50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
Well, there are a lot of threads going on in this BDF section, I'm sure it's not easy keeping it all straight as to who said what and when, and what point someone has already made and what their reasonings were for saying it...
One thing I'd like to see though, is... when I state my viewpoint, that someone [with differing view] "play back" what I've said, using their own words; but what I see happening is, when they "play back" my viewpoint, it's not actually "my viewpoint" they're playing back to me... as though they cannot even "step into the shoes" of the other's viewpoint without injecting their own thoughts / idea into it (that wasn't being expressed by the other person).

I am probably totally unique in this, but I find that when you remove all the bells and whistles from the text, and present it in plain English, as above, I understand what you are saying much more readily. Normally I feel that I am at a modern Art installation, and I find myself just staring at the visual impact of your post for hours before I can even begin to think about trying to assimilate its meaning. At least there is no strobe effect on the editor, or otherwise I think I'd get a migraine.

NOTED, thanks!



[NOTE to self: OS is perfectly "okay" with: ellipses..., brackets, "quotation marks", italics (not to mention, the slash/virgule ), parenthesis, CAPS (for condensing title), & emoji... all of which I had used in that post; the only ones I don't think I used were the underline and bold features... oh, and the SIZE feature... GOT IT! (notice I did not use them here, for OS's sake... )]

 

[Mem]

Let me draw your attention to what I've addressed in past posts of this thread... a couple of things in particular, to this point ^ ...
where I'm showing that Paul is not starting an entirely new Subject in chapter 2 from that of what he'd already been speaking of in the previous chapter ( @FreeGrace2 also). But I find two significant issues with how many people interpret chpt 1 (and consequently parts of chpt 2):

[I've pointed out...]

--wherever the phrases "the day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used (throughout scripture) in the SAME CONTEXTS (i.e. in close proximity), they are referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD; and such is the case also of their use here in THESE TWO CHPTS (1 & 2);

--they are not referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day," but a TIME PERIOD;

--this is true also of what 2 Thess chapter 1 verses 7-10 is speaking to, [that SAME EXACT] TIME PERIOD that will end at a certain point in time (i.e. the TRIB YEARS unfolding upon the earth, that will end with His Second Coming to the earth), aka the "IN THE NIGHT" ASPECT OF "the day of the Lord" TIME PERIOD... which Subject CARRIES OVER INTO Paul's chpt 2 continuing of the SAME TOPIC! He has NOT "switched gears"... he is still covering what he's already covered [ / described] in the FIRST CHPT...

The problem enters when ppl do not recognize he's referring to a TIME PERIOD (esp in vv.7-10), and mistakenly think he is referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day / point-in-time." He's not.





Here are 10 posts (there may have been more) in this thread, where I cover the subject of chpt 1 (esp vv.7-10), A TIME PERIOD, which is the SAME THING Paul carries over into his chpt 2. Consider:


1)--Post #2928 (pg 147) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575193


2)--Post #2969 (pg 149) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575353



[and...]

3)--Post #47 (pg 3), top-/mid-section of that post - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4530073


4)--Post #564 (pg 29) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534570


5)--Post #1756 (pg 88) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4544342


6)--Post #1763 (pg 89) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4544449


7)--Post #2418, continuation of Post #2417 (pg 121) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4554106


8)--Post #2974 (pg 149) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575368


9)--Post #3004 (pg 151) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575549


10)--Post #4450 (pg 223) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4589131

Oy vey! I can hardly understand one post... It frightens me to imagine where I might be running after 10!

 

[JerryInBoston]

It is bible

check out the challenge i made on this board years ago.

"show me one verse pointing to a postrib rapture...one verse."
I have pleaded for years...no takers!!!!!!!!

(there should be 50 the way they declare us wrong.)

I don't posit post-trib rapture, but pre-God's-wrath rapture.

 

[Mem]

Oy vey! I can hardly understand one post... It frightens me to imagine where I might be running after 10!

Ty, but really, I get what you've been saying. TDW. I just don't see it that way, no matter how many previous posts you or anyone might assume I have not already read.

 

[JerryInBoston]

i hear you.

but if you read the thread we lay it out DECISIVELY.

we have put to rest every false position
are you aware of the PRETRIB VERSES?

Yes, I've looked at and heard oral arguments for each position. All have scripture to support their respective views. Many good arguments. I am not dogmatic regarding either position. I do, however, lean pre-wrath rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

I think Revelation 6:1 is just talking about opening the 1st seal.

Sure but since it says he opened "one of the seals" it could have been any of them. Perhaps he didn't open them in chronological order?

 

[ewq1938]

The 144,000 are sealed in order to serve God on earth. They must be evangelizing. If not, then what are they doing?

The church does grow in number during the tribulation period via the 144,000 evangelizing unsaved people all over the world.

The bible does not say they do that. They are sealed and a seal is used to protect the contents of something from being read or altered. I think that means they cannot be deceived but nothing is written that they evangelize anyone plus there won't be anyone to evangelize anyways. Either you are going to reject the antichrist or you will accept him. I don't believe there is a third group.

 

[ewq1938]

Rapture timing, Christ's second coming, pre trib, mid trib, pre wrath, post trib ... Faithful Christians can be too dogmatic and lose sight that there is simply no explicit textual support for either position. All sides cobble together passages that fit their timing position, but if it was explicitly stated, there would be but one position.

There are two passages that aren't "cobbled" together, that are easy to understand and contextual and both support post-trib. There is zero evidence for pre and mid tribulation.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Let's back up slightly to establish context:



Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.


It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't posit post-trib rapture, but pre-God's-wrath rapture.

Post-trib and pre-God's wrath are the same exact things.

 

[JerryInBoston]

The bible does not say they do that. They are sealed and a seal is used to protect the contents of something from being read or altered. I think that means they cannot be deceived but nothing is written that they evangelize anyone plus there won't be anyone to evangelize anyways. Either you are going to reject the antichrist or you will accept him. I don't believe there is a third group.

You're half right: the Bible doesn't say the 144,000 evangelize the world, and it is silent on specifically what they will be doing. You're speculating when you say "I think..." But I am, too, when I believe they are evangelizing the lost in the world, perhaps also warning people not to take the mark or worship the beast.

Either way, I believe there will be souls saved throughout the tribulation until God pours out His wrath.

 

[JerryInBoston]

There are two passages that aren't "cobbled" together, that are easy to understand and contextual and both support post-trib. There is zero evidence for pre and mid tribulation.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Let's back up slightly to establish context:



Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.


It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

I was once in the post-trib rapture camp, but I don't see anywhere in scripture where saints go through God's wrath. We are scripturally exempt from God's wrath.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Post-trib and pre-God's wrath are the same exact things.

No, post trib rapture is not pre-wrath. Pre wrath rapture occurs sometime after the abomination of desolation of the Temple and before the 70th week of Daniel ends.

 

[Mem]

The reign of the antichrist is the tribulation of the saints, so those terms and periods of time are equivalent. His reign ends at Christ's return, to end (at the end of) his reign (by exacting His wrath) , i.e. after the tribulation.

 

[Mem]

The antichrist can no longer reign once he is revealed, i.e., how can he any longer deceive once his deception is entirely exposed?

 

[Mem]

let alone after he is destroyed (by Christ's Arrival).

 

[ewq1938]

No, post trib rapture is not pre-wrath.

Yes it is. The 7th trump ends the Great Tribulation and that's when the rapture happens which is before the wrath of God happens so post-trib and pre-wrath are the same exact timeframe.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Yes it is. The 7th trump ends the Great Tribulation and that's when the rapture happens which is before the wrath of God happens so post-trib and pre-wrath are the same exact timeframe.

Not according to proponents of pre-wrath rapture, such as Van Kamen, Rosenthal, Kurschner, Cooper, and others.

 

[Mem]

You know that scene where the damsel in distress, after seeing him arrive, runs to the hero who, after securing her in his arms, starts raining bullets into the villain(s)?!

 

[Mem]

In His bosom!

 

[ewq1938]

Not according to proponents of pre-wrath rapture, such as Van Kamen, Rosenthal, Kurschner, Cooper, and others.

That's because they errantly think the Great Tribulation is God's wrath when scripture says it is Satan's wrath but God's wrath starts at the 7th trump, Revelation 11.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come , and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.