Do catholics worship God or the pope?
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There was conflict between Peter and Paul in those first days of the church and there are writings from other Apostles that did not make it into what we now accept as the new testament.
For instance, the Orthodox (not RCC) church has an extra book, the Gospel of Thomas. (Thomas the doubter)
Paul is held in high regard because he brought order to a flourishing new religion that was starting to fill rogue. I understand where you're coming from and both are important figures from the first days of Christianity. The faith was in its infancy then and a lot happened very quickly.
For instance, did you know that there was a competing form of Christianity called Arianism?
It was quite big too and it's teaching was that Jesus was only the son of God and not divine IE the Trinity or 'one God in three and three in one' teaching was rejected.
Furthermore, the Orthodox church, who's origins are shared with the RCC has an extra book in it's new testament - the Gospel of Thomas (the doubter) I hear where you're coming from and understand. But I will point out one thing;
The basic version of the new testament as in what writings we accept as forming it were only agreed upon some 500 years after Christ's departure. The .q No and no again.
Peter was first Bishop OF Rome, not IN Rome. It's acknowledgement of when Jesus said to Peter 'You are my rock etc'. we've already partially discussed this and the Peter / Paul thing. There could be an entire thread devoted to the theology of Peter vs Paul and who was greater.
2) You know as well as I do that Jesus stated 'I am the way, the truth and the light, no-one comes to the father except through me' Muslims do believe in Jesus as a prophet and they do believe he will return one day. They deny his divinity however and don't accept he was the actual son of God and therefore did not believe in his resurrection. This erroneous belief appears to have stemmed from an early heretical branch of the church called Arian teaching. This teaching was that Jesus was the son of God, big not God and therefore denied him off his true divinity. Therefore Muslims do know Jesus, but they have it all wrong as to who he really is. It's also why God sends messengers into Islamic nations to show them which they should be worshipping. Look up Zeitoun in Egypt. You'll find out what I mean - the Muslims and Christians were all given a clear sign by the woman on the rooftop going on bended knee before the cross and praying. Millions witnessed the events there.
For instance, the Orthodox (not RCC) church has an extra book, the Gospel of Thomas. (Thomas the doubter)
Paul is held in high regard because he brought order to a flourishing new religion that was starting to fill rogue. I understand where you're coming from and both are important figures from the first days of Christianity. The faith was in its infancy then and a lot happened very quickly.
For instance, did you know that there was a competing form of Christianity called Arianism?
It was quite big too and it's teaching was that Jesus was only the son of God and not divine IE the Trinity or 'one God in three and three in one' teaching was rejected.
Furthermore, the Orthodox church, who's origins are shared with the RCC has an extra book in it's new testament - the Gospel of Thomas (the doubter) I hear where you're coming from and understand. But I will point out one thing;
The basic version of the new testament as in what writings we accept as forming it were only agreed upon some 500 years after Christ's departure. The .q No and no again.
Peter was first Bishop OF Rome, not IN Rome. It's acknowledgement of when Jesus said to Peter 'You are my rock etc'. we've already partially discussed this and the Peter / Paul thing. There could be an entire thread devoted to the theology of Peter vs Paul and who was greater.
2) You know as well as I do that Jesus stated 'I am the way, the truth and the light, no-one comes to the father except through me' Muslims do believe in Jesus as a prophet and they do believe he will return one day. They deny his divinity however and don't accept he was the actual son of God and therefore did not believe in his resurrection. This erroneous belief appears to have stemmed from an early heretical branch of the church called Arian teaching. This teaching was that Jesus was the son of God, big not God and therefore denied him off his true divinity. Therefore Muslims do know Jesus, but they have it all wrong as to who he really is. It's also why God sends messengers into Islamic nations to show them which they should be worshipping. Look up Zeitoun in Egypt. You'll find out what I mean - the Muslims and Christians were all given a clear sign by the woman on the rooftop going on bended knee before the cross and praying. Millions witnessed the events there.
Galatians 2
11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was
In Galatians 2 Paul opposed Peter, indicate that peter is not the first pope. How a member oppose pope to his face.
More than that, apostle focus on Jesus not church. Church consist of human that may error. One must focus on Jesus rather than church.
11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was
In Galatians 2 Paul opposed Peter, indicate that peter is not the first pope. How a member oppose pope to his face.
More than that, apostle focus on Jesus not church. Church consist of human that may error. One must focus on Jesus rather than church.
All I'm going to say on this subject is that the early church was chaotic.
They couldn't even agree on which writings were correct and the collection of books at now know as the new testament weren't even agreed upon until 500 years after Jesus. Furthermore other, non RCC ancient churches - branches of the Orthodox church actually have an extra gospel in the new testament - the gospel of Thomas (the doubter.) Which is a collection of sayings that were attributed to Jesus.
You can believe what you wish as to Peter / Paul. But just know that the RCC / Orthodox churches have a vast collection of writings and knowledge of the early church. Sometimes the things we believe are based upon a combination of scripture and tradition - stories and writings from the earliest days on the church.
They couldn't even agree on which writings were correct and the collection of books at now know as the new testament weren't even agreed upon until 500 years after Jesus. Furthermore other, non RCC ancient churches - branches of the Orthodox church actually have an extra gospel in the new testament - the gospel of Thomas (the doubter.) Which is a collection of sayings that were attributed to Jesus.
You can believe what you wish as to Peter / Paul. But just know that the RCC / Orthodox churches have a vast collection of writings and knowledge of the early church. Sometimes the things we believe are based upon a combination of scripture and tradition - stories and writings from the earliest days on the church.
Wow.
Where on earth did you get that idea from?
Mass is held daily within the Catholic church, not weekly like in many others. Furthermore mass has three main components;
1) Reading passages from the Bible - 2 lots, usually from both old and new testaments.
2) Homily (the old fashioned sermon)
3) Celebration of the Eucharist - whereby the miracle of transmutation occurs. We believe that the eucharist ( host or leavened bread) and wine literally becomes the body and blood of Christ in a literal interpretation of scripture. The words Jesus spoke at the last supper are uttered by the priest as he offers the bread and wine to God.
That is the centre of Catholic life. We even have a thing called adoration of the eucharist. Given that after blessing it, the eucharist becomes the flesh of Jesus, it is sometimes (like weekly maybe) left in a monstrum on the altar for people to come and worship and pray to outside of mass.
Jesus is the reason for the season and the Trinity is the one that gets worshipped.
Where on earth did you get that idea from?
Mass is held daily within the Catholic church, not weekly like in many others. Furthermore mass has three main components;
1) Reading passages from the Bible - 2 lots, usually from both old and new testaments.
2) Homily (the old fashioned sermon)
3) Celebration of the Eucharist - whereby the miracle of transmutation occurs. We believe that the eucharist ( host or leavened bread) and wine literally becomes the body and blood of Christ in a literal interpretation of scripture. The words Jesus spoke at the last supper are uttered by the priest as he offers the bread and wine to God.
That is the centre of Catholic life. We even have a thing called adoration of the eucharist. Given that after blessing it, the eucharist becomes the flesh of Jesus, it is sometimes (like weekly maybe) left in a monstrum on the altar for people to come and worship and pray to outside of mass.
Jesus is the reason for the season and the Trinity is the one that gets worshipped.
I would ask that they go to God in Prayer.
When we go out and do things and head back home, we typically pray together. So far, they've asked me to pray. So even though they tell me they have prayed to Mary, Luke, Mother Theresa, and a few others, If I asked them to pray for me, I would ask them to pray to Christ.
When we go out and do things and head back home, we typically pray together. So far, they've asked me to pray. So even though they tell me they have prayed to Mary, Luke, Mother Theresa, and a few others, If I asked them to pray for me, I would ask them to pray to Christ.
Yes you would. Because God the Father is the supreme ruler of Heaven and Earth. And yes, they should pray to God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus. But you would feel comfortable asking a Christian friend to pray for you right? I've already stated multiple times that Jesus is Lord and saviour and that there is only one risen Christ.
God is a living God and the Kingdom of Heaven is an exciting and dynamic place that interacts with us here on earth. The Bible, old testament and new is littered with stories of interactions between heaven and earth - visions, visitations and acts performed by citizens from the realm of heaven.
And as Catholics we believe that God, the most holy and powerful creator and Heaven and Earth, praise be his name on high, is not bound by earthly concepts - such as time. We as humans experience time as past (which we remember) present - the forever now - and the future, which we look forward to with great hope for the return of Christ in all his glory. Again there is plenty of evidence for God not heaven not being bound by our concept of time. How else would the book of Revelations have been written? How would the prophets of old foreseen the arrival of Christ who would bring a new covenant? Just a couple of examples for you.
So.... by extension we believe that while we still wait here on earth for Judgement day, in heaven it has already happened.
If you've followed me this far down the Catholic rabbit hole and I haven't lost you, then the next part is everyone that has departed on this earth is alive there in heaven right now. And what do they all do? Sit their on fluffy clouds and play harps? Of course not, they work with God to bring glory to his name! And we believe that means that they can interact with us and pray for us, in heaven just as the bible describes.
Long story short, as Catholics we believe we can ask people to pray for us both here on earth and in heaven. And crucially, every single one of them answers to God the Father and nothing is done without his permission. Therefore when we 'pray' to a saint or Mary, we're asking them to pray with us and for us. Clearly one should not spend all day bothering saints, they should spend the majority of their time talking to the trinity.
To Catholic properly is to live in joy and awesome wonder of the most Holy Trinity, that heaven and earth are not that far apart and accept that miracles happen around us everyday.
God is a living God and the Kingdom of Heaven is an exciting and dynamic place that interacts with us here on earth. The Bible, old testament and new is littered with stories of interactions between heaven and earth - visions, visitations and acts performed by citizens from the realm of heaven.
And as Catholics we believe that God, the most holy and powerful creator and Heaven and Earth, praise be his name on high, is not bound by earthly concepts - such as time. We as humans experience time as past (which we remember) present - the forever now - and the future, which we look forward to with great hope for the return of Christ in all his glory. Again there is plenty of evidence for God not heaven not being bound by our concept of time. How else would the book of Revelations have been written? How would the prophets of old foreseen the arrival of Christ who would bring a new covenant? Just a couple of examples for you.
So.... by extension we believe that while we still wait here on earth for Judgement day, in heaven it has already happened.
If you've followed me this far down the Catholic rabbit hole and I haven't lost you, then the next part is everyone that has departed on this earth is alive there in heaven right now. And what do they all do? Sit their on fluffy clouds and play harps? Of course not, they work with God to bring glory to his name! And we believe that means that they can interact with us and pray for us, in heaven just as the bible describes.
Long story short, as Catholics we believe we can ask people to pray for us both here on earth and in heaven. And crucially, every single one of them answers to God the Father and nothing is done without his permission. Therefore when we 'pray' to a saint or Mary, we're asking them to pray with us and for us. Clearly one should not spend all day bothering saints, they should spend the majority of their time talking to the trinity.
To Catholic properly is to live in joy and awesome wonder of the most Holy Trinity, that heaven and earth are not that far apart and accept that miracles happen around us everyday.
This is the danger, no biblical evidence physically dead saint hear our pray.
My ex neibor is catholic. She say Mary told her to fast, she did fast, to the point very week, her neighbor next to her call ambulance, she almost die.
That is what I believe. Devil pretend to be Mary manipulate her.
If you pray to Mary, devil may answer you and you think she is Mary.
I ask my physically living brother and sister to pray for me, not dead Mary.
My ex neibor is catholic. She say Mary told her to fast, she did fast, to the point very week, her neighbor next to her call ambulance, she almost die.
That is what I believe. Devil pretend to be Mary manipulate her.
If you pray to Mary, devil may answer you and you think she is Mary.
I ask my physically living brother and sister to pray for me, not dead Mary.
Mother Teresa?
https://medium.com/lessons-from-history/the-dark-side-of-mother-teresa-b8b9f93df835
Mother Teresa attract a lot of thr rich to donate their money, but in her hospital they use soap to wash serine instate alcohol.
In one article say, she don't use paint killer, to expensive for her, while she went to the first class hospital in New York for her heart treatment.
https://medium.com/lessons-from-history/the-dark-side-of-mother-teresa-b8b9f93df835
Mother Teresa attract a lot of thr rich to donate their money, but in her hospital they use soap to wash serine instate alcohol.
In one article say, she don't use paint killer, to expensive for her, while she went to the first class hospital in New York for her heart treatment.
Okay, let's unpack this
YES Satan does imitate and impersonate heavenly messengers. One must pray to the holy spirit for discernment if one thinks they've had a heavenly encounter.
Mary would NEVER ask someone to fast to the point they need hospitalisation. So either your poor neighbour was deceived or she took it upon herself to carry something to an extreme that was not asked of her . If she was Catholicing properly, she would have consulted her priest after this 'visit' and be would have guided her. Marian visitations follow patterns and can be distinguished easily from fraudulent ones.
Mary's role in the church is as it's mother. We're all children of God and she encourages us to turn to her son, Jesus. She's nothing scary or evil and she 100% submits to the will of the Holy Trinity as do we all. I view belief in her as entirely optional as she's not our saviour or redeemer. But if you've been touched by her genuine presence, it will change your life and faith forever and bring you closer to Jesus.
I'm not on this site to argue the case for Mary and the Saints though. Jesus is our Lord and saviour and if you believe in him, then that's what matters. And it sounds like you do, so may be bless you, keep you strong and healthy and may be walk with you always.
YES Satan does imitate and impersonate heavenly messengers. One must pray to the holy spirit for discernment if one thinks they've had a heavenly encounter.
Mary would NEVER ask someone to fast to the point they need hospitalisation. So either your poor neighbour was deceived or she took it upon herself to carry something to an extreme that was not asked of her . If she was Catholicing properly, she would have consulted her priest after this 'visit' and be would have guided her. Marian visitations follow patterns and can be distinguished easily from fraudulent ones.
Mary's role in the church is as it's mother. We're all children of God and she encourages us to turn to her son, Jesus. She's nothing scary or evil and she 100% submits to the will of the Holy Trinity as do we all. I view belief in her as entirely optional as she's not our saviour or redeemer. But if you've been touched by her genuine presence, it will change your life and faith forever and bring you closer to Jesus.
I'm not on this site to argue the case for Mary and the Saints though. Jesus is our Lord and saviour and if you believe in him, then that's what matters. And it sounds like you do, so may be bless you, keep you strong and healthy and may be walk with you always.
I have. The order of authority for Catholics is: the clergy , traditiion, and lastly, the bible.
Around 300 AD when Constantine took power, he (Constantine) declared himself vicar of Christ ( Christ's representative on earth) and therefore infallible, declared the Church in Rome as the official Church of his empire, and instituted baby baptism so that newborns would be baptized into the Roman Catholic Church and be under his rule.
When Constantine was defeated and no longer in power, the pope at that time still had control over the people and declared himself Christ's vicar on earth with infallibility. Going against Roman Catholic doctrines resulted in condemnation to hell as a heretic, ostracism by the Roman Catholic populous, and excommunication from the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church got so powerful that ruling monarchs employed church leaders such as cardinals, bishops, etc. to help them control the people.
The Medieval Inquisition took place from the 12th century to the 15th century . During that time the Roman Catholic Church wanted to keep the people ignorant and forbade the possessions of Bibles. People caught with bibles were thrown in jail with the heretics , were persecuted and even killed. Estimates of the number killed by the Spanish Inquisition range from 30,000 to millions.
Here is something even most Catholics are unaware of. From 1378 to 1417 was the Great Western Schism. The Italian and French cardinals in Rome elect a French cardinal as Pope. The French Pope decides to move to France and set up the new Catholic headquarters there. The Italian cardinals are furious, condemn and excommunicate the French Pope and all his followers, and elect another Pope but this time Italian. The French Pope condemns and excommunicates the Italian Pope and his following as well.
Around 300 AD when Constantine took power, he (Constantine) declared himself vicar of Christ ( Christ's representative on earth) and therefore infallible, declared the Church in Rome as the official Church of his empire, and instituted baby baptism so that newborns would be baptized into the Roman Catholic Church and be under his rule.
When Constantine was defeated and no longer in power, the pope at that time still had control over the people and declared himself Christ's vicar on earth with infallibility. Going against Roman Catholic doctrines resulted in condemnation to hell as a heretic, ostracism by the Roman Catholic populous, and excommunication from the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church got so powerful that ruling monarchs employed church leaders such as cardinals, bishops, etc. to help them control the people.
The Medieval Inquisition took place from the 12th century to the 15th century . During that time the Roman Catholic Church wanted to keep the people ignorant and forbade the possessions of Bibles. People caught with bibles were thrown in jail with the heretics , were persecuted and even killed. Estimates of the number killed by the Spanish Inquisition range from 30,000 to millions.
Here is something even most Catholics are unaware of. From 1378 to 1417 was the Great Western Schism. The Italian and French cardinals in Rome elect a French cardinal as Pope. The French Pope decides to move to France and set up the new Catholic headquarters there. The Italian cardinals are furious, condemn and excommunicate the French Pope and all his followers, and elect another Pope but this time Italian. The French Pope condemns and excommunicates the Italian Pope and his following as well.
Okay, Mary specifically, no there is not
It's ancient church tradition and you will find evidence of right back to the oldest known churches and tombs.
And then there's the very long history of her appearing to Christians to guide them in their walk with Jesus that goes right back and is still happening to this very day.
So our 'proof' that you're looking for is not in the Bible, but at the same time there's a massive body of evidence from the last 2000 years since it was written. That and the fact that the fruits of her interaction with Christians is to bring greater love and devotion to Jesus.
But as I said, belief in her is entirely optional and as long as you eyes and heart are on Jesus you're on the path to salvation.
It's ancient church tradition and you will find evidence of right back to the oldest known churches and tombs.
And then there's the very long history of her appearing to Christians to guide them in their walk with Jesus that goes right back and is still happening to this very day.
So our 'proof' that you're looking for is not in the Bible, but at the same time there's a massive body of evidence from the last 2000 years since it was written. That and the fact that the fruits of her interaction with Christians is to bring greater love and devotion to Jesus.
But as I said, belief in her is entirely optional and as long as you eyes and heart are on Jesus you're on the path to salvation.