Unconditional love and the church's approach to homosexuality

[CS1]

Does anyone think that they have the power to change someone’s behavior simply by being nice to them?

Only God can overcome

 

[Nehemiah6]

That's an interesting question. What do you think is the most effective way of encouraging people to change their behaviour?

When you share the true Gospel, it includes God's command to change behavior. It is called "repentance". It is not you encouraging another to change behavior. It is God commanding a change in attitude, behavior, lifestyle, and direction. A total turnaround.

 

[Unearthed]

When you share the true Gospel, it includes God's command to change behavior. It is called "repentance". It is not you encouraging another to change behavior. It is God commanding a change in attitude, behavior, lifestyle, and direction. A total turnaround.

Yes but that doesn't answer my question (quote below). All you've done is to describe how repentance is related to changing.

That's an interesting question. What do you think is the most effective way of encouraging people to change their behaviour?

 

[CS1]

The Job of the Holy Spirit is to reprove the world of sin Meaning The Conviction of the Holy Spirt on all who have sinned will show them that the sin of homosexuality, drunkness, murder, etc... will have godly sorrow that will open their eyes to what they are doing is wrong and need to be forgiven and repent of it and left it to go or reject it and keep on with the sin.

 

[CS1]

Christ came to call the sinner to repent not the righteous

 

[John146]

For years I was of the same opinion that God struck people dead for sinning in the church.

Lol, I don’t have that opinion. I was just sharing scripture about “unconditional love” theory. However, the Lord expects us to live righteous as best we can. Church discipline is a real thing. We are not to have fellowship with a brother who is a practicing homosexual. They are to be ousted from the local church.

 

[CS1]

For years I was of the same opinion that God struck people dead for sinning in the church. But through living my own life in learning about His grace and learning about what Jesus has done for us I have "repented" and changed my mind about this. Check out the following except from commentary on this subject;

The bizarre deaths of Ananias and Sapphira have been debated for years. Why did they die? Did God kill them? Why did God kill them? Why is this story in the Bible? Am I supposed to learn something from it? What? Will God kill me if I lie?

Questions like these have provided sermon material for countless preachers behind the pulpit “God killed Ananias and Sapphira because they sinned and if you’re not careful he’ll kill you too! So fear God and behave yourself.”

Has there ever been a more damnable lie inflicted on those whom God loves?

I could give you a hundred scriptures to show you that God did not kill Ananias and Sapphira for their sins and to assure you that he won’t kill you for yours, but three should suffice:

(God) doesn’t punish us as our sins deserve. (Psalm 103:10, CEV)

The punishment that brought us peace was on him… (Isa 53:5b)

God is not counting people’s sins against them. (2 Cor 5:19b)

The good news of Jesus is that our sins and the sins of Ananias and Sapphira were condemned on the cross and there is nothing left to condemn.
God was angry with sin, which is why He poured out His wrath at calvary (Rom 8:3).
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Those who accuse God of killing sinners are confused about the cross. God doesn’t kill sinners; he saves sinners. God doesn’t hate sinners; he loves them!

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)
If God killed Ananias and Sapphira then the Bible is wrong and Jesus is not the Lamb of God who carried the sins of the world.
There’s no shortage of sinners in this world. Why would God kill one couple and leave the rest alone?

I’ve heard it said that God killed Ananias and Sapphira to warn and purify the infant church. By making an example out of these hypocrites, the church would be filled with a holy fear and kept safe from liars and cheats.
If so, then God failed spectacularly. Liars, cheats and hypocrites have always been with us, and there were plenty in the New Testament church.

I’ve also heard it said that God set up this killing to establish the authority of his apostles. Never mind that Peter had been commissioned by the Lord and filled with the Holy Spirit. Like a kid going through a gangster initiation he had to kill someone to establish his bona fides.
How absurd! How utterly inconsistent with the message Peter had been commissioned to preach. "

I agree 100% with this interpretation of the subject of Ananias and Sapphira based on my understanding of salvation and what Jesus has done for the believer on the cross from the Bible.

Just some thoughts on this subject of God striking us down when we fail. Jesus was already wounded for our transgressions.....The chastisement of our peace was upon Him and by His stripes we are healed. The price was paid., Check out Isa.53

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Sin products its own reward. And Christian are forgiven and saved but not removed from the reward of sin in this life example:

I have had a long time of drinking in the military service I have liver issues yet I am saved and God has healed me of many things yet I still have issues with my liver. Sin did that not God, God told me in His words do not get drunk with wine to excess I did not listen I have repented yet by body bares the scare of sin as do we all.

 

[brighthouse98]

Brother unearthed, In our church all are welcomed,BUT!!!! To be a member of the Church is quite another matter! Members are to be in order! ( 1 Cor 14:40) For visitors there are no requirments whatsoever. But members are disciples!!! And are required to act as such!( Gal 5:9) and ( Gal 5:16-26!!)

As a member of the body of Christ brother,you are accountable! And we as elders make real sure no leven gets in the body! For sin affects us all! Most churches today have no accountability at all,hence why many have lost there candlestick! The body of Christ is no game, it is not a hobby, rather it now becomes a way of life for us. Those who wish to becomes members,go through much teaching so that they know what is expected,there is no doubt in what is taught.

Some leave after a couple of teaching,that is fine,we understand! We do not shame them,nor make them feel lower then any member! We love,but love is not putting up with sin,Love corrects! ( Proverbs 3:12 and Heb 12:6-13!) Sound tough?? LOL Understand!! The narrow road is tough not just to find,but also to walk in truth! Our church has had many wonderful healing,and even a couple of miracles! from Holy Spirit! The reason??

Because our member who all have faults,none of us are perfect!!! BUT WE CARE!!!!! And the Lord knows our hearts!( 1 Samuel 16:7) And members know God's Word! So that is the way God's order is in his Church who are members. Now many can disagree,but when something works,why would you change it??? lol So blessing to you,and I hope you understand that sometimes,truth can also be a tad bit painful!!

It was for me!! LOL Last point,We stay in God's will,and how one may ask?? ( 1 Thess 5:18!!!!) No matter what we are going through,no matter how we may feel,it has nothing with true belief!!! At least to us. May you consider this in both grace,as well as love from the Body of Christ!

 

[CS1]

Brother unearthed, In our church all are welcomed,BUT!!!! To be a member of the Church is quite another matter! Members are to be in order! ( 1 Cor 14:40) For visitors there are no requirments whatsoever. But members are disciples!!! And are required to act as such!( Gal 5:9) and ( Gal 5:16-26!!)

As a member of the body of Christ brother,you are accountable! And we as elders make real sure no leven gets in the body! For sin affects us all! Most churches today have no accountability at all,hence why many have lost there candlestick! The body of Christ is no game, it is not a hobby, rather it now becomes a way of life for us. Those who wish to becomes members,go through much teaching so that they know what is expected,there is no doubt in what is taught.

Some leave after a couple of teaching,that is fine,we understand! We do not shame them,nor make them feel lower then any member! We love,but love is not putting up with sin,Love corrects! ( Proverbs 3:12 and Heb 12:6-13!) Sound tough?? LOL Understand!! The narrow road is tough not just to find,but also to walk in truth! Our church has had many wonderful healing,and even a couple of miracles! from Holy Spirit! The reason??

Because our member who all have faults,none of us are perfect!!! BUT WE CARE!!!!! And the Lord knows our hearts!( 1 Samuel 16:7) And members know God's Word! So that is the way God's order is in his Church who are members. Now many can disagree,but when something works,why would you change it??? lol So blessing to you,and I hope you understand that sometimes,truth can also be a tad bit painful!!

It was for me!! LOL Last point,We stay in God's will,and how one may ask?? ( 1 Thess 5:18!!!!) No matter what we are going through,no matter how we may feel,it has nothing with true belief!!! At least to us. May you consider this in both grace,as well as love from the Body of Christ!

amen amen

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes but that doesn't answer my question

You just don't want to acknowledge that it answers your question. Indeed you do not even want to deal with the issue of repentance, which cannot be separated from God's love (as well as His righteousness). God is Love, and God COMMANDS repentance.

 

[Sipsey]

That's an interesting question. What do you think is the most effective way of encouraging people to change their behaviour?

We are told to speak the truth in love, and to demonstrate these truths in our daily lives.

 

[Sipsey]

When you share the true Gospel, it includes God's command to change behavior. It is called "repentance". It is not you encouraging another to change behavior. It is God commanding a change in attitude, behavior, lifestyle, and direction. A total turnaround.

I dont think anyone can truly change until God does His work. Repentance is changing our opinion of God, and I believe at that point faith is demonstrated and God goes to work.

 

[Unearthed]

We are told to speak the truth in love, and to demonstrate these truths in our daily lives.

Again, sounds good. Can you please give a practical example of "speaking the truth in love"?

 

[Blade]

I believe that the way many churches and Christians approach the issue of homosexuality is unbiblical.

This is manipulation and spiritual abuse, and is absolutely not the kind of unconditional love offered by Jesus.

Before anybody says that homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible and that I'm "ignoring scripture"...
Prostitution is also forbidden in the Bible, and we all know how Jesus asked people not to throw stones and cast judgement.
.

Hi.. there are over 30 million Churches in the world. Now talking about homosexuality I can't say a few, many, some Churches in my own town. You talk about love yet say "I bet the church was willing to take their money from them though? "

Those people those Churches are children that belong to a God. We can try to talk as if they are just people of the world yet they are not they are His Children. So we treat them like we would like to be treated.

Homosexuality is a sin God hates sin. Just because He does not condemn does not give us the right to walk in sin. For me.. If I am freely walking in sin.. I can not say I love Jesus. Its another thing to be stuck in a sin. We can not sever two masters.

That woman that Jesus didn't condemn? He said "And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.” . He loved her died for her yet told her to go and sin no more. So the same applies to homosexuality.

A young gay man gets kicked out of his home his friend takes him in. One day sitting at the table his friend says "what about Jesus?" The young gay man says "been there done that". The friend says "no.. if you need someone to laugh with I am here. If you need someone to cry with I am here. If you need someone to get mad at I am here. If you fall I will not condemn you". That once young gay man is not gay any more has a family and lots of kids. A girl crying out to GOD to change.. I can still see her crying. Did this for some time.. one day wakes up the desire for the same sex is gone.

A man lives next door to a abortion clinic where to women run it both gay. The kids come over and bring cookies now and then. They have them over to dinner a few times. One day over for dinner both get saved and stop living together. Shall I go on?

Yeshua/Jesus Christ is real. I don't care what this world/man says about homosexuality.. Jesus Christ is real and its something no one has to live with. One day a gay group were going to like protest at this Church. Well not long after they got there they left. Their words "we never felt such love".

So no clue what many Churches you are talking about. God loves this world and died for it. All are welcome in the kingdom of God .. but its His way. His rules and thats believing in Jesus Christ that He came in the flesh. That is repenting of sin. That means turning over a new leaf. Like I said.. I can't say I love Jesus and then not change.. not stop sinning. If I sin I always run to Him repent get up keep going.

What I hear is the conviction of the sweet holy Spirit. We all get a choice.

I pray I didn't offend.

 

[Sipsey]

Again, sounds good. Can you please give a practical example of "speaking the truth in love"?

It begins and ends with Jesus. Who He is, what He offers, what’s He promises, what He did, and what He expects.

That there is more to this life than what we can see, feel, or touch. There is hope in this life and eternity in the person of Jesus The Christ.

It begins with belief, then into faith that He will do what He has promised.

 

[Unearthed]

It begins and ends with Jesus. Who He is, what He offers, what’s He promises, what He did, and what He expects.

That there is more to this life than what we can see, feel, or touch. There is hope in this life and eternity in the person of Jesus The Christ.

It begins with belief, then into faith that He will do what He has promised.

I understand all that, but there seems to be a lot of fluff and not much substance.
I'm asking you for practical examples of "speaking the truth in love" - see post #113.

 

[Sipsey]

I understand all that, but there seems to be a lot of fluff and not much substance.
I'm asking you for practical examples of "speaking the truth in love" - see post #113.

Look, there is no formula, no set of words that universally fit every situation. If the Holy Spirit is not behind your words, they are wasted. You pray before any words are spoken.

When teaching or preaching one prepares, then turns it over to the Spirit.
Prior preparation is the key. Much study bathed in prayer.

 

[brighthouse98]

Almost forgot you last question Unearthed. We have found that the best way to encourage is to live ones life right,we do not judge another outside the church!( Rom 2:1-5) verse 4!! They will watch,and if they see Jesus in another, they will come to you and ask. THEN!!! we Testify!!

 

[Mem]

Amos 3:3 asks, "Can two walk together, except they agreed?"

IOW, how can two walk together on two separate paths and still be walking together?

And so, if I ask someone whether they will walk with me, and they say, "ok, but only as far as the corner, and then I don't care where you go, as long as you let me go my way when we get there...

This characterization of love seems to me somewhat uncertain, and a bit, if only just a bit deviant from an authentic love. So then, I'd think that it'd have to be agreed upon before even starting to the corner with anyone to avoid otherwise going out of the way and wasting one or the other's time... which is precious, even if it's just moment given in someone's life, yours just as precious as mine and mine just as precious as yours... you should love me as much as I love you for love to be any sort of entirely whole, complete love reciprocal. Agreeing before setting out to the corner, or whatever intended destination, would be ideal regarding the subject of loving our enemies also, although it doesn't seem to be the general practice to offer this courtesy.

I'll be going right, if anyone would like to come along

If not, I pray you fare well on your journey

 

[Evmur]

I believe that the way many churches and Christians approach the issue of homosexuality is unbiblical.

Churches market themselves as offering unconditional love.
However, all too often they use a bait and switch tactic whereby they offer unconditional love to tempt people in and yet once 'captured', it is discovered that this love and acceptance is conditional on the newcomer changing in whichever way the church 'elders' dictate they should change.
If the church member doesn't change, they may find that they are not included in ways that they were before.

This is manipulation and spiritual abuse, and is absolutely not the kind of unconditional love offered by Jesus.

Before anybody says that homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible and that I'm "ignoring scripture"...
Prostitution is also forbidden in the Bible, and we all know how Jesus asked people not to throw stones and cast judgement.

You see, Jesus uses love to define scripture, and yet humans use scripture to define love.

Jesus reached out to the marginalised, and yet we reach out to condemn.
Perhaps it's in our fallen nature to want to play God?

Lastly, the reason I'm sticking up for homosexuals and using them as an example here is not because I'm gay myself, just as the reason why I'm against racism is not because I am black.

Homosexuality is not a church issue, it is a social issue. We [the church] are disciples of Christ and follow His commands and that most certainly includes His teaching on marriage.

Our message is not unconditional love

Our message is "the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, repent and believe the good news"

Now we are called upon to unconditionally love all who are accepted by Christ into His kingdom, we may love all men but we must tell them the truth and the truth is they will not be accepted into the kingdom unless they repent.

We do not turn to hate those who will not repent but neither do we accept them into fellowship until we are sure the Lord has accepted them, they are changed, they are born again, they are turned to become disciples of Jesus.