Unconditional love and the church's approach to homosexuality

[kaylagrl]

Excellent point. The internet, here, is another great way to offer invitations and solutions to the ones gone astray.

I have spoken to homosexuals who feel unworthy of church attendance. I have assured them that any church degrading them is not a church they should be attending. However, do not ever expect to find a church congregation who are committed to keeping God's word who will tolerate sinfulness...including homosexuality.

Thank you for engaging me in this question!! I appreciate it. Ok, I'm going to tell you a quick story to compare and show what I mean.

A young couple has just moved beside my parents. Nice couple. My mother informed me the other day that they are not married, but that they are Christian. A former pastor friend is their pastor now. Now I can't judge him, I don't know what he may have told them about their situation. But they are living together and taking part fully in church. Now, here's the kicker, her father is a pastor.

Now, is this sin, correct? If yes, then do we accept it? Do you see what I mean? It seems there are things we the church are tolerating and other things that we don't. I'm just saying if Jesus was walking the streets today how would He reach out to the gay community? How would He show love?

 

[kaylagrl]

I know where you stand Kayla, it's with Christ. And to be honest you're the most Christian person I've seen in this thread.

Neither you or I have said the Bible approves of homosexuality. Christ is all about love the ultimate symbol of his love for us was allowing himself, remember, he ALLOWED himself to be nailed to the cross on that hill at Calvary. He died for EVERYONE'S sins. Not some pick and mix selection like many of you are suggesting.

Remember, God forgives all sins and nobody is beyond redemption if they ask for it.

Thank you brother Mark. I have felt conviction lately, the older I get, about how I reach out to gay people. We have had some ideas together, thank you for sharing with me. I admit I have struggles, and I need God's mercy to help me through. Sometimes I fail, sometimes I don't, but I deal with temptations and sin like anyone else. You are right, no one is beyond God's redemption. We as Christians are suppose to be spreading that good news. I appreciate you, your attitude in spite of how some here have spoken to you. I hope you won't let anyone turn you away from seeking God. May you be blessed my friend.

 

[kaylagrl]

With that background(?) the owner of stupidity is apparent.
enough said.

Humm we were so close... I thought we had a moment of understanding here. You wanna shake hands and move on? How do we reach out to the gay community in love, as Christ would, without compromise? I'm willing to move on, you?

 

[CS1]

I'm going to answer as politely as I can, considering your answers to me.

1. James 5 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another

2. I didn't say anything about comforting, I asked if anyone had reached out to @ Mark and offer to pray with him.

3. You don't run anything here or have a right to tell anyone what to do. You have made nasty comments, tried to push blame and have twisted Scriptures, perhaps you should "stop".

Yes, I have. he was not receptive and defensive. In fact my last three responses he would not even acknowledge.

I even went out to tell him of my own personal battle with perversion and offered and how I overcame through Christ. He did not even speak to it.

 

[kaylagrl]

Yes, I have. he was not receptive and defensive. In fact my last three responses he would not even acknowledge.

I even went out to tell him of my own personal battle with perversion and offered and how I overcame through Christ. He did not even speak to it.

Of course I couldn't answer for him. Thank you for not flipping the question against me but answering honestly. I hope you and he can come to a better understanding. I've gotten use to your directness after all this time and appreciate your straightforwardness and zeal for the truth. You didn't pass the buck, you reached out. Not all personalities get on well.

 

[Jocund]

1. James 5 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another

Matthew 6 says to pray in private.

2. I didn't say anything about comforting, I asked if anyone had reached out to @ Mark

Everyone that participates in this conversation has reached out to everyone else in the conversation.

3. You don't run anything here or have a right to tell anyone what to do.

I have instructed you to drop the personal attacks. Your response here is to challenge that. You speak contrary to scripture.

"Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator." - Colossians 3:5-10 ESV

"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." - Ephesians 4:29 KJV

You have made nasty comments

And here you bear false witness. Demonstrate your case. Cite the post or retract your statement.

, tried to push blame

Another false statement. Cite the post or retract your statement.

and have twisted Scriptures,

You may disagree with an exegesis, but you have historically gone beyond by disagreeing with scripture when presented as-is.

perhaps you should "stop".

If you disagree with scripture I disagree with you.

 

[Jocund]

I know where you stand Kayla, it's with Christ. And to be honest you're the most Christian person I've seen in this thread.

Neither you or I have said the Bible approves of homosexuality. Christ is all about love the ultimate symbol of his love for us was allowing himself, remember, he ALLOWED himself to be nailed to the cross on that hill at Calvary. He died for EVERYONE'S sins. Not some pick and mix selection like many of you are suggesting.

Remember, God forgives all sins and nobody is beyond redemption if they ask for it.

If someone is living a life of sin, would you help them? How would you proceed to help them? Do some need tough love? Do some need gentle love? Do we let their sinful lives be the ruin of them?

.

If they are brethren that struggle:

"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself." - Galatians 6:1-3 KJV

If they are unrepentant and unwilling to change:

"Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us." - 2 Thessalonians 3:1-6 KJV

"Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked: For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out." - Proverbs 24:19-20 KJV

How God will judge us is one thing, but as a community is there a clear answer for how to reach out? Not necessarily. It's a complicated subject. If reaching out would lead someone to a sinful life due to temptation, it is likely better for them not to reach out. A person that had problems with drug use should be mindful when considering if they should reach out to current drug users.

 

[kaylagrl]

Matthew 6 says to pray in private.



Everyone that participates in this conversation has reached out to everyone else in the conversation.



I have instructed you to drop the personal attacks. Your response here is to challenge that. You speak contrary to scripture.

"Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator." - Colossians 3:5-10 ESV

"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." - Ephesians 4:29 KJV



And here you bear false witness. Demonstrate your case. Cite the post or retract your statement.



Another false statement. Cite the post or retract your statement.



You may disagree with an exegesis, but you have historically gone beyond by disagreeing with scripture when presented as-is.



If you disagree with scripture I disagree with you.

I don't disagree with Scripture, I disagree with your twisting and mis-using Scripture. End of.

 

[kaylagrl]

How God will judge us is one thing, but as a community is there a clear answer for how to reach out? Not necessarily. It's a complicated subject. If reaching out would lead someone to a sinful life due to temptation, it is likely better for them not to reach out. A person that had problems with drug use should be mindful when considering if they should reach out to current drug users.

The subject at hand is how to reach out to the gay, or any other unchurched community. How to reach out to new Christians, that might still struggle and not be on the road as long us we utterly perfectly sinless older saints. And not it's not complicated, people make it complicated. I've seen all kinds of people, with all sorts of struggles that needed to hear the Good News that Jesus Saves in my travels. And it was that simple. Sharing that God loved them, and the truth of the Word. Not one of us is sinless, we all understand temptation and the struggle with sin until we mature in Christ. I'm saying we need to have some empathy and learn to reach outside the church walls.

 

[Jocund]

I don't disagree with Scripture, I disagree with your twisting and mis-using Scripture. End of.

Cite the posts or retract your statement.

 

[kaylagrl]

[QUOTE="Mark47Oz, post: 4590379, member: 308059"

Remember, God forgives all sins and nobody is beyond redemption if they ask for it.[/QUOTE]

I love this song, it's one of those real songs. Someone went through some struggles to write a song like this. It's called Chain Breaker. I cry every time I listen to it.


If you've been walking the same old road for miles and miles
If you've been hearing the same old voice tell the same old lies
If you're trying to fill the same old holes inside
There's a better life
There's a better life

If you've got pain
He's a pain taker
If you feel lost
He's a way maker
If you need freedom or saving
He's a prison-shaking Savior
If you've got chains
He's a chain breaker


We've all search for the light of day in the dead of night
We've all found ourselves worn out from the same old fight
We've all run to things we know just ain't right
And there's a better life
There's a better life

 

[kaylagrl]

Cite the posts or retract your statement.

I already did, when you posted them. No one died and made you God, you don't get to tell anyone what to do here. Do us both a favor, block me.

 

[Jocund]

I already did, when you posted them.

Citation means to reference. You have not done this.

 

[kaylagrl]

Citation means to reference. You have not done this.

We're done, nothing good can come from us speaking together. Block or don't, nothing to say further.

 

[Mark47Oz]

First of all, I want everyone to know that I forgive them. I always knew that standing up and waving my hand in such a contentious subject was going to draw a lot of fire.

I am more than prepared to share and educate if people are prepared to put the bible down and stop smacking me over the head with it for a moment. Sexuality is a taboo subject at the best of times and homosexuality is not only forbidden biblically, it is also completely misunderstood. Believe me, Atheists can be just as hostile toward us. And that is sad truth number one. We are universally despised by all.

Truth number two comes in the form of this testimony

Becket Cook is an interesting case. He is highly regarded and considered to be redeemed and the poster boy for Christian victory over homosexuality by some. However listen, just listen to him admit that he is still attracted to men. Yes he's chosen to become chaste and he's given himself to Christ. But his basic sexuality and his attraction to men remains. He just spends his life being guilty for it now.

And I have read and heard the same story over and over and over. People who claim they are no longer gay, but then admit they are still attracted to the same sex. I begged God for years to take my own sexuality away. But just like Becket Cook and every other testimony I've read, God doesn't do that for us and every singlr person carries the heaviest burden of guilt over their attraction.

So why are we put on this earth if we have no hope? Is God that cruel that he allows us to become something we don't want to be, abandons during this life and then casts us into the lake of fire with disgust at the end of it?

 

[Jocund]

First of all, I want everyone to know that I forgive them. I always knew that standing up and waving my hand in such a contentious subject was going to draw a lot of fire.

I am more than prepared to share and educate if people are prepared to put the bible down and stop smacking me over the head with it for a moment. Sexuality is a taboo subject at the best of times and homosexuality is not only forbidden biblically, it is also completely misunderstood. Believe me, Atheists can be just as hostile toward us. And that is sad truth number one. We are universally despised by all.

Truth number two comes in the form of this testimony


Becket Cook is an interesting case. He is highly regarded and considered to be redeemed and the poster boy for Christian victory over homosexuality by some. However listen, just listen to him admit that he is still attracted to men. Yes he's chosen to become chaste and he's given himself to Christ. But his basic sexuality and his attraction to men remains. He just spends his life being guilty for it now.

And I have read and heard the same story over and over and over. People who claim they are no longer gay, but then admit they are still attracted to the same sex. I begged God for years to take my own sexuality away. But just like Becket Cook and every other testimony I've read, God doesn't do that for us and every singlr person carries the heaviest burden of guilt over their attraction.

So why are we put on this earth if we have no hope? Is God that cruel that he allows us to become something we don't want to be, abandons during this life and then casts us into the lake of fire with disgust at the end of it?

(I haven't had a chance to watch that video yet, but will check the content at some point.)

If I'm not mistaken, it is the physical act that is forbidden in scripture. Temptation is sinful (sin is a disconnect from God's good ways) when it is not repented of or countered (e.g. Jesus talking about even thinking of commiting adultery). "Homosexuality" sometimes has a broad meaning with many implied contexts. There are two basic elements to the subject: 1) temptation and 2) fulfilment of tempation.

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." - James 1:14–15 KJV

Everyone has temptation to do evil things. Scripture tells us to fight our temptations and by doing so this puts us in a better state. Scripture warns us against comfortably coexisting with these temptations (being "double minded"). Thought leads to actions, be mindful of what you think.

To call oneself a "gay Christian" would be like comfortably calling oneself an "adultering Christian" or a "drunkard Christian". There is a danger that by embracing the title one is normalizing the behaviour (or giving the perception that the behaviour is being normalized). It isn't entirely clear what you mean by calling yourself "gay" and Christian at the same time. If you are expressing that you are tempted by fornication with other men but resist and repent of that temptation, that is a good path within the realm of scripture. If you are expressing that you are tempted by fornication with other men but embrace that temptation as part of who you are, that is double-mindedness: you can't embrace sin and God (can't eat at the Lord's table and the table of demons). If you are expressing that you are tempted, embrace that temptation, and commit acts within that temptation, that is a bad state scripturally.

"Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded." - James 4:8 NIV

Attraction is nothing so long as one actively combats that inner temptation (much like your Becket Cook example if that is what he has done). But if you are combating that temptation (and not partaking) it would be strange to call oneself a "gay" as opposed to "tempted by gay sin". We should shed evil appearances wherever we can. I haven't seen anything in your testimony that necessarily says you partake of the acts, nor that you comfortably live with the temptation. If that is so, that is good and no cause to think that leads to hellfire in the Lake of Fire. Scripture recognizes that some of us will have strongly pulling temptations (and perhaps intentionally so as a test).

 

[TMS]

You will get power from Jesus to overcome all. Give it to Him, talk to Him, and it may take time but persevere.

Believe and know that it is Gods will.

 

[Mark47Oz]

(I haven't had a chance to watch that video yet, but will check the content at some point.)

If I'm not mistaken, it is the physical act that is forbidden in scripture. Temptation is sinful (sin is a disconnect from God's good ways) when it is not repented of or countered (e.g. Jesus talking about even thinking of commiting adultery). "Homosexuality" sometimes has a broad meaning with many implied contexts. There are two basic elements to the subject: 1) temptation and 2) fulfilment of tempation.

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." - James 1:14–15 KJV

Everyone has temptation to do evil things. Scripture tells us to fight our temptations and by doing so this puts us in a better state. Scripture warns us against comfortably coexisting with these temptations (being "double minded"). Thought leads to actions, be mindful of what you think.

To call oneself a "gay Christian" would be like comfortably calling oneself an "adultering Christian" or a "drunkard Christian". There is a danger that by embracing the title one is normalizing the behaviour (or giving the perception that the behaviour is being normalized). It isn't entirely clear what you mean by calling yourself "gay" and Christian at the same time. If you are expressing that you are tempted by fornication with other men but resist and repent of that temptation, that is a good path within the realm of scripture. If you are expressing that you are tempted by fornication with other men but embrace that temptation as part of who you are, that is double-mindedness: you can't embrace sin and God (can't eat at the Lord's table and the table of demons). If you are expressing that you are tempted, embrace that temptation, and commit acts within that temptation, that is a bad state scripturally.

"Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded." - James 4:8 NIV

Attraction is nothing so long as one actively combats that inner temptation (much like your Becket Cook example if that is what he has done). But if you are combating that temptation (and not partaking) it would be strange to call oneself a "gay" as opposed to "tempted by gay sin". We should shed evil appearances wherever we can. I haven't seen anything in your testimony that necessarily says you partake of the acts, nor that you comfortably live with the temptation. If that is so, that is good and no cause to think that leads to hellfire in the Lake of Fire. Scripture recognizes that some of us will have strongly pulling temptations (and perhaps intentionally so as a test).

I can go along with what you're saying, but you need you understand this.

Sin starts from a conscious decision normally. And yes, of course we make a conscious decision if we become sexually active, but the decision to who we are attracted to is not something we get a say in. In fact, many people who are gay are shocked and abhorred at first when they discover they've got the 'affliction' themselves. I was myself, to the point of suicide. Which again is not that uncommon among us. (Yes, I attempted suicide by overdose and died when I was 16. I had a near death experience and got frightened and came back)

This is deeper than temptation. It's not like drug it alcohol addiction where we make a bad decision that leads us down a dark path. Many of us literally grow up only knowing this way.

A great number of us, including myself, have never ever felt sexual attraction to the opposite sex. Yep, in 47 years of life I've never been attracted to a single woman. I love females dearly and often become very close to them emotionally but there is never even the slightest hint of romantic spark. In fact women are dearly loved by all gay men. We see them as the most fabulous of creatures who are intelligent, caring and full of grace and class.

 

[Grandpa]

First of all, I want everyone to know that I forgive them. I always knew that standing up and waving my hand in such a contentious subject was going to draw a lot of fire.

I am more than prepared to share and educate if people are prepared to put the bible down and stop smacking me over the head with it for a moment. Sexuality is a taboo subject at the best of times and homosexuality is not only forbidden biblically, it is also completely misunderstood. Believe me, Atheists can be just as hostile toward us. And that is sad truth number one. We are universally despised by all.

Truth number two comes in the form of this testimony

Becket Cook is an interesting case. He is highly regarded and considered to be redeemed and the poster boy for Christian victory over homosexuality by some. However listen, just listen to him admit that he is still attracted to men. Yes he's chosen to become chaste and he's given himself to Christ. But his basic sexuality and his attraction to men remains. He just spends his life being guilty for it now.

And I have read and heard the same story over and over and over. People who claim they are no longer gay, but then admit they are still attracted to the same sex. I begged God for years to take my own sexuality away. But just like Becket Cook and every other testimony I've read, God doesn't do that for us and every singlr person carries the heaviest burden of guilt over their attraction.

So why are we put on this earth if we have no hope? Is God that cruel that he allows us to become something we don't want to be, abandons during this life and then casts us into the lake of fire with disgust at the end of it?

As long as you live this life the lust of the flesh remains.

Being in Christ and Saved means we have hope to overcome this sin.

Being Saved doesn't mean you are sinless. It doesn't mean you will stop wanting your favorite sins.

What it does mean is that they become less attractive to you and you wont act on your impulses when you know it is wrong.

 

[Sipsey]

Can someone explain how reaching out to someone who is struggling with sins of a sexual nature, any different than reaching out to a bully, a habitual liar, thief, career criminal, professional hitman, or gossiper?