Unconditional love and the church's approach to homosexuality

[Jocund]

I believe that the way many churches and Christians approach the issue of homosexuality is unbiblical.

Churches market themselves as offering unconditional love.
However, all too often they use a bait and switch tactic whereby they offer unconditional love to tempt people in and yet once 'captured', it is discovered that this love and acceptance is conditional on the newcomer changing in whichever way the church 'elders' dictate they should change.
If the church member doesn't change, they may find that they are not included in ways that they were before.

This is manipulation and spiritual abuse, and is absolutely not the kind of unconditional love offered by Jesus.

Before anybody says that homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible and that I'm "ignoring scripture"...
Prostitution is also forbidden in the Bible, and we all know how Jesus asked people not to throw stones and cast judgement.

You see, Jesus uses love to define scripture, and yet humans use scripture to define love.

Jesus reached out to the marginalised, and yet we reach out to condemn.
Perhaps it's in our fallen nature to want to play God?

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." - 1 Corinthians 5 KJV

 

[Jocund]

"Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted." - Galatians 6:1 KJV

 

[Evmur]

Please explain what God's love is conditional upon.

I currently reading around the verse you provided.

Did Jesus address everyone as "lovey dovey?" or if they were vipers did He call them what they were?

 

[Jocund]

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." - 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 KJV

 

[oyster67]

I believe that the way many churches and Christians approach the issue of homosexuality is unbiblical.

Churches market themselves as offering unconditional love.
However, all too often they use a bait and switch tactic whereby they offer unconditional love to tempt people in and yet once 'captured', it is discovered that this love and acceptance is conditional on the newcomer changing in whichever way the church 'elders' dictate they should change.
If the church member doesn't change, they may find that they are not included in ways that they were before.

This is manipulation and spiritual abuse, and is absolutely not the kind of unconditional love offered by Jesus.

Before anybody says that homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible and that I'm "ignoring scripture"...
Prostitution is also forbidden in the Bible, and we all know how Jesus asked people not to throw stones and cast judgement.

You see, Jesus uses love to define scripture, and yet humans use scripture to define love.

Jesus reached out to the marginalised, and yet we reach out to condemn.
Perhaps it's in our fallen nature to want to play God?

Lastly, the reason I'm sticking up for homosexuals and using them as an example here is not because I'm gay myself, just as the reason why I'm against racism is not because I am black.

Amen. We can hate the sin, but still love the sinner. We are to love, lead, and teach by being a good example. We were all rescued from sin. We have very short memories sometimes.

 

[oyster67]

we may love all men but we must tell them the truth

Yes. If we love them then we will tell them. We will warn them just like a good parent warns a child about fire.

Jude
1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[peldom10]

I believe that the way many churches and Christians approach the issue of homosexuality is unbiblical.

Churches market themselves as offering unconditional love.
However, all too often they use a bait and switch tactic whereby they offer unconditional love to tempt people in and yet once 'captured', it is discovered that this love and acceptance is conditional on the newcomer changing in whichever way the church 'elders' dictate they should change.
If the church member doesn't change, they may find that they are not included in ways that they were before.

This is manipulation and spiritual abuse, and is absolutely not the kind of unconditional love offered by Jesus.

Before anybody says that homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible and that I'm "ignoring scripture"...
Prostitution is also forbidden in the Bible, and we all know how Jesus asked people not to throw stones and cast judgement.

You see, Jesus uses love to define scripture, and yet humans use scripture to define love.

Jesus reached out to the marginalised, and yet we reach out to condemn.
Perhaps it's in our fallen nature to want to play God?

Lastly, the reason I'm sticking up for homosexuals and using them as an example here is not because I'm gay myself, just as the reason why I'm against racism is not because I am black.

Forget about your opinion...what does scripture say about homosexuality......you haven't referenced that or addressed it....why?
Don't try to hide the rejection of homosexuality in scriptures behind the cloak of love.

We know God loves all people...but, we also know He hates sin. We also know homosexuality is sin and must be condemned.

 

[Unearthed]

Amen. We can hate the sin, but still love the sinner. We are to love, lead, and teach by being a good example. We were all rescued from sin. We have very short memories sometimes.

Agreed.
It's amazing how some people on here refer to themselves, of us as a group, as "righteous".
We are not righteous. We all live in sin, which is why we need Jesus.

 

[Evmur]

Agreed.
It's amazing how some people on here refer to themselves, of us as a group, as "righteous".
We are not righteous. We all live in sin, which is why we need Jesus.

Our righteousness is the righteousness of God, Christ is our righteousness ... we do not live in sin. we may sin but we do not live in it.

 

[Unearthed]

Our righteousness is the righteousness of God, Christ is our righteousness ... we do not live in sin. we may sin but we do not live in it.

You're conflating "living in sin" with being proud of our sin.

We all sin (Romans 3:23) and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:4).
Left by ourselves, it is impossible to please God or be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10, Ecclesiastes 7:10).

Although sins control over us has been broken by the power of Jesus (Romans 6:6), we still require Jesus.

 

[Mark47Oz]

If this gets me banned from this site, so be it.

I'm one of the people this thread is about. Yep, I'm gay. And here is my 2 cents.

Yes, the Bible condemns us. Old testament and new. We can't escape it. I can't escape it. But to write us off before we die is to cut us off from the grace and salvation Jesus purchased on the cross for EVERYONE.

As a Christian I was cast out by family and shunned by my church. The last time I went to confession any confessed that I was gay (but single at the time - yes I'm Catholic) I was told that I was living in mortal sin and that until I walked away from my sinful life I was separated from the mercy of Christ. I remember attending mass and the pain that I felt was so great. I could feel the separation from Christ deeply in my soul and I was literally a blubbering mess. I left church that night with a feeling of total desolation. Even God had abandoned me and given up on me. Or so I thought.


I lived a life of great sin, cut off the glory of God. I was always unhappy, I couldn't love myself because I reasoned that if God hated me, why should I have any self respect. I just wanted to die and get it over and done with and end up in hell. Might as well bring on the inevitable I guessed.

Eventually I moved to another country because I could not find peace in my own and while I lived riskiky, my plan of dying early wasn't working either. I met a partner and we somehow managed to stick together and at least get some material stability in worldly terms. That was 16 years ago and I just switched off and became comfortably numb. I figured I wasn't quite happy but it wasn't unbearable either, so it was the best compromise I could hope for.

Then a few months ago Jesus Christ himself entered my room. He showed me something so painful it cut me to pieces. He showed me he wanted to be with me. I saw myself in grey tattered robes in front of him and I was felt so unworthy. So unworthy I said 'Lord I cannot be in your presence, how can you come before me when I am so worthless to you' and he just said to me 'My son, are you with me?'

I tried to answer and I couldn't. My lips were bound. Something had me in its grips. I struggled, but I managed to say the first three words I'd said to him in years 'I am here Lord' As those words left my lips, something went screaming, away. It sounded like a possum actually. And I just wept like a baby. Jesus had just re-entered my life.

In the months since, it's been hectic. I'm trying to make sense if what is going on, still cut off from my spiritual home. I'm honestly terrified of rejoining a parish for fear of judgement again. I'm still gay, but God has called me out. I have no idea what he wants from me, but I'm ready to leave my entire life behind and follow him just like the apostles did.

Soooo if you hate gay people or if you think we don't belong in God's plan, consider this very personal testimony.

 

[Unearthed]

If this gets me banned from this site, so be it.

I'm one of the people this thread is about. Yep, I'm gay. And here is my 2 cents.

Yes, the Bible condemns us. Old testament and new. We can't escape it. I can't escape it. But to write us off before we die is to cut us off from the grace and salvation Jesus purchased on the cross for EVERYONE.

As a Christian I was cast out by family and shunned by my church. The last time I went to confession any confessed that I was gay (but single at the time - yes I'm Catholic) I was told that I was living in mortal sin and that until I walked away from my sinful life I was separated from the mercy of Christ. I remember attending mass and the pain that I felt was so great. I could feel the separation from Christ deeply in my soul and I was literally a blubbering mess. I left church that night with a feeling of total desolation. Even God had abandoned me and given up on me. Or so I thought.


I lived a life of great sin, cut off the glory of God. I was always unhappy, I couldn't love myself because I reasoned that if God hated me, why should I have any self respect. I just wanted to die and get it over and done with and end up in hell. Might as well bring on the inevitable I guessed.

Eventually I moved to another country because I could not find peace in my own and while I lived riskiky, my plan of dying early wasn't working either. I met a partner and we somehow managed to stick together and at least get some material stability in worldly terms. That was 16 years ago and I just switched off and became comfortably numb. I figured I wasn't quite happy but it wasn't unbearable either, so it was the best compromise I could hope for.

Then a few months ago Jesus Christ himself entered my room. He showed me something so painful it cut me to pieces. He showed me he wanted to be with me. I saw myself in grey tattered robes in front of him and I was felt so unworthy. So unworthy I said 'Lord I cannot be in your presence, how can you come before me when I am so worthless to you' and he just said to me 'My son, are you with me?'

I tried to answer and I couldn't. My lips were bound. Something had me in its grips. I struggled, but I managed to say the first three words I'd said to him in years 'I am here Lord' As those words left my lips, something went screaming, away. It sounded like a possum actually. And I just wept like a baby. Jesus had just re-entered my life.

In the months since, it's been hectic. I'm trying to make sense if what is going on, still cut off from my spiritual home. I'm honestly terrified of rejoining a parish for fear of judgement again. I'm still gay, but God has called me out. I have no idea what he wants from me, but I'm ready to leave my entire life behind and follow him just like the apostles did.

Soooo if you hate gay people or if you think we don't belong in God's plan, consider this very personal testimony.

Thank you for sharing your personal testimony.
As I said in the original message, Jesus uses love to define scripture whereas humans use scripture to define love.

 

[Mark47Oz]

Thank you for sharing your personal testimony.
As I said in the original message, Jesus uses love to define scripture whereas humans use scripture to define love.

A good Christian will. But half the reason the relationship between the gay community and the church is so adversarial is because the loudest voice we hear on our side is that of judgement and condemnation.
So the less godly of us antagonise back with perverted and extremely disrespectful acts and words to show their rejection and disrespect. It's honestly like a red rag to a bull. Both sides charge in all fired up and mad while the quiet, more respectful voices are lost in the roar of the charge.

I was lost for over 2 decades because instead of being offering the love and guidance I craved and genuinely needed I was written off and sent into exile. In the end Jesus himself had to come and intervene.

 

[Sipsey]

A good Christian will. But half the reason the relationship between the gay community and the church is so adversarial is because the loudest voice we hear on our side is that of judgement and condemnation.
So the less godly of us antagonise back with perverted and extremely disrespectful acts and words to show their rejection and disrespect. It's honestly like a red rag to a bull. Both sides charge in all fired up and mad while the quiet, more respectful voices are lost in the roar of the charge.

I was lost for over 2 decades because instead of being offering the love and guidance I craved and genuinely needed I was written off and sent into exile. In the end Jesus himself had to come and intervene.

That still, quiet, or sometimes louder voice is the one that changes each of us. There are many that hide behind the guise of Religion to justify themselves. Remember, it was the Religious elite that condemned Jesus.

I think God comes to each of us much like He did Elijah;
And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake; 12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.
13 So it was, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him, and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

 

[Evmur]

If this gets me banned from this site, so be it.

I'm one of the people this thread is about. Yep, I'm gay. And here is my 2 cents.

Yes, the Bible condemns us. Old testament and new. We can't escape it. I can't escape it. But to write us off before we die is to cut us off from the grace and salvation Jesus purchased on the cross for EVERYONE.

As a Christian I was cast out by family and shunned by my church. The last time I went to confession any confessed that I was gay (but single at the time - yes I'm Catholic) I was told that I was living in mortal sin and that until I walked away from my sinful life I was separated from the mercy of Christ. I remember attending mass and the pain that I felt was so great. I could feel the separation from Christ deeply in my soul and I was literally a blubbering mess. I left church that night with a feeling of total desolation. Even God had abandoned me and given up on me. Or so I thought.


I lived a life of great sin, cut off the glory of God. I was always unhappy, I couldn't love myself because I reasoned that if God hated me, why should I have any self respect. I just wanted to die and get it over and done with and end up in hell. Might as well bring on the inevitable I guessed.

Eventually I moved to another country because I could not find peace in my own and while I lived riskiky, my plan of dying early wasn't working either. I met a partner and we somehow managed to stick together and at least get some material stability in worldly terms. That was 16 years ago and I just switched off and became comfortably numb. I figured I wasn't quite happy but it wasn't unbearable either, so it was the best compromise I could hope for.

Then a few months ago Jesus Christ himself entered my room. He showed me something so painful it cut me to pieces. He showed me he wanted to be with me. I saw myself in grey tattered robes in front of him and I was felt so unworthy. So unworthy I said 'Lord I cannot be in your presence, how can you come before me when I am so worthless to you' and he just said to me 'My son, are you with me?'

I tried to answer and I couldn't. My lips were bound. Something had me in its grips. I struggled, but I managed to say the first three words I'd said to him in years 'I am here Lord' As those words left my lips, something went screaming, away. It sounded like a possum actually. And I just wept like a baby. Jesus had just re-entered my life.

In the months since, it's been hectic. I'm trying to make sense if what is going on, still cut off from my spiritual home. I'm honestly terrified of rejoining a parish for fear of judgement again. I'm still gay, but God has called me out. I have no idea what he wants from me, but I'm ready to leave my entire life behind and follow him just like the apostles did.

Soooo if you hate gay people or if you think we don't belong in God's plan, consider this very personal testimony.

We do not hate homosexuals why should we?

You hate it yourself. you hate yourself, what you are. You are trying to desperately flee from yourself.

Here is God's message to YOU personally

"Come let us reason together though your sins be as scarlet they shall be as white as wool, as pure as the driven snow"
Jesus is calling you, you don't have to go to church to find Him, call upon Him where you are. "Jesus I want to be set FREE, I want to be saved, Jesus I want this NEW LIFE which you came to impart, to be born again. I receive You as my Lord."

If you really mean it He will do everything else.

 

[Evmur]

You're conflating "living in sin" with being proud of our sin.

We all sin (Romans 3:23) and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:4).
Left by ourselves, it is impossible to please God or be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10, Ecclesiastes 7:10).

Although sins control over us has been broken by the power of Jesus (Romans 6:6), we still require Jesus.

He bore our sins in His own body on the cross that we might be dead to sin and made alive to righteousness.

 

[CS1]

If this gets me banned from this site, so be it.

I'm one of the people this thread is about. Yep, I'm gay. And here is my 2 cents.

Yes, the Bible condemns us. Old testament and new. We can't escape it. I can't escape it. But to write us off before we die is to cut us off from the grace and salvation Jesus purchased on the cross for EVERYONE.

As a Christian I was cast out by family and shunned by my church. The last time I went to confession any confessed that I was gay (but single at the time - yes I'm Catholic) I was told that I was living in mortal sin and that until I walked away from my sinful life I was separated from the mercy of Christ. I remember attending mass and the pain that I felt was so great. I could feel the separation from Christ deeply in my soul and I was literally a blubbering mess. I left church that night with a feeling of total desolation. Even God had abandoned me and given up on me. Or so I thought.


I lived a life of great sin, cut off the glory of God. I was always unhappy, I couldn't love myself because I reasoned that if God hated me, why should I have any self respect. I just wanted to die and get it over and done with and end up in hell. Might as well bring on the inevitable I guessed.

Eventually I moved to another country because I could not find peace in my own and while I lived riskiky, my plan of dying early wasn't working either. I met a partner and we somehow managed to stick together and at least get some material stability in worldly terms. That was 16 years ago and I just switched off and became comfortably numb. I figured I wasn't quite happy but it wasn't unbearable either, so it was the best compromise I could hope for.

Then a few months ago Jesus Christ himself entered my room. He showed me something so painful it cut me to pieces. He showed me he wanted to be with me. I saw myself in grey tattered robes in front of him and I was felt so unworthy. So unworthy I said 'Lord I cannot be in your presence, how can you come before me when I am so worthless to you' and he just said to me 'My son, are you with me?'

I tried to answer and I couldn't. My lips were bound. Something had me in its grips. I struggled, but I managed to say the first three words I'd said to him in years 'I am here Lord' As those words left my lips, something went screaming, away. It sounded like a possum actually. And I just wept like a baby. Jesus had just re-entered my life.

In the months since, it's been hectic. I'm trying to make sense if what is going on, still cut off from my spiritual home. I'm honestly terrified of rejoining a parish for fear of judgement again. I'm still gay, but God has called me out. I have no idea what he wants from me, but I'm ready to leave my entire life behind and follow him just like the apostles did.

Soooo if you hate gay people or if you think we don't belong in God's plan, consider this very personal testimony.

You have said and presumed much. YOu said " the bible condemns US", No the Bible speaks of the condemnation of all without Christ. John 3:17-19.

You still indemnify with the sin Christ has called out from and he wants to empower you to live free from it. No one hates gay people here, in fact, that is a false narrative. I have seen more hate from the" LGBTQ community " and a lack of tolerance by them.

Those who stormed churches and protest during services will target Christian businesses yet will not go to Muslim ones and do the same thing. Crying victim. All sin brings torment and no peace. Homosexuality is not justified because one was abused or mistreated.


I too was abused as a child and many family members who were gay not because they were born that way but because they were innocent young and stocked by sick twisted family members who caused great trauma to very young children and teens.

Those who say I was abused and now gay think that God used a terrible wicked attack on a child or teenager to show them who they are? The GOD OF the BIBLE doesn't do that! Jesus doesn't DO that!

The Devil does that.

Those who Christians were afraid to tell you the truth because they could not handle the persecution that comes from not agreeing with hostile left and gay activism. Wimps!

Many self-professing Christians have compromised " the love of God" over HIS Holiness.

The numbness you felt was your mind seared and unresponsive to the Calling from the Holy Spirit.

BUT Jesus did not give up on you.

There is no such thing as a "Gay Christian" no more than darkness can mix with light.

The Devil will continue to torment you until you are taken out, which is his goal. BUT Jesus came to you to set you free!

accept it. You do not have to do it alone, The devil wants you to think we hate you but HE is the very one who does and wants you dead. Jesus is the answer, not a church building.

 

[CS1]

A good Christian will. But half the reason the relationship between the gay community and the church is so adversarial is because the loudest voice we hear on our side is that of judgement and condemnation.
So the less godly of us antagonise back with perverted and extremely disrespectful acts and words to show their rejection and disrespect. It's honestly like a red rag to a bull. Both sides charge in all fired up and mad while the quiet, more respectful voices are lost in the roar of the charge.

I was lost for over 2 decades because instead of being offering the love and guidance I craved and genuinely needed I was written off and sent into exile. In the end Jesus himself had to come and intervene.

that too is not true. I remember as a young minister when we were in SF and LA and other places going to hospitals staying with those who were gay dying from AIDS No one was helping them but we were. the "gay Community " today is nothing more than an activist movement mostly of the perverted. They want to be accepted yet those vast many gay men and women I know can't stand the idea of transgender but because of greater numbers in activism, they say nothing. I know very well to do businessmen and women who are in gay relationships and they know I cannot accept it Biblically and they are ok with that.

 

[Unearthed]

Allow me to provide a translation from Christianese to English:

We do not hate homosexuals why should we?

"We don't hate you. We can't hate you; we are taught to love even our enemies"

You hate it yourself. you hate yourself, what you are. You are trying to desperately flee from yourself.

"But yes, I kind of hate you".

Here is God's message to YOU personally

"And here's what you need to do to change".

"Come let us reason together though your sins be as scarlet they shall be as white as wool, as pure as the driven snow"
Jesus is calling you, you don't have to go to church to find Him, call upon Him where you are. "Jesus I want to be set FREE, I want to be saved, Jesus I want this NEW LIFE which you came to impart, to be born again. I receive You as my Lord."

"Ask Jesus to help you change".

If you really mean it He will do everything else.

"If you really want to be part of the Church, you will change for us [although we won't say it's for us, we will say it's for God]".

 

[Unearthed]

Hey, how come everyone has stopped commenting now that a gay person has come among us?
Where is all the "guidance in love"?