2 Thessalonians 2

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 3, 2021

Speaking of the word "YOU"... when you quoted v.10 (your Post #14), you placed the word "YOU" 3x in that verse (whereas I only see the word "you" 1x in the Greek of that verse

... I don't even see the call for "an understood 'you'" in that verse)

I do happen to find that problematic, and misleading, regarding what the text itself is actually conveying, here. = )

That's how I see it.

OldSage · Jul 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I think the problem that you have here TDW is that you have an understanding of the Day of The Lord as
one fixed event (still in the future). This is really not how the Bible uses the expression, as it refers to
the Lord's wrath, but not always in the context that you want it,

What is missing from the picture here is that God's hand is not revealed sometimes.
What do I mean?

Well you have to go back to the parable of the thief and chew on it and indeed all parables.
The whole point of parables is that God was hiding his hand, simple as that.
And actually the same logic extends to the wrath, the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem.

When you acknowledge and understand this principle, then I'll carry on.

(I've used some embellishments to help!!)

OldSage · Jul 4, 2021

Parables really are all about revelation and concealment

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the hidden things (misterion) of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

So there are hidden things, which can be revealed (apokalypto); sometimes they are revealed exclusively to the disciples at the time, sometimes the revelation comes later.

Matthew11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Are you with me here TDW?
Once this is understood, then we can talk about the Day of the Lord and the REVELATION of Christ,
and what exactly God was hiding from Apostate Israel.

Luk 17:30 - Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

crossnote · Jul 4, 2021

The Day of the Lord is not a mystery introduced in the NT as most mysteries (of Paul) were, but rather the Day of the Lord is well attested to in the OT by the Prophets.
e.g.
Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9;
Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3;
Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14;
Amos 5:18,20;
Obadiah 15;
Zephaniah 1:7,14;
Zechariah 14:1;
Malachi 4:5

OldSage · Jul 4, 2021

crossnote said:

You simply are not understanding what a hidden thing is CN.
Every parable Jesus spoke is a misterion, as he was hiding things from Israel.
I am not aware of Paul introducing mysteries, his purpose was to explain them.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 4, 2021

OldSage said:

I don't view it the way you suggest that I do.

I see "the day of the Lord" (the future one) to consist of ALL THREE of the following aspects:

[1]--the 7 year tribulation upon the earth (the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" aspect [associated with the "NIGHT WATCHES" and "LAMPS LIT"]; Jesus' Own Personal Presence [physically / bodily / tangibly] is NOT REQUIRED as "OPENLY MANIFEST" for this aspect... but will commence when Jesus WILL [future to us] "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, (Lam2:3-4 in parallel language to that of 2Th2:7b-8a... "he hath DRAWN BACK HIS RIGHT HAND from before the enemy"... saying, in effect, "have at 'em!"--See also Hab1:6,12 where God HAS ORDAINED "the Chaldeans / Babylonians" FOR JUDGMENT / TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT... ; Jesus is the One OPENING "SEAL #1" from His position UP IN Heaven);

[2]--His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect; THIS is His "MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" 2Th2:8b / "OPENLY MANIFEST" 1Tim6:15 [/Rev19:16 / 17:14], in conjunction with Rom8:19, Col3:4, 2Th1:10, etc...; This DOES require His Own Personal Presence when "EVERY EYE" existing on the earth SHALL SEE HIM, literally;

[3]--His 1000 yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect; I doubt we have much disagreement here, except if you are not also calling this [one aspect OF the VERY LONG TIME PERIOD known as] "the day of the Lord" as I am);

ALL THREE ASPECTS ^ ... where He is both operating in JUDGMENTs as well as GOVERNING / RULING [and "rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]" kinds of things--OF very lengthy DURATION; "He hath FIXED A DAY..." is one such passage [not referring to merely "a singular 24-hr" kind of "day"

]; ALL OF it entirely earthly-located [as you may agree on that particular point])...

The DOTL: "a period of time (of more than merely 24-hrs in length) of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth, and then also a period of time (of more than merely 24-hrs in length) of BLESSINGs unfolding upon the earth"--ALL OF THAT, which is a very LENGTHY time-period, with MUCH transpiring WITHIN IT (some texts say of it: "IN WHICH"... that is, "IN WHICH" TIME PERIOD, much will transpire).

Am I making sense? lol

OldSage · Jul 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I don't view it the way you suggest that I do.

I see "the day of the Lord" (the future one) to consist of ALL THREE of the following aspects:

--the 7 year tribulation upon the earth (the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" aspect [associated with the "NIGHT WATCHES" and "LAMPS LIT"]; Jesus' Own Personal Presence [physically / bodily / tangibly] is NOT REQUIRED as "OPENLY MANIFEST" for this aspect... but will commence when Jesus WILL [future] "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, (Lam2:3-4 in parallel language to that of 2Th2:7b-8a... "he hath DRAWN BACK HIS RIGHT HAND from before the enemy"... saying, in effect, "have at 'em!"--See also Hab1:6,12 where God HAS ORDAINED "the Chaldeans / Babylonians" FOR JUDGMENT / TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT... ; Jesus is the One OPENING "SEAL #1" from His position UP IN Heaven);

--His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect; THIS is His "MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" 2Th2:8b / "OPENLY MANIFEST" 1Tim6:15 [/Rev19:16 / 17:14], in conjunction with Rom8:19, Col3:4, 2Th1:10, etc...; This DOES require His Own Personal Presence when "EVERY EYE" existing on the earth SHALL SEE HIM, literally;

--His 1000 yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect; I doubt we have much disagreement here, except if you are not also calling this [one aspect OF the VERY LONG TIME PERIOD known as] "the day of the Lord" as I am);

ALL THREE ASPECTS... where He is both operating in JUDGMENTs as well as GOVERNING / RULING [and "rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]" kinds of things--OF very lengthy DURATION; "He hath FIXED A DAY..." is one such passage [not referring to merely "a singular 24-hr" kind of "day"

])...

The DOTL: "a period of time (of more than merely 24-hrs in length) of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth, and then also a period of time (of more than merely 24-hrs in length) of BLESSINGs unfolding upon the earth"--ALL OF THAT, which is a very LENGTHY time-period, with MUCH transpiring WITHIN IT (some texts say of it: "IN WHICH"... that is, "IN WHICH" TIME PERIOD, much will transpire).

Am I making sense? lol

If you don't understand this then I cannot help you.
You will continue to perpetuate the scrambled egg nonsense of
modern theology

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 4, 2021

OldSage said:

I have already supplied (reference to) the words Jesus Himself SAID on the very day the "69 Wks [total]" were CONCLUDED:

41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

I'm not denying things are "hid" and "revealed"... why do you perceive so, about my view?? I've supplied a ton of passages (in this and other threads) regarding the same.

Some of the issues I have with your viewpoint have more to do with the "CHRONOLOGY" issues, that I perceive your viewpoint as bypassing / overlooking... that's all.

OldSage · Jul 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Not interested TDW, you are not making much sense at the best of times.
I will try and help you if you want to listen, but otherwise the dialogue is over.
All the best OS. (I don't know why I chose this stupid name lol)

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 4, 2021

[FYI] I had added the following sentence, after you grabbed / quoted my post, apparently:

"Some of the issues I have with your viewpoint have more to do with the "CHRONOLOGY" issues, that I perceive your viewpoint as bypassing / overlooking... that's all."

I find that a tough hurdle to get over, see... But CONVINCE ME!!

2ndTimothyGroup · Jul 4, 2021

It's amazing that you guys can go back and forth as you do. I just don't have the Heart for it.

OldSage · Jul 4, 2021

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Seriously 2T2 , me neither.
Patience has expired.
That is why I tried to pin TDW to a teaching/learning agenda, simply to eliminate
all the endless guff, but she/he wasn't able to do that

OldSage · Jul 4, 2021

2ndTimothyGroup said:

I actually read the Bible on a need to know basis 2T2.
Sometimes not a lot, and then sometimes one has spates where you get into a subject.
The forum is a catalyst I find.
The questions and cut and thrust act as a stimulus.
Then when your thoughts have crystalized you can cut to the chase, (like in this thread where
i am not interested any more in circumambulations)

I've been on two or three weeks but I've understood a couple of things about Matt 24 (etc)
that I hadn't seen before.

That is God's Word. Very complex and challenging at times. Often lots of hidden layers.
If we ever think we've mastered a subject, or 'got it', we are usually deluding ourselves,
or at least defrauding God at some level, because there is so much he has to tell us,
when we are ready of course!

2ndTimothyGroup · Jul 4, 2021

OldSage said:

I actually read the Bible on a need to know basis 2T2.
Sometimes not a lot, and then sometimes one has spates where you get into a subject.
The forum is a catalyst I find.
The questions and cut and thrust act as a stimulus.
Then when your thoughts have crystalized you can cut to the chase, (like in this thread where
i am not interested any more in circumambulations)

I've been on two or three weeks but I've understood a couple of things about Matt 24 (etc)
that I hadn't seen before.

That is God's Word. Very complex and challenging at times. Often lots of hidden layers.
If we ever think we've mastered a subject, or 'got it', we are usually deluding ourselves,
or at least defrauding God at some level, because there is so much he has to tell us,
when we are ready of course!

If you've never read the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological order, you've got to do it. It'll blow your mind.

OldSage · Jul 4, 2021

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Yeh, I normally get to Exodus and it all gets a bit upsetting

crossnote · Jul 4, 2021

OldSage said:

Mysteries were things not revealed in the OT but were brought forth in the teachings concerning the Church, such as
The rapture…
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Joint heirs of Jews and Gentiles…
Ephesians 3:4-6 KJV
[4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Christ in us…
Colossians 1:26-27 KJV
[26] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: [27] To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Mystery of iniquity…
2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

and there are others.

I don’t know why you challenged my statement, you were referring to the hiddenness of parables, I never brought them up.

OldSage · Jul 4, 2021

crossnote said:

Mysteries were things not revealed in the OT but were brought forth in the teachings concerning the Church, such as
The rapture…
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Joint heirs of Jews and Gentiles…
Ephesians 3:4-6 KJV
[4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Christ in us…
Colossians 1:26-27 KJV
[26] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: [27] To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Mystery of iniquity…
2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

and there are others.

I don’t know why you challenged my statement, you were referring to the hiddenness of parables, I never brought them up.

Ah sorry Crossnote. I completely misunderstood what you meant. My apologies.

Thank you. Exactly. The Day of the Lord is a mystery.
Thank you for commenting.

Mem · Jul 4, 2021

OldSage said:

It's so whenever I read it, the tune to the star spangled banner runs through my head... Ol'Sage, can you seeee, by the dawn's surly heights Whatso proudly we failed at the highlights last leaning? Whose bold type and brack bars, throw the pear in less fight Or the ran parts we washed...

Happy Independence Day

OldSage · Jul 4, 2021

Mem said:

Yes, reading TDW is like that, especially the bold type, black bars and the feeling someone is throwing pears at you

Ogom · Jul 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

^ @OldSage ,

Okay, right... so what I'd put at the first linked post has to do with this ^ point, which post I will quote (in part), here, for the readers:

[quoting]

--1:7-8 says, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels [note: "7 angels... 7 trumpets... 7 vials

] in flaming fire INFLICTING *VENGEANCE ON them that..." (on those *same* persons that 2Th2:10-12 says that "GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" *during* that SAME FUTURE, SPECIFIC, LIMITED TIME-PERIOD) [*where "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (Lk18:8) is the SAME TIME-PERIOD that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says of "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (same phrase also in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"...) ALL speaking of that SAME *future*, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the 7-yr Trib" (i.e. from SEAL #1 to His RETURN to the earth in Rev19)].

[end quoting from that linked post]

____________

THAT ^ is the substance of the "false claim" that Paul is drawing att'n to in 2Th2:2, the "false claim" saying: that THAT ^ TIME PERIOD "is ALREADY HERE / is ALREADY PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]". (i.e. it already STARTED at some point in the PAST, and its results/effects are CONTINUING INTO THE PRESENT)

Paul is saying, "NOT!" Do not believe that "false claim".

And here's WHY.

if it's this [exact]/ [and] //of [a] [[certain] way]/ ]/of ] [thinking]/ [chosen] / [by] /[you] ? [then] [some] will//] [be]

[lost] / [long] [before] // they] [ever] /[figure] [it]/ out] [don't] /[you] /[think] ?

2 Thessalonians 2

Well-known member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

Banned

Banned

Well-known member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Active member