50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Runningman]

Precious friend, isn't it amazing The Meat of end-times eschatology can be
RE-Classified as milk, And Then Be understood easily in a FEW verses, huh?
Not too obvious in a forum with OVER 4,000 posts, eh?

I surely wasted my time "studying" for 18 months, 10's of Dozens of Scriptures,
Only ONE needing an interpretation, and on top of that, still a Dozen "post-trib"
questions, still Unanswered to date! And before that was knowing about
Bible "study Rules!" {oops, Already Included in (2b) in my} Outline:

Great GRACE Departure! {aka The Rapture!}

Grace And Peace To ALL! This Study's "Outline!":
"Do ALL things Decently And In ORDER!!" (1_Corinthians 14 : 40 KJB!)

(1A) PEACE With God! "Receiving" The Holy Spirit For "understanding"?
(1B) 1A "E - X - P - A - N - D - E - D" FOR "Clarification"?

(2a) Which BIBLE: KJB! or, Any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) KJB And God's Excellent "study" Rules!?

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...
(3b) THREE "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's TIMELINES?

(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) GREAT Tribulation? or, *tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure!?*

(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's HEAVENLY UPlook For HIS Body!?

(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for WHOM! or, "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"

(10) "Day Of CHRIST!" Rightly Divided from {RDf}: "The Day Of The LORD"?

(11) CONFIDENCE in death/resurrection!, OR, in living/glorification!!?

(12) CHRIST Will RETURN "Without Warning!"?

(13) The TWO "Trumps" Of God!, In HIS "Age Of GRACE!!"?

(14) Meeting HIM "In The Air!" to Heaven!! vs
U-turn (theology???) Back To earth?

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?

(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?

Conclusion!:
(17) Distinctions Between The "Mystery" Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure!
{RDf} The "Prophesied" Second Coming?
{RDf = "Rightly Divided from" (2 Timothy 2 : 15 KJB!)}

{recently added}:
(18) Addendum: ruling ETERNAL in the Heavens!
------------------------------------------
Precious friend, what do you think? Understanding Meat in a FEW verses,
or discussion in another 4000 posts? Of course, I could be mistaken; but
that is my OWN "accountability" to CHRIST, The Righteous JUDGE! Correct?

Be Blessed!
PS. I am by no means a "prophecy Expert" seeing as how they have
Many Disagreements amongst themselves, probably because of:

God’s Rule: “Leave the doctrine In The Context Where God PLACED it.”
Do NOT Remove it, and put it where it DOES NOT belong!! Amen?

When I first started reading the Bible, end times eschatology wasn't even a thought. When I finally saw it, it was clear the plain reading of text clearly demonstrates post-trib rapture and yes it can be found in just a few verses.

My point stands... If there was a verse that just says Jesus returns before the tribulation to rapture the church you'd have a golden ticket and this wouldn't even be a debate.

It can be proven that Jesus returns after the tribulation to perform the first resurrection and rapture. What isn't clear about this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

And 1Th 4:16 says the dead are resurrected BEFORE anyone is in the clouds proving they do resurrect in heaven. There is NOTHING about the dead resurrecting in the clouds. Even the raptured saints are made immortal BEFORE being in the clouds. The same is true about the dead being immortal before they arrive at the clouds.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I think the whole context will be helpful.

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So, v.14 says Jesus will bring the dead in Christ with Him.
v.15 says the living believers will not precede the dead believers. It doesn't say the dead believers get their bodies in heaven before they come in the clouds, in the air.
v.16 says clearly that Jesus "will come down FROM heaven", meaning He will LEAVE heaven and come to earth. After coming FROM heaven, the dead in Christ's bodies will rise FIRST.
v.17 says that the living believers are caught up after the dead believers get their new bodies FROM THE GROUND. That's what "rise up" means.

If the dead believers get their new bodies IN heaven before the trip to earth, why would Paul have written "rise up"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have tried to make my charts as user friendly as possible.

I appreciate your attempt, but it doesn't work for me.

That is what the chart is for:

1) an already-assembled collection of Bible verses/passages - the significance of which is present in the patterns-of-comparison (columns and rows, in this case)

2) it keeps me from having to write the same thing over and over and over and...

I have created files that can be copied and pasted for ease and speed.

3) some of my charts are simply too large to post in a thread

The chart you directed me to was too large.

Also, for the most part, my charts are composed entirely of Bible verses - arranged in a meaningful way.

Well, there's the rub. By "meaningful way" you are revealing your bias with the verses. And your take on timing or order.

This is intentional - because, I want people to see the significance-of-truth in the verses themselves - not just simply from some explanation that I write on the page.

I don't need charts to show what verses say.

Your chart is just another way to "explain" what you think the verses mean.

The charts are like opening the Bible to all of the places of scripture relative to the topic at the same time.

I just copy and paste from files of lists of verses to demonstrate what Scripture says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace Revelation 3:10 only applies if you understand 3:9 Do you know who those are that are of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie. Let me know Thewatchman

Of course the context matters for every verse. But v.10 is clear enough.

9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

v.9 is a promise that these unbelievers will be subservient to the glorified believers during the Millennial kingdom, since believers will serve in His kingdom.
v.10 is a promise for faithful believers only. They will miss the hour of trial that will come on the earth.

As to you question, these so-called Jews are genetic Jews but not spiritual Jews. Like the Pharisees of Jesus' day, their father is the devil, as Jesus noted in John 8.

v.10 doesn't need v.9 for understanding.

But explain if I'm wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Don't get stuck in the rut of thinking that Revelation is a simple chronological listing of End Times events. It is not.

It's also not a hodge podge of events that have been thoroughly mixed and all out of order. Most of Revelation is literal, but with figures of speech and descriptions that John could not possibly be technically accurate about.

If you pay close attention to the Two Witnesses verses and the Trumpet Event (1-6 in particular) verses - you should see that they coincide - because, the Two Witnesses actually cause those events to occur - by their prophecy and testimony.

You already said that, and I showed that the trumpet judgments occur as a result of the ANGELS who sound the trumpets.

In fact, the Bible is quite clear about that. I wonder why you keep thinking that the 2 Witnesses cause the specific trumpet judgments. They begin BEFORE the 2 Witnesses appear. It's the LAST of the trumpet judgments that coincides with the final bowl judgments.

This shows that the 2 Witnesses' ministry begins at the end of the first half of the Trib and ends at the end of the second half of the Trib. Compare ch 11 with ch 16.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is not a matter of a delay; rather, it is a matter of things "taking time"...

So, what exactly is taking time between Matt 24:29 and 30?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I used to think that too. But since the Bema is 1,000 yrs before the GWT judgment, only unbelievers will be there, in the "second resurrection" and will be facing the "second death".

What? No believers during the Millennium?

All believers will have been resurrected/raptured when Christ returns at the Second Advent and sets up His Millennial kingdom. So who's left to populate the earth for those 1000 years? All the unbelievers who survived the trib. If the "fourth of the earth" in the 4th horseman's judgment in ch 6 refers to population, and combined with 9:15 saying "a third of mankind will be killed", then at least HAFLF of the earth's population will have been wiped out. Leaving about 3.5 billion people. Quite enough for all the nations to be ruled by Christ in His kingdom.

If mortal believers only enter the Millennium, because all unbelievers are killed (as some here believe) how do you explain the world wide rebellion against the perfect Ruler at the end of the Millennium?

I suggest that the absolute majority of people that live during the Millennium will be saved.

OK, but you must face the reality that the rebellion against Christ will be world wide.

Why? We have more than a clue from Matt 5. Jesus will rule, not by the "letter of the law", but by the "spirit of the law".

iow, murder is motivated by hatred. Those who hate will be held accountable, even before they get to murder someone. So the world of unbelievers will highly resent being held accountable for what they THINK.

But if you have a better explanation of why there will be a world wide rebellion, please share.

 

[Thewatchman]

Of course the context matters for every verse. But v.10 is clear enough.

9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

v.9 is a promise that these unbelievers will be subservient to the glorified believers during the Millennial kingdom, since believers will serve in His kingdom.
v.10 is a promise for faithful believers only. They will miss the hour of trial that will come on the earth.

As to you question, these so-called Jews are genetic Jews but not spiritual Jews. Like the Pharisees of Jesus' day, their father is the devil, as Jesus noted in John 8.

v.10 doesn't need v.9 for understanding.

But explain if I'm wrong.

On

Don't get stuck in the rut of thinking that Revelation is a simple chronological listing of End Times events. It is not.

If you pay close attention to the Two Witnesses verses and the Trumpet Event (1-6 in particular) verses - you should see that they coincide - because, the Two Witnesses actually cause those events to occur - by their prophecy and testimony.

Of course the context matters for every verse. But v.10 is clear enough.

9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

v.9 is a promise that these unbelievers will be subservient to the glorified believers during the Millennial kingdom, since believers will serve in His kingdom.
v.10 is a promise for faithful believers only. They will miss the hour of trial that will come on the earth.

As to you question, these so-called Jews are genetic Jews but not spiritual Jews. Like the Pharisees of Jesus' day, their father is the devil, as Jesus noted in John 8.

v.10 doesn't need v.9 for understanding.

But explain if I'm wrong.

FreeGrace2 are you trying to make the case that Jesus is going to somehow slip in and rapture away christians before the 7th trump to save them from the time that Satan"the antichrist" is here on earth?

 

[Thewatchman]

FreeGrace2 said:
I used to think that too. But since the Bema is 1,000 yrs before the GWT judgment, only unbelievers will be there, in the "second resurrection" and will be facing the "second death".

All believers will have been resurrected/raptured when Christ returns at the Second Advent and sets up His Millennial kingdom. So who's left to populate the earth for those 1000 years? All the unbelievers who survived the trib. If the "fourth of the earth" in the 4th horseman's judgment in ch 6 refers to population, and combined with 9:15 saying "a third of mankind will be killed", then at least HAFLF of the earth's population will have been wiped out. Leaving about 3.5 billion people. Quite enough for all the nations to be ruled by Christ in His kingdom.

If mortal believers only enter the Millennium, because all unbelievers are killed (as some here believe) how do you explain the world wide rebellion against the perfect Ruler at the end of the Millennium?


OK, but you must face the reality that the rebellion against Christ will be world wide.

Why? We have more than a clue from Matt 5. Jesus will rule, not by the "letter of the law", but by the "spirit of the law".

iow, murder is motivated by hatred. Those who hate will be held accountable, even before they get to murder someone. So the world of unbelievers will highly resent being held accountable for what they THINK.

But if you have a better explanation of why there will be a world wide rebellion, please share.

GaryA and FreeGrace I am not sure I compleatly understand. Do you thank that the millennium kingdom is going to be someplace other than here on earth?

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus was speaking, in his Olivet Discourse, of the opportunity the Jewish Disciples had to escape the coming holocaust at Jerusalem in 70 AD. They did escape, and it was recorded that they fled to Pella. The judgment of the Jews in 70 AD came against Israel for their sins, for their lack of repentance, and for their rejection of the word of their Messiah, Jesus. None of this has a thing to do with the Rapture of the Church.

The escape of the Philadelphian Church from the trial coming upon the whole world did not refer to the Reign of Antichrist. It was something that happened in John's day, to the Philadelphian Church. Again, this had nothing whatsoever to do with the Rapture of the Church.

If all you're trying to do is prove that sometimes Christians are given to escape judgments that come upon the world, you've succeeded. But you've not succeeded in showing that these things have a thing to do with escaping the reign of Antichrist. We are told in the book of Revelation that Christians are called to endure during that time. And we are told that a number of Christians are beheaded for their testimony. Furthermore, we are not to take away from the words of this book. Neither should you try to "take away the Church" from this time period!



The parable merely explains that some Jews will be rejected, while some are accepted by Jesus at his Coming. I don't know why this needs to be proven? I think everybody accepts that!

Like i said, i read the bible.

Watching and being ready is not for the Jews in ad 70.
Neither is the one taken/left.

We can all see the part applicable to the exodus in ad 70.

You completely dodged my post.

No possible way Jesus came in ad 70.

Reread it. Jesus was asked 3 questions.

Postribs approach mat 24 as 1 answer.

Jesus shifted the dialogue and answered all 3 questions.

That is WHY Jesus began the noah analogy in the time frame "BEFORE THE FLOOD."
Before the trib/judgement.

I am so glad i can read it and just accept it.

 

[Absolutely]

On


FreeGrace2 are you trying to make the case that Jesus is going to somehow slip in and rapture away christians before the 7th trump to save them from the time that Satan"the antichrist" is here on earth?

jesus said it.
Five times

Jesus himself was gathered and removed as a child.

Ahem....to be saved from satan.

 

[Absolutely]

The Great Tribulation is great persecution of Christians and that ends when the 7th trump sounds signalling the second coming. At that point no Christian can be further persecuted because they will be made immortal then moved upwards to the clouds to join Christ and his second coming army. This is found in various passages like Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 11 and 19 and some others.

Nowhere in the bible is the second coming on horses depicted as the rapture.

 

[Absolutely]

I have such a advantage in that i do not need context eliminated.

Here is the pretrib rapture vividly depicted.;

Mat 24
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

".....WOULD NOT HAVE LET HIS HOME BROKEN UP..."

I remind anyone reframing the bible to cautiously re read those words in context.

1) before the flood/trib
2) 50% raptured
3) 50% left behind
4) the home used twice.
5) Jesus declared the home broken up ( one taken/left)
6) watch and be ready

I have yet to see anyone acknowledge the context.

....not a one of you


Oh...and the biggie,
...that dialogue is framed PRETRIB....(BEFORE THE FLOOD)

 

[Absolutely]

Not the faithful ones. Remember Rev 3:10?


So what? Everyone dies eventually. All except the minority who are raptured when Jesus comes.

Actually, Rev 6:8 says - I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

If "fourth of the earth" refers to population numbers and not geographical landmass, and combined with Rev 9:15 - And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. then by the end of the Trib, at least HALF of the earth's population will be killed.

That is about 3.5 billion people.

....so it appears.

 

[Thewatchman]

Absolutely
You are absolutely wrong Jesus was not talking about the deciplles to flee Jerusalem before some little tin hatted general was coming. Jesus knew the future He knwe that the only 1 of the deciples would be alive at that time and he was on Patmos. Jsus states clearly in Mark 13 there shall not be one stone left standing. There are stones still standing today. You should be taking a look at history God gives it to us so that we can learn from it. Noaha's flood God caused that to happen to cleans the earth from the sons of God that left their place of habitation because they saw that the daughters of Adam were fair. You find this in the 6th chapter of Genesis and the book of Jude. The sons of God (angels). There was no 50% of the people raptured away before the flood. Genesis 6:19 And of all living things of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring upon the ark, to keep them alive with thee, they shall be male and female. Lets use a little common sence here. Noah and his family were perfect in their geneaolgy; in other words they had not intermarried with other races. they could not have been the only people on the ark. My wife and I had 4 bautiful children we are white all of our children are white. We could have had 40 more children and not one of them would have been anyother race than white. 2 of my children married a person of a different race their children took on the trates of both races. That is what was going on in the days of Noaha angles left their home heaven without being born of woman(of water) and had children they were hybrids, giants, Nephilim. Again I will say that their was not 50% of the people raptured away. That is just false teaching.

 

[Thewatchman]

Absolutely, You need to know that the seals do not come in chronological order as do the trumps and the vials. The seals come in order of importance. Why? lets turn to Revelation 9 where we see the 5 month period of the locusts. You should know that locusts will eat anything green till it is gone that is in there path. Here God commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men(all people) which have not the seal of God in(inside, in your brain) their foreheads. Just what is this seal. yes it is 666 the number of Satan He comes at the 6th seal, the 6th trump, and the 6 vile. Without that seal they have the power to hurt but not kill you for 5 months. We could go on and on but I thank that is enough to try and take in for know.
Thewatchman

 

[Absolutely]

I'm saying that "His Second Coming to the earth" point in time is TOO LATE for anyone to "come to faith" (as some imagine will happen, say, with Israel/the Jews).

I'm saying that the "THEY knew not until the flood came" was NOT NOAH (*he* knew because he believed God and had prepared, and had entered the ark when God had said for him to enter it)... the ones who are the "THEY knew not until" was the ones BEING JUDGED (taken away) in the flood judgment (and it is NOT that they hadn't heard anything about it, beforehand, but that they DISREGARDED God's word via Noah, thus were destroyed in the flood judgment)

I'm saying that these texts are illustrating "His Second Coming to the earth" ("and destroyed [G622] them ALL"--referring to ALL those who've not come to faith prior to that point [Rev19--His "RETURN" to the earth]) and not illustrating "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event (which "Enoch" [ONE MAN] illustrates); After "our Rapture" event, not 100% of those left behind are "G622'd" [/destroyed]! Many will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" event.



As I said in another post where you brought up your "watch and be ready" words... I pointed out that these are said in the context of the time period leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (Matt24:42-51 parallel Lk12:35,36,37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom!!!]... THEN the meal [G347; aka the earthly MK age]);

There's so many components I've covered, it's ridiculous... IOW, I'm not using Lk17:27,29 as the "ONLY focus and component" as you suggest I'm doing. Far from it.

""""I'm saying that the "THEY knew not until the flood came" was NOT NOAH (*he* knew because he believed God and had prepared, and had entered the ark when God had said for him to enter it)... the ones who are the "THEY knew not until" was the ones BEING JUDGED (taken away) in the flood judgment (and it is NOT that they hadn't heard anything about it, beforehand, but that they DISREGARDED God's word via Noah, thus were destroyed in the flood judgment""""

Does not fit.
Noah left...OVER A MILE INTO THE CLOUDS.
The wicked STAYED.

YOU HAVE IT EXACTLY BACKWARDS.

Noah was in the ark.( a type of heaven.
Noah entered BEFORE THE FLOOD.
DOOR WAS SHUT BEFORE THE FLOOD.

Your model has the same flaw as postribbers.
You are trying to fit the second coming on billions of white horses into Noah LEAVING EARTH PRETRIB.
IN NO WAY does that fit.

Noah
The one taken/left
The house broken up
Watch and be ready.
Then immediately Jesus goes into the virgin parable.

You have to reframe all that.

"destroyed them all" was the entire planet...A JUDGEMENT

A judgement to NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.

 

[randyk]

Like i said, i read the bible.

Watching and being ready is not for the Jews in ad 70.
Neither is the one taken/left.

We both read the Bible. It depends on your interpretation. I believe Christian Jews were called, by Jesus, to watch for this coming event in 70 AD. How do I know this? I know this because Jesus was saying this while the Law was still in effect. That had to be largely for Jewish believers, since the Gentile Church was not yet born.

Was this about 70 AD? I believe so. Why do I know this? I know it because the Olivet Discourse began with Jesus' statement that the temple was going to be demolished--a very, very big deal at the time. It was the end of the Jews' religion under the Law, which had been going since about 1500 BC!

The Romans came twice, once in 66 AD and again in 70 AD. The 2nd time they came they demolished the temple, and took away Jewish captives. They left some Jews to manage the fields for them. None of this has a thing to do with the Rapture of the international Church!

We can all see the part applicable to the exodus in ad 70.

You completely dodged my post.

It's possible I missed your intent. But I dodged nothing!

No possible way Jesus came in ad 70.

It is absolutely possible that Jesus came metaphorically in judgment, though certainly not physically. For example, in the OT God is said to come in judgment when He brought major judgments to either Israel or to their enemies. And in Luke 17, Jesus indicated he is coming in the context of 70 AD with respect to bringing judging against the Jewish People. He also said he would bring judgment when in the book of Revelation he said he was coming to judge those in the 7 churches who wouldn't repent.

Reread it. Jesus was asked 3 questions.

Postribs approach mat 24 as 1 answer.

No, I memorized the chapter many years ago. I didn't miss any of the questions. It's phrased in different ways in all 3 Gospel accounts. The Disciples wanted to know what would happen to Israel if indeed their religion was to be destroyed. They knew Messiah was supposed to come and save Israel--not destroy Israel. And so, they wanted to know how these things fit together and how they fit into a timeline.

Jesus answered by saying it would happen in their generation. Then a long period of tribulation would begin for the Jewish People. Finally, this tribulation would end with Messiah coming back to save those who were faithful and to save the nation itself.

Jesus shifted the dialogue and answered all 3 questions.

I don't think Jesus shifted the dialogue at all. He just answered the questions. He informed the Disciples *when* the destruction of the temple would take place. It would be in their generation. And he began by talking about the preliminary events that would portend this event, the initial "birth pains."

Finally, he explains that at the end of a long terrible period of tribulation for the Jewish People, their salvation would finally come at his coming from the clouds. It is a reference to Daniel 7, where the Son of Man comes with the clouds to save Israel from the Antichrist.

That is WHY Jesus began the noah analogy in the time frame "BEFORE THE FLOOD."
Before the trib/judgement.

The Flood represents death for sin. We are all saved from death for sin *before* that death happens. We can be saved today!

Jesus referenced the Flood as a warning to Israel that they also would be inundated under God's judgment for rejecting the Messiah, who was a kind of "Noah" in their own day. He was warning them to repent, and knew they wouldn't largely do this. Therefore, they would be inundated and destroyed.

This is a comparison to the judgment the Jews knew would come in the last days to destroy their enemies. But Jesus was saying it would encompass the Jews, as well, in his own day.

Certainly, the Flood of Noah represents the last day judgment of the world. But Jesus meant to apply it also to the judgment about to take place in Israel in his own generation. The only ones delivered from this judgment were those disciples who believed Jesus and escaped when they saw the Roman Army, the "Abomination of Desolation."

And yes, they did escape *before* the conflagration. This was not a Pretrib Rapture, but rather, an escape from judgment while these things took place on the earth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 are you trying to make the case that Jesus is going to somehow slip in and rapture away christians before the 7th trump to save them from the time that Satan"the antichrist" is here on earth?

Absolutely not. Jesus resurrects and raptures ALL believers when He ends the Trib at the battle of Armageddon when He returns at the Second Advent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

GaryA and FreeGrace I am not sure I compleatly understand. Do you thank that the millennium kingdom is going to be someplace other than here on earth?

I do not believe that. Christ's millennial kingdom will be on the present earth, after the Trib. The Bible says Jesus "will rule the nations with an iron scepter". Rev 19:15.

The Bible does not mention where the reign will occur, so it must be understood to be on earth, where He comes at the Second Advent. Some things are just so obvious as to not need specific statements.