," tells me not all Believers will face Revelation 20:4, but will survive the entire 7 years and be Caught Up when Christ returns.
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It won't be any particular denomination. Daniel 11:33 says: "And those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will fall by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder for many days." It will be those with wisdom and insight. That's why I quit looking for a denomination; I look for the wise, wherever they may be found.
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it’s a reference to the martyrs throughout time
notice this part about a certain amount of time having to pass before it was complete ?
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”
Revelation 6:9-11 KJV
So the ot martyrs who were killed for testifying of Christ in prophecy even from Abel were awaiting in heaven before Gods throne , the time of thier deaths being avenged by God on the earth and he tells them they must wait a time until the rest of ten martyrs were killed
there are tens of thousands of Christian martyrs still killed each year in the world . Revelation isn’t a linear or chronologically ordered book the time period of the martyrs was from Abel until the end of The world when he returns to avenge all wrongs including the murder of his children by satans children in earth
as they were calling for . We can see there is a time period they are waiting in heaven for things to be fulfilled on earth so then we see the purpose of the other descriptions of the things happening on earth during this time of waiting for his return and revenge upon the wicked
“And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:”
Revelation 13:15-16
So later you see the progression.
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
Revelation 20:4 KJV
one of the points of this is what’s happening in chapter 6 in the heavens , relates to the same time period as wha the happening on earth in chapter 13 and on .
the martyrs even from Abel forward have a special place in the kingdom a special reward in that they don’t have to ever face judgement giving thier own life for the cause of the kingdom they are honored members of the kingdom
it’s not about a denomination or certain time period but it’s about men of God martyred in the earth for testifying his word therin being killed because of that from Abel to the last martyr , to die in faith overcomes the world no matter what the year or denomination
notice this part about a certain amount of time having to pass before it was complete ?
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”
Revelation 6:9-11 KJV
So the ot martyrs who were killed for testifying of Christ in prophecy even from Abel were awaiting in heaven before Gods throne , the time of thier deaths being avenged by God on the earth and he tells them they must wait a time until the rest of ten martyrs were killed
there are tens of thousands of Christian martyrs still killed each year in the world . Revelation isn’t a linear or chronologically ordered book the time period of the martyrs was from Abel until the end of The world when he returns to avenge all wrongs including the murder of his children by satans children in earth
as they were calling for . We can see there is a time period they are waiting in heaven for things to be fulfilled on earth so then we see the purpose of the other descriptions of the things happening on earth during this time of waiting for his return and revenge upon the wicked
“And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:”
Revelation 13:15-16
So later you see the progression.
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
Revelation 20:4 KJV
one of the points of this is what’s happening in chapter 6 in the heavens , relates to the same time period as wha the happening on earth in chapter 13 and on .
the martyrs even from Abel forward have a special place in the kingdom a special reward in that they don’t have to ever face judgement giving thier own life for the cause of the kingdom they are honored members of the kingdom
it’s not about a denomination or certain time period but it’s about men of God martyred in the earth for testifying his word therin being killed because of that from Abel to the last martyr , to die in faith overcomes the world no matter what the year or denomination
What it is saying is only martyrs and overcomers will reign with Christ during the 1, 000 years.
It is what Paul was talking about when he said we must run the race to win the prize, he feared that after preaching to others he himself might be disqualified.
All who have trusted in Christ for salvation will be saved ... but not all will reign.
It is what Paul was talking about when he said we must run the race to win the prize, he feared that after preaching to others he himself might be disqualified.
All who have trusted in Christ for salvation will be saved ... but not all will reign.
Hello AandW,
I like their root beer by the way.
Likewise, I have not in the last 45 years believed in a mid or post tribulation gathering of the church. The error here is not understanding who the group is in Rev.20:4-6 who are being resurrected.
The other problem with a post tribulation gathering, is that it puts the living church through the entire wrath of God, of which scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer. And it is not speaking about the wrath of being condemned at the great white throne judgment, but any of God's wrath and that because Jesus already satisfied that on behalf of every believer. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ.
Once the church has been gathered, there will be those who will become believers after the gathering and during the time of God's wrath, who are not the church. These are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17 as that great number which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which makes them Gentile believers. The fact that the elder is asking John who this group is, after he just previously wrote to the seven churches supports the fact that they are not the church, but a new group being introduced. It is further supported by the fact that when the elder asks John who they are, he says that he doesn't know. These are those same saints of Rev.20:4-6 whom the beast will make war against and conquer during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. This group will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death, but will keep their testimony of Jesus, the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark.
In further support of the church not being on the earth during the time of God's wrath/tribulation, the last time the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is at the end of chapter 3. Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered and which is why the word 'ekklesia/church' no longer appears in the narrative of God's wrath. It is a clue from God that His church is no longer on the earth.
Therefore, the church will indeed supernaturally escape according to the Lord's promise to come and get us to take us back to the Father's house to those places that the Lord went to prepare for us, of which 1 Thess.4:16-17 reveals in detail.
The Lord's return for His church as always been imminent. For those who believe in a mid or post tribulation gathering of the church it cannot be imminent, because God's wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place first. Therefore, those who are looking for the pre-tribulation gathering of the church, are looking for the Lord's imminent appearing. Where those who believe in a mid or post tribulation gathering, must first look for the wrath of God and the pouring out of the 7th bowl before Christ can gather us. In that case there would be no comforting each other with those words of being changed and caught up Nor would the gathering be a blessed hope, because the church would be on the earth exposed to the same plagues of wrath that the wicked will be exposed to.
However, Paul makes it clear that sudden destruction will come upon those who do not believe and that they will not escape that time of God's wrath and that believers do not belong to the darkness or the night will escape so that this day should surprise us like a thief.
God's wrath is not for believers who are remaining faithful and watching for the Lord's appearing. It is going to come in fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem and upon a Christ rejecting world. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore must be gathered prior to said wrath.
I like their root beer by the way.
Likewise, I have not in the last 45 years believed in a mid or post tribulation gathering of the church. The error here is not understanding who the group is in Rev.20:4-6 who are being resurrected.
The other problem with a post tribulation gathering, is that it puts the living church through the entire wrath of God, of which scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer. And it is not speaking about the wrath of being condemned at the great white throne judgment, but any of God's wrath and that because Jesus already satisfied that on behalf of every believer. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ.
Once the church has been gathered, there will be those who will become believers after the gathering and during the time of God's wrath, who are not the church. These are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17 as that great number which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which makes them Gentile believers. The fact that the elder is asking John who this group is, after he just previously wrote to the seven churches supports the fact that they are not the church, but a new group being introduced. It is further supported by the fact that when the elder asks John who they are, he says that he doesn't know. These are those same saints of Rev.20:4-6 whom the beast will make war against and conquer during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. This group will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death, but will keep their testimony of Jesus, the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark.
In further support of the church not being on the earth during the time of God's wrath/tribulation, the last time the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is at the end of chapter 3. Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered and which is why the word 'ekklesia/church' no longer appears in the narrative of God's wrath. It is a clue from God that His church is no longer on the earth.
Therefore, the church will indeed supernaturally escape according to the Lord's promise to come and get us to take us back to the Father's house to those places that the Lord went to prepare for us, of which 1 Thess.4:16-17 reveals in detail.
The Lord's return for His church as always been imminent. For those who believe in a mid or post tribulation gathering of the church it cannot be imminent, because God's wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place first. Therefore, those who are looking for the pre-tribulation gathering of the church, are looking for the Lord's imminent appearing. Where those who believe in a mid or post tribulation gathering, must first look for the wrath of God and the pouring out of the 7th bowl before Christ can gather us. In that case there would be no comforting each other with those words of being changed and caught up Nor would the gathering be a blessed hope, because the church would be on the earth exposed to the same plagues of wrath that the wicked will be exposed to.
However, Paul makes it clear that sudden destruction will come upon those who do not believe and that they will not escape that time of God's wrath and that believers do not belong to the darkness or the night will escape so that this day should surprise us like a thief.
God's wrath is not for believers who are remaining faithful and watching for the Lord's appearing. It is going to come in fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem and upon a Christ rejecting world. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore must be gathered prior to said wrath.
I don't believe that Believers will actually suffer during the Tribulation in proportion to how those who have denied God will. Satan will [Never} have power over the body of Christ before/during/after his minimal reign. Grant it, there may be casualties, but it's not going to be a world wide suffering. The only dilemma will be food, medical, banking, etc because we will be in hiding and never take the [Mark]. But I believe we will thrive and still be worshiping the One True God and He will be continually supplying our needs. And, He will shorten the days for our sake. But [Nowhere] does it speak of 2 Comings by Christ. That literally is as UN-BIBLICAL as it gets!
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