Blind to grace .

[Blain]

Its readily apparent that if you spend any length of time as a believer the most discouragement, despair, fear and doubt comes from .....Yes ,other 'Christians '
The doubt of course is undoubtedly on ' Grace ' and ' free gift ' . This is completely lost of the majority of Christians. I believe they too probably started out with Joy and were then equally brought down in flames with the ' Lord shippers ' , the ' Lords Navy ' ( Water, water every where) and those ' if , but , maybe conditional, probationary teachers .
Its ironic ,in Church on Sunday morning every one is rejoicing ,singing along to those great hymns of blessed assurance , eternal security, gurenteed heaven , joy unspeakable. Only to be followed by a message of doom upon the congregation, that they better be keeping in line otherwise your name will be blotting out " But don't have fear , it definitely won't be me ,the pastor ,but I'm thinking you lot "
Yes , what tragedy that crushes the life out of the believer, shipwrecking his faith, stealing his joy .
What were looking at here is the different degrees at which some teach . I myself only in the last two years realised I was also teaching a type of Lordship salvation ,unwittingly. Thats the tragedy, most believers cannot understand Grace and a 'free gift 'that salvation is today .
Thoughts ?

I like how you put it about how fear and doubt come mostly from other Christians. Those who know the freedom in Christ know the depth of his grace, far to many new believers are terrified because of the doubt and fear of going to hell because of their sin.

Personally if you fear going to hell or losing your salvation that should be an indicator that your heart already is in repentance but to remain in that fear and doubt is not of Christ it's the devil lying to you.
A quick testimony from me if I may, see I struggle daily with self worth I even fear that I have strayed to far and some time ago I was in my room being bombarded by these kind of thoughts it was more intense than anything I ever dealt with so much so the fear and pain of it almost overcame me.

I had to come to a place where I was broken and finally accept the eternal love he has for me as if I could do no wrong in his eyes, when I accepted his grace and accepted that I am clean and spotless in him only then was the fear and the bombarding of the intruding negative thoughts suddenly went away I was free and life came back into me.

My concern is that new believers will encounter those who believe we can lose what was bought not by our own doing but by the blood of Christ, my fear is that such people will reach new believers first and then they will start on a path of working for their salvation always trying to be enough always trying to be perfect.
Sometimes I feel sorry for people who believe this because if they were one of those new believers in life and the enemy used a Christian who teaches this burned it into them then they keep fighting for salvation in vain

 

[ResidentAlien]

Its readily apparent that if you spend any length of time as a believer the most discouragement, despair, fear and doubt comes from .....Yes ,other 'Christians '
The doubt of course is undoubtedly on ' Grace ' and ' free gift ' . This is completely lost of the majority of Christians. I believe they too probably started out with Joy and were then equally brought down in flames with the ' Lord shippers ' , the ' Lords Navy ' ( Water, water every where) and those ' if , but , maybe conditional, probationary teachers .
Its ironic ,in Church on Sunday morning every one is rejoicing ,singing along to those great hymns of blessed assurance , eternal security, gurenteed heaven , joy unspeakable. Only to be followed by a message of doom upon the congregation, that they better be keeping in line otherwise your name will be blotting out " But don't have fear , it definitely won't be me ,the pastor ,but I'm thinking you lot "
Yes , what tragedy that crushes the life out of the believer, shipwrecking his faith, stealing his joy .
What were looking at here is the different degrees at which some teach . I myself only in the last two years realised I was also teaching a type of Lordship salvation ,unwittingly. Thats the tragedy, most believers cannot understand Grace and a 'free gift 'that salvation is today .
Thoughts ?

throughfaith, I've read and reread this post and your others in this thread. Frankly, I totally agree. People don't become Christians or attend church to be browbeaten. They can get plenty of that elsewhere. But one must assume they want the truth; this is definitely something they won't find in the world and probably (hopefully) one of the reasons they became a believer. But all things must be done in love, always in love.

 

[throughfaith]

The point is that the one who believes on Jesus must also make Him Lord. And that is Lordship salvation, which you reject. It is not mere mental assent.

Ok so talk me through this please. A lost person needs to ' make ' Jesus Lord ,before he can be regenerated? Is this your position ? And how does a lost person ' Make ' Jesus Lord ? Isn't Jesus already Lord?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Isn't Jesus already Lord?

Yes Jesus is Lord, but He must be personal Lord of the one who calls upon Him. This is not rocket science. See Romans 10, and other passages. But did you understand what is being said here?

 

[throughfaith]

Yes Jesus is Lord, but He must be personal Lord of the one who calls upon Him. This is not rocket science. See Romans 10, and other passages. But did you understand what is being said here?

" Must be personal Lord " ? There is only one Lord Jesus. 1 cor 15 . 1-4 Covers this ,as it says ' according to the Scriptures. A lost person must believe in the Jesus ' according to the Scriptures ' . Not according to the book of Mormon ect .

 

[infinitekhanol]

Its readily apparent that if you spend any length of time as a believer the most discouragement, despair, fear and doubt comes from .....Yes ,other 'Christians '
The doubt of course is undoubtedly on ' Grace ' and ' free gift ' . This is completely lost of the majority of Christians. I believe they too probably started out with Joy and were then equally brought down in flames with the ' Lord shippers ' , the ' Lords Navy ' ( Water, water every where) and those ' if , but , maybe conditional, probationary teachers .
Its ironic ,in Church on Sunday morning every one is rejoicing ,singing along to those great hymns of blessed assurance , eternal security, gurenteed heaven , joy unspeakable. Only to be followed by a message of doom upon the congregation, that they better be keeping in line otherwise your name will be blotting out " But don't have fear , it definitely won't be me ,the pastor ,but I'm thinking you lot "
Yes , what tragedy that crushes the life out of the believer, shipwrecking his faith, stealing his joy .
What were looking at here is the different degrees at which some teach . I myself only in the last two years realised I was also teaching a type of Lordship salvation ,unwittingly. Thats the tragedy, most believers cannot understand Grace and a 'free gift 'that salvation is today .
Thoughts ?

For me, I do not think I have come across a good Preacher who does not preach faith, love and kindness of God, grace as a free gift, salvation as a free gift, Christ crucified, relationship with God and his Son, etc. (the goodness of God in general)

And repentance. (in view of the widespread corruption going on in churches, likewise the world in general.)

When people who call themselves believers consistently go out of line and live a life of falsehood, repentance and effect of their actions must be preached. Paul preached it. The apostles preached it. It is inevitable and very biblical. It is truth. Even Paul at a point talked about ostracizing the believers who refused to turn from their sinful ways (1cor 5:1 - 13). In some other occasions, we see him upbraiding the believers for their ungodly life while preaching a life of righteousness unto them. (they must also be warned of the severity of God , not just preaching on his goodness . Paul did this perfectly well.)

You see, sometimes, it is not the fault of the preacher, who knows his onions, but the hardened heart of the so called believers who find pleasure in the lust of the flesh.

 

[throughfaith]

For me, I do not think I have come across a good Preacher who does not preach faith, love and kindness of God, grace as a free gift, salvation as a free gift, Christ crucified, relationship with God and his Son, etc. (the goodness of God in general)

And repentance. (in view of the widespread corruption going on in churches, likewise the world in general.)

When people who call themselves believers consistently go out of line and live a life of falsehood, repentance and effect of their actions must be preached. Paul preached it. The apostles preached it. It is inevitable and very biblical. It is truth. Even Paul at a point talked about ostracizing the believers who refused to turn from their sinful ways (1cor 5:1 - 13). In some other occasions, we see him upbraiding the believers for their ungodly life while preaching a life of righteousness unto them. (they must also be warned of the severity of God , not just preaching on his goodness . Paul did this perfectly well.)

You see, sometimes, it is not the fault of the preacher, who knows his onions, but the hardened heart of the so called believers who find pleasure in the lust of the flesh.

Yes there is a heavy focus on ' behaviour ' . Also many preachers are subtle with Lordship salvation. Virtue signalling with sincerity is alluring .

 

[CherieR]

@throughfaith , I don’t view Lordship salvation as being equivalent to working for salvation. Working for salvation involves trying to earn or maintain salvation or get God’s approval by certain good works one does. Lordship salvation can simply be receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior. A desire to please God and do his will I believe is a part of what it means it have love for God. I believe God works in Christians to want to follow him more.

 

[CherieR]

Yes Jesus is Lord, but He must be personal Lord of the one who calls upon Him. This is not rocket science. See Romans 10, and other passages. But did you understand what is being said here?

@Nehemiah6
There is a parable of the 10 minas in Luke 19:12-27. Is this passage helpful in your view for understanding Lordship salvation?

 

[throughfaith]

@throughfaith , I don’t view Lordship salvation as being equivalent to working for salvation. Working for salvation involves trying to earn or maintain salvation or get God’s approval by certain good works one does. Lordship salvation can simply be receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior. A desire to please God and do his will I believe is a part of what it means it have love for God. I believe God works in Christians to want to follow him more.

Lordship salvation can also be described as ' looking to your works ' to see if you are saved . This is the problem with Calvinism.

 

[Nehemiah6]

@Nehemiah6
There is a parable of the 10 minas in Luke 19:12-27. Is this passage helpful in your view for understanding Lordship salvation?

Frankly I see no connect at all.

 

[CherieR]

Frankly I see no connect at all.

The connection I saw was that of them who did not want the man in the parable to be king over them. I think of it like often times those who don’t believe on Jesus also do not want him to be king in their life.

 

[CherieR]

Lordship salvation can also be described as ' looking to your works ' to see if you are saved . This is the problem with Calvinism.

I can see where that can be an issue.

 

[Jackson123]

Salvation by grace not by work, but salvation create lot of work.

Salvation by accepting the Lord, accepting itself is a verb, not noun.
In grammar stand point verb mean the subject doing work

For example: I do accept that job.

Paul call it grace, because we not deserve save. Jesus give grace to die for our sin, but not for every body. Only for whoever believe in Him

Believe is a verb, not noun, why we call it grace, because so simple.

For example

Every body that willing come to my house I will give them $ million.
It is free gift.

It doesn't mean no work at all, you still have to spend gas for your car to come to my house. It is free gift because gas money is to small compare 1million that you will get.

After you accept Jesus than He will direct you to be like Him. Willing to work and sacrifice for other. He sacrifice Himself for us die on the cross. If He in you, sooner or later He make you like Him, sacrifice yourself for other,

Grace but create a lot of work

You may work hard for other because of His love in you.
You may work in McDonald with minimum wage and half of what your earn you give to the needy, out of love. It only possible if we are in Him like branch abide on the tree, than bear fruit.

If no fruit than cut off go to eternal fire, not because salvation by work, but because salvation by faith/abide in Jesus and abide in Jesus will bear fruit. Unless accepting Jesus than die in the next second, the fruit not have time to be seen.

 

[Jackson123]

I will repeat my example what happen to Noah

God inform Noah that He will float the earth

Information itself is a grace, it doesn't mean Noah did not work

He have to believe and working hard to build an arch,

Noah save from float by grace of information, but this grace create thousand hour of work to build an arch.