Do catholics worship God or the pope?

[Jackson123]

Quote
CNN —
Pope Francis has extended indefinitely the power of Catholic priests to forgive abortions, making the announcement in an apostolic letter released Monday.
It continues a special dispensation granted last year for the duration of the Year of Mercy – which finished Sunday – which gave all priests, rather than just bishops and specially designated confessors, the power to absolve the sin of abortion.
While the practical effect of Francis’ announcement remains unclear, it draws attention to the prevailing theme of his papacy: That the doors of the Church must remain open, just as God’s forgiveness and mercy extend to all those who repent from sin.

End quote

Is that mean
1. Priest don't have authority forgive abortion before pope gives?

2. Pope can change the law? Next time he forgive all sin, mean every body can co ebything.

 

[Mark47Oz]

You say some pope are bad, how you believe that bad pope is God ordained as Peter successor?

Protestant may have dirty loundry, that is why my Christian believe in Jesus and the Bible as His word, not on the church.

So... The claim has that the papacy can be traced back to Peter. It can. Bad Popes and all.

Remember the story of Cain and Abel? Both sons of Adam and Eve. Abel was good and Cain was bad. They can both trace their roots directly to Adam as he was their father.

Same thing goes with the Papacy. Some Popes were bad and were definitely Cain and not Abel. But they were all ordained as Pope. Therefore they lineage stands. If you look at the leaders of your own country I'm sure you'll find exactly the same thing - some were good and others bad. But they were all still leaders nonetheless.

 

[posthuman]

As the title says: do catholics worship God or the pope?

Do they allow the pope to come between them and God?

you're gonna have to ask some Catholics, of which there are few if any, here.
and because of the nature of the question, you're going to have to apply some interpretation to their answers

people who reject Catholicism are not your best source of info on that

 

[Athanasius377]

I have. The order of authority for Catholics is: the clergy , traditiion, and lastly, the bible.

Around 300 AD when Constantine took power, he (Constantine) declared himself vicar of Christ ( Christ's representative on earth) and therefore infallible, declared the Church in Rome as the official Church of his empire, and instituted baby baptism so that newborns would be baptized into the Roman Catholic Church and be under his rule.
When Constantine was defeated and no longer in power, the pope at that time still had control over the people and declared himself Christ's vicar on earth with infallibility. Going against Roman Catholic doctrines resulted in condemnation to hell as a heretic, ostracism by the Roman Catholic populous, and excommunication from the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church got so powerful that ruling monarchs employed church leaders such as cardinals, bishops, etc. to help them control the people.
The Medieval Inquisition took place from the 12th century to the 15th century . During that time the Roman Catholic Church wanted to keep the people ignorant and forbade the possessions of Bibles. People caught with bibles were thrown in jail with the heretics , were persecuted and even killed. Estimates of the number killed by the Spanish Inquisition range from 30,000 to millions.
Here is something even most Catholics are unaware of. From 1378 to 1417 was the Great Western Schism. The Italian and French cardinals in Rome elect a French cardinal as Pope. The French Pope decides to move to France and set up the new Catholic headquarters there. The Italian cardinals are furious, condemn and excommunicate the French Pope and all his followers, and elect another Pope but this time Italian. The French Pope condemns and excommunicates the Italian Pope and his following as well.

When did Constantine declare himself the vicar of Christ? Can you point us to a specific document where this occurred? And where did you get these figures for the spainish inquisition? Because those number are extraordinarily inflated even according to the opponents of the papacy. Please cite your sources.

 

[Jackson123]

So... The claim has that the papacy can be traced back to Peter. It can. Bad Popes and all.

Remember the story of Cain and Abel? Both sons of Adam and Eve. Abel was good and Cain was bad. They can both trace their roots directly to Adam as he was their father.

Same thing goes with the Papacy. Some Popes were bad and were definitely Cain and not Abel. But they were all ordained as Pope. Therefore they lineage stands. If you look at the leaders of your own country I'm sure you'll find exactly the same thing - some were good and others bad. But they were all still leaders nonetheless.

I think this analogy is not applicable for pope, or president of my country

This pope you believe ordained by God, not human

President ordained by human.

You may quote a verse that say to Peter God give authority to forgive.

Because Peter real Christian, is bad pope real Christian? Is God ordained bad pope?

 

[Athanasius377]

For instance, the Orthodox (not RCC) church has an extra book, the Gospel of Thomas. (Thomas the doubter)

This is false. No eastern church recognizes the gospel of Thomas as anything but heretical. Can cite a source. I have in my possession a copy of the EO Bible and the gospel of Thomas is absent.

 

[surfer14]

I am not Catholic. But I frequently go to a Catholic church where we do traditional latin mass and I have quite a few Catholic friends and family. Not one of them worship the pope. All of them are disgusted/disappointed/annoyed/horrified to some degree by the liberalism of the pope. They have varying degrees of respect for the position of the pope.

 

[Athanasius377]

Because it was a lie in the first place.

You can't bribe your way into heaven. God is not corrupt, but humans are.

There have been multiple bad Popes through the ages. For a time the papacy followed a sort of blood lineage with nephews of the seated Pope being his successors. There are stories of them having mistresses and even children running around the Vatican during these days.

If you take the tour of the Vatican, you'll pass through apartments where the walls are covered in cloth to hide the artwork and history on the walls of these bad pontiffs.

The RCC has a lot of dirty laundry. It's true. All of it relates to the failure of humans to follow the word of Christ. A good Catholic will be aware of all this but stays because of the beliefs in Christ, not the corruption, which continues to this day.

Actually Jackson is correct. For the most part. The church’s doctrine of indulgences is still active today. It’s not as crass as Tetzel’s pitch but the pope according to RC theology has the power to grant a plenary indulgence to relieve those in purgatory further punishment because of the extra merit (superogation) accrued by Jesus and Mary and the the saints. It’s not a lie. It’s what Rome teaches.

 

[Mark47Oz]

This is false. No eastern church recognizes the gospel of Thomas as anything but heretical. Can cite a source. I have in my possession a copy of the EO Bible and the gospel of Thomas is absent.

The Ethiopian orthodox church in particular. Not all of them, you are quite correct.

I didn't point out that the orthodox church is a group of churches and I apologise.

 

[Mark47Oz]

This is false. No eastern church recognizes the gospel of Thomas as anything but heretical. Can cite a source. I have in my possession a copy of the EO Bible and the gospel of Thomas is absent.

Actually, I retract what I say about the Orthodox church and the gospel of Thomas after doing some research. I was referencing a secular Australian TV documentary that shows the Ethiopian orthodox church and how they believe they have the ark of the covenant. It goes quite in depth with it all and shows all the rock cut churches etc and it wholly insists that they use the Gospel of Thomas and what a curiosity it is.

 

[TheLearner]

Quote

The church's granted indulgences reduce the time Catholics believe they will have to spend in purgatory after they have confessed and been absolved of their sins.

The remissions got a bad name in the Middle Ages because unscrupulous churchmen sold them for large sums of money. But now indulgences are being applied to the 21st century.

End quote

If it is true, why only reduce, not remove at all?

You already answered the question when you pointed out it was a money maker.

 

[TheLearner]

You say some pope are bad, how you believe that bad pope is God ordained as Peter successor?

Protestant may have dirty laundry, that is why my Christian believe in Jesus and the Bible as His word, not on the church.

I think those were identified as anti-popes.

 

[TheLearner]

Quote
CNN —
Pope Francis has extended indefinitely the power of Catholic priests to forgive abortions, making the announcement in an apostolic letter released Monday.
It continues a special dispensation granted last year for the duration of the Year of Mercy – which finished Sunday – which gave all priests, rather than just bishops and specially designated confessors, the power to absolve the sin of abortion.
While the practical effect of Francis’ announcement remains unclear, it draws attention to the prevailing theme of his papacy: That the doors of the Church must remain open, just as God’s forgiveness and mercy extend to all those who repent from sin.

End quote

Is that mean
1. Priest don't have authority forgive abortion before pope gives?

2. Pope can change the law? Next time he forgive all sin, mean every body can co ebything.

Here is what his letter states,

"
12. Given this need, lest any obstacle arise between the request for reconciliation and God’s forgiveness, I henceforth grant to all priests, in virtue of their ministry, the faculty to absolve those who have committed the sin of procured abortion. The provision I had made in this regard, limited to the duration of the Extraordinary Holy Year,[14] is hereby extended, notwithstanding anything to the contrary. I wish to restate as firmly as I can that abortion is a grave sin, since it puts an end to an innocent life. In the same way, however, I can and must state that there is no sin that God’s mercy cannot reach and wipe away when it finds a repentant heart seeking to be reconciled with the Father. May every priest, therefore, be a guide, support and comfort to penitents on this journey of special reconciliation.
For the Jubilee Year I had also granted that those faithful who, for various reasons, attend churches officiated by the priests of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X, can validly and licitly receive the sacramental absolution of their sins.[15] For the pastoral benefit of these faithful, and trusting in the good will of their priests to strive with God’s help for the recovery of full communion in the Catholic Church, I have personally decided to extend this faculty beyond the Jubilee Year, until further provisions are made, lest anyone ever be deprived of the sacramental sign of reconciliation through the Church’s pardon."

https://www.vatican.va/content/fran...ttera-ap_20161120_misericordia-et-misera.html

Having a repentant heart means Heaven and God forgives, priests on earth act as pastors recognizing the repentance.

Paul said, in Romans should we go on sinning that grace may abound? nope.

It is basically a pastoral letter that people can come back to Christ rather than be separated from the body of Christ in worship.

 

[TheLearner]

So... The claim has that the papacy can be traced back to Peter. It can. Bad Popes and all.

Remember the story of Cain and Abel? Both sons of Adam and Eve. Abel was good and Cain was bad. They can both trace their roots directly to Adam as he was their father.

Same thing goes with the Papacy. Some Popes were bad and were definitely Cain and not Abel. But they were all ordained as Pope. Therefore they lineage stands. If you look at the leaders of your own country I'm sure you'll find exactly the same thing - some were good and others bad. But they were all still leaders nonetheless.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/001258065407222902?journalCode=tdra
The Development of the Papacy
By Hector Burn-Murdoch · 1954

 

[TheLearner]

I think this analogy is not applicable for pope, or president of my country

This pope you believe ordained by God, not human

President ordained by human.

You may quote a verse that say to Peter God give authority to forgive.

Because Peter real Christian, is bad pope real Christian? Is God ordained bad pope?

https://www.britannica.com/topic/papacy/List-of-popes-and-antipopes

 

[posthuman]

has an extra book, the Gospel of Thomas. (Thomas the doubter)

Never mind the inauthentic book, because apocrypha is apocrypha not scripture anyway - - but Thomas is a believer, not a doubter.
Jesus says so when Thomas calls Him God:

John 20:28-29
And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed [are] those who have not seen and [yet] have believed."

 

[ChoirLoft]

As the title says: do catholics worship God or the pope?

Do they allow the pope to come between them and God?

The Pope does not come between Catholics and God because according to the Vatican THE POPE IS GOD.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

According to a former Catholic nun, the actual spiritual and political structure of authority is;
1. Virgin Mary
2. The Pope
3. Jesus (because He did what Mary told him to do at the wedding)

A Catholic priest will not deny the Trinity (Father Son and Holy Ghost), but will as often as possible substitute Catholic dogma instead.

The Bible is used mostly as a doorstop or a justification for spiritual abuse of authority - just like protestants I must add here.

A Catholic priest, like most of his protestant counterparts, always has one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket.

Nobody cares about God. (Romans 3:11)

It's all about the god business, which is very lucrative if you know how to play it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[Jackson123]

I think those were identified as anti-popes.

This is the problem, from what I read, Peter never in Rome. And catholic tradition story say Peter in rome from 32 to 64. That is why I don't believe in tradition story.

 

[Jackson123]

Here is what his letter states,

"
12. Given this need, lest any obstacle arise between the request for reconciliation and God’s forgiveness, I henceforth grant to all priests, in virtue of their ministry, the faculty to absolve those who have committed the sin of procured abortion. The provision I had made in this regard, limited to the duration of the Extraordinary Holy Year,[14] is hereby extended, notwithstanding anything to the contrary. I wish to restate as firmly as I can that abortion is a grave sin, since it puts an end to an innocent life. In the same way, however, I can and must state that there is no sin that God’s mercy cannot reach and wipe away when it finds a repentant heart seeking to be reconciled with the Father. May every priest, therefore, be a guide, support and comfort to penitents on this journey of special reconciliation.
For the Jubilee Year I had also granted that those faithful who, for various reasons, attend churches officiated by the priests of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X, can validly and licitly receive the sacramental absolution of their sins.[15] For the pastoral benefit of these faithful, and trusting in the good will of their priests to strive with God’s help for the recovery of full communion in the Catholic Church, I have personally decided to extend this faculty beyond the Jubilee Year, until further provisions are made, lest anyone ever be deprived of the sacramental sign of reconciliation through the Church’s pardon."

https://www.vatican.va/content/fran...ttera-ap_20161120_misericordia-et-misera.html

Having a repentant heart means Heaven and God forgives, priests on earth act as pastors recognizing the repentance.

Paul said, in Romans should we go on sinning that grace may abound? nope.

It is basically a pastoral letter that people can come back to Christ rather than be separated from the body of Christ in worship.

If repent, pope don't need to extend forgiveness, it will forgiven.

 

[Jackson123]

The Bible is used mostly as a doorstop or a justification for spiritual abuse of authority - just like protestants I must add here

Yep, some prosperity church use bible for money too.